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No. These are garbage planes that will get our people killed. The Fulcrums carry the Alamo, which won't be nearly as effective as the Meteors we already use, and depending on AIM-7 Sparrow equivalents in the 21st century is a great way to make sure that when our pilots get shot at, they will have to choose between breaking lot and evading the missile or taking it on the chin.
Dong Quixote fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 22:13
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No, as much as the idea of a pile of soviet bloc garbage appeals to me this is a terrible investement. Even assuming they all work there's no new capabilities. Can we maybe buy some surplus Mi-8s instead? Utility choppers would be nice and I bet those cost a lot less...
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Apr 8, 2017 22:18
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Yooper posted:
That's putting it mildly. To explain, the Shenyang J-16 is an improved variant of the Shenyang J-11, which in turn is a licensed Su-27. These are trouble. They're equipped with the latest in Chinese radar and air-to-air missile technology. Our Gripens have lower RCS and longer-ranged BVR missiles, but the J-16 has a better radar and they will have capable pilots http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/4225/ The Xian JH-7 is the ground attack aircraft we'd all want if we hadn't spent our time pissing off the Chinese. Plenty of long range stand-off capability, and they carry air-launched cruise missiles. http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/4329/ The Chengdu J-20 is the Chinese take on the F-22. The first warning we will have of these being in the area is when we start losing Gripens to missiles without warning. Our Meteors are longer ranged than their BVR missiles, but if we can't see them, then our range advantage isn't actually any good to us. http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/2463/ Can we get in touch with the Ivanovs for their Su-24s?
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Apr 8, 2017 22:20
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Call up arms dealer Klaus or put out a dish of MiG parts to attract more Phantoms, do not buy any of that stuff.
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Apr 8, 2017 22:30
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We should definitely see if we can get some more phantoms.chitoryu12 posted:I vote no. It's a lot of cash for old planes that have a high chance of at least a few being so lovely that we just need to strip them for parts. Okay. It's quite likely at least two 29s, two things that can dispense enough air to ground unguided bullshit to be worth actually taking off (maybe), and some things we might be able to hang something useful off of that can move fast. I think two 29s alone are pretty close to worth it even if the rest isn't worth a ton.
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Apr 8, 2017 22:36
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So, uh, maybe sinking the Chinese frigate was not the best idea guys. How the hell are we even supposed to fight J-20's? I guess the best we can really hope for is to somehow neutralize Lhasa before the invisible stealth fighters from hell show up and eat all our Gripens.
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Apr 8, 2017 22:36
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PTAB and BetAB cluster munitions are decent in the anti-armor and anti-runway roles respectively, which could possibly be things we're interested in. The Su-25 and MiG-23MLD can also employ Kh-23s, Kh-25MLs, and Kh-29L guided air-to-surface missiles. Together, those capabilities could free some of our Gripens from air-to-ground duty, which I dig, because the opportunity cost of loading a Gripen down with Paveways when they could instead have more Meteors is pretty serious. I'd gladly pay $20m to free up a single $37M Gripen for missions that could really use it. Yes, because trashy Soviet planes are my weakness and at that price they're a steal. Cabbage Disrespect fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 22:47
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How likely would our AWACS be to see the J20s before they murder it? Or is its radar just as unlikely to succeed as the Gripens'?
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Apr 8, 2017 22:48
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Assuming it's roughly comparable to the F-22 it's got an RCS an order of magnitude smaller than an insect. So basically as good as invisible (from the front at least, I dunno what the RCS is from the sides/rear/top). The One Weird Trick to defeating stealth aircraft is a dude with a pair of binoculars and a walkie talkie to watch the runway and tell us what shows up, I think. E: Also, yes on the museum sale. Double yes if they throw in that UN helicopter. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 22:55
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It probably wouldn't see it either.
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Apr 8, 2017 22:55
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stealth is a lie and chinese bootleg stealth is a double lie, we'll be fine bring out the sukhois
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Apr 8, 2017 22:56
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I'm going to say Yes to the museum deal. We already wasted money on two 25's, might as well roll the dice on these. We can resell any of the other 8 planes that luck out to work, plus our useless 60's, and buy more Phantoms and FA-50's.
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Apr 8, 2017 23:00
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Well, great work actives. ...but given that intercept, did you really have to blow up the frig? Ah well. No on the museum firesale, too many potential crocks for the investment. And excuse the reservist and someone very out of his depth, apparently, I'd say we definitely need to think hard about how we deploy the AWACS on the next op. If Quinntan's summary is correct, it's our only chance of detecting the J-16's/20's at anything other than "dead to rights" range to cover our Gripens. And if that's the case, should we consider deploying it closer to areas of operation (with escorts, naturally) to give enough radar coverage to give our flyboys early warning?
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Apr 8, 2017 23:02
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That frigate didn't even have any AA weapons. It was harmless as far as we were concerned.Serpentis posted:And excuse the reservist and someone very out of his depth, apparently, I'd say we definitely need to think hard about how we deploy the AWACS on the next op. If Quinntan's summary is correct, it's our only chance of detecting the J-16's/20's at anything other than "dead to rights" range to cover our Gripens. And if that's the case, should we consider deploying it closer to areas of operation (with escorts, naturally) to give enough radar coverage to give our flyboys early warning? There is one... really dumb option, given our current equipment and the greater geopolitical issues at play here, but it does technically exist. If we bomb the everloving poo poo out of Lhasa while they're on the ground, we might, MIGHT, get some of them on the ground. I don't think the Erieye is going to do much better against a J-20 to be honest. It isn't an E-3 or anything like that. It might see it something like 40 miles out? Unfortunately, by that point the J-20's already shot at it. Quinntan fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 23:06
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For reference: Odds of getting 0 of a plane type are .7813%. We're basically guaranteed one of each. Odds of getting only 1 of a plane type are 13.2813%. That's pretty unlikely, but we might get screwed out of the one we really want. Odds of getting 2 of a plane type are 45.3125%. That's a really solid chance of 2 at least. Odds of getting 3 of a plane type are 34.375% That's a really good chance of getting 3. Odds of getting 4 of a plane type are 6.25%. Awesome but super unlikely. 2 or more are an 85.9375% chance of happening. We're probably going to get at least 6 and more likely somewhere from 8 to 9 planes if we buy this. I'm upgrading to a strong buy. That's peanuts for some capable planes (and some rusty bullshit, but who cares at this price, even if we value them at literally less than their bombload we can justify it. Seriously, it's an odds on bet of $10 mil or 6.6 mil Fulcrums, with the rest free. Don't let the Flankers scare you off. xthetenth fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 23:07
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Yeah No to the Rusty Ruskies. With the comming planes we have our bomb trucks covered.
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Apr 8, 2017 23:07
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Yeah killing the frigate was a big mistake, and one we're about to pay for. Still, it probably wasn't all bad. Embarrassing China certainly won't hurt our standing with NATO, and showing that we're an outfit with both the equipment and the balls to take on a superpower might attract some interesting clients/higher rates.
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Apr 8, 2017 23:09
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Yes to the museum sale. It's a gamble, but a fun one! And if w'ere facing superior planes, our only hope is weight of numbers. And spreading out our flight wings so that our rader coverage is wide enough to hopefully hit it in the sides/rear
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Apr 8, 2017 23:09
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xthetenth posted:I'm upgrading to a strong buy. That's peanuts for some capable planes. Yeah, but these aren't that good as fighters or as ground attack aircraft. I'd rather us not paying anything for mediocre aircraft right now. Edit: Seriously, we don't want these bloody things. Quinntan fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 23:15
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After seeing xthetenth's numbers, and running my own, I'm also voting yes to the museum sale. xthetenth posted:For reference: I'm running the numbers by hand, but I'm getting a different value from you for getting 2 planes. I know I'm wrong because my total probabilities don't add up to 100%. quote:2 planes:
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Apr 8, 2017 23:14
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Quinntan posted:That's putting it mildly. Make sure to check this dude's post guys, OR SHARE MY WATERY GRAVE. From engaging J-20s in past campaigns, if we're lucky we'll see their radar toggle on. Good ELINT will categorize the radar, and we can cross reference that ingame to see if we're about to get dunked on. They aren't F-22 good, but they're definitely befitting of the 5th generation marketing tag. They are also suspected to have a strike capability, so even our ground crews are at stake. If we do detect a contact, but can't get an id within a reasonable range, then assuming the worst is better than the alternative. Bait them into a low probability shot by drawing away and hopefully get them to waste their Pl-12s. Never fought J-16s. Are they roughly Su-35 equivalents? If so, treat them with respect. Meteors will be key there, in a knife fight they'll eviscerate us. If the Meteor can interface with our AWACS then we can fire from far and go defensive, letting the datalinks lead em in. Dandywalken fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 23:17
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Crazycryodude posted:Yeah killing the frigate was a big mistake, and one we're about to pay for. Still, it probably wasn't all bad. Embarrassing China certainly won't hurt our standing with NATO, and showing that we're an outfit with both the equipment and the balls to take on a superpower might attract some interesting clients/higher rates. Balls? Unquestionable. Accuracy? The same. Equipment? Well, once the Chinese stop playing nice we'll see how that turns out. Though true enough about NATO; here's hoping we can parlay that down the road into better profit margins or access to better -- or at least more reliable -- supply lines for NATO-issue kit. Yooper posted:Seems the Chinese radar got a snip of our birds launching on the sea mission. So they phoned the Myanmar government and said to expect bombers. Well, that put all their SAM batteries on alarm and someone got an itchy trigger finger. That 747 they knocked down was a UAE budget airline. The UN gave them a whooping but not as bad as the Emirati UN ambassador who got into a literal fist fight with the Myanmar ambassador. drat, forgot my popcorn for Friday night movie showings. And hey, maybe we can put a good word in with the UAE if this all goes sideways and we need a safe anti-Myanmar haven for a while 
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Apr 8, 2017 23:19
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Psawhn posted:After seeing xthetenth's numbers, and running my own, I'm also voting yes to the museum sale. I didn't do the numbers for 2 planes because I could calculate the rest more easily since 4C2 is 6, rather than the more manageable 4 for 1 and 3. (I totally should've for error checking reasons)1st and 4th should be .5*.5*.25*.75 because after failure the chance is 75% for a success.
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Apr 8, 2017 23:21
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Yes to getting the planes. Odds are good that we'll get ones that are of decent quality in every field, and let's be real here any of those planes would be far better than the Sk60s we have right now. If there's even a chance of modern Chinese planes showing up we're going to need as much firepower as we can get.
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Apr 8, 2017 23:30
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Yes to the airplane lotto. On 3rd thought I want more frogs.
Popete fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Apr 9, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 23:32
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What the people running the maths on this are failing to realise is that... these really aren't all that capable. The MiG-23MLD was the Soviets polishing the turd that is the Flogger, the MiG-29Cs aren't that much better just because the weapons on it are utter poo poo (the R-27 on the 29 has historically only had a 4% success rate, even the Sparrow in Vietnam did way better) and the Su-25As are limited to daylight good weather operations only. They're also all rather short-legged too, and to compound that none of them are capable of in-flight refuelling. DO NOT BUY THESE SHITHEAPS
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Apr 8, 2017 23:35
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xthetenth posted:I didn't do the numbers for 2 planes because I could calculate the rest more easily since 4C2 is 6, rather than the more manageable 4 for 1 and 3. Oh, poo poo. My mistakes were in 1st & 3rd and 2nd & 3rd. Okay, now all my numbers add up. Same as yours.
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Apr 8, 2017 23:37
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Popete posted:We paid 8.5 million per Frogfoot and we have a good chance of getting at least 2 more plus some bonus Fulcrums for 20 million. I think this a fantastic deal and well worth the money. These Frogfoots aren't anywhere near as good as the ones we bought earlier, and the Fulcrums we'd get are fodder for anything the Chinese have that isn't a MiG-21 in fancy dress. These things are death traps.
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Apr 8, 2017 23:40
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I'm fairly confident that the russian fire sale is a bad idea, so obviously we need to do it, but only if we get that rad Mi-26 and the Yak-38. If we're gonna do this, we better go full-retard. Oh wait, no we loving shouldn't. If we're gonna piss of superpowers we can't waste any money on cold war poo poo. If we try to dance with J-20s with what we have now, all we're gonna do is lose pilots, and more importantly, money. My guess is that we're gonna need to depart this theater asap, before china kills most of us, and sends the rest to laogai aka federal pound me in the rear end gulag.
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Apr 8, 2017 23:47
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EDIT: I still want more frogs
Popete fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Apr 9, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 23:48
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Is there any Harriers going around? I'll forgo all my pilot's salary except the basic amount to live if I could get a Harrier for my pilot even if that means swapping out of the AWAC plane. I just love Harriers and I think they could be useful for us anyway. Have them settle down in a small hidden away landing/takeoff area nearer to the Volunteers front line and they could provide quick and easy CAS.
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Apr 8, 2017 23:48
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The brits tried that once, before they realised that moving all the poo poo you'd need to support the harrier (including a big crane because if you've got an issue that requires an engine change, the wing has to come off to give access to it) was just too big a pain in the rear end to bother with.
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Apr 8, 2017 23:52
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Versus the 16 and 20, we'll definitely be better off hitting them on the ground. And it'd have to be decisive if so because there'd be hell to pay after.
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Apr 8, 2017 23:53
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I'm out for a day and  Okay...okay, regarding the museum buy, I say...EDIT: eh, yes. We've already got Frogfoots, and diversity in airframes is fun. Davin Valkri fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Apr 9, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 23:54
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These things are deathtraps that are an order of magnitude more useful and survivable than than our existing SK 60B deathtraps. What's really funny is that the Mig-23s and Mig-29s on offer have infrared search and tracking (IRST), and the Mig-23 has the R-24T, a "long-range" infrared missile. ("Long-range" meaning 24 nmi.) If they're somehow able to sneak close to a stealth J-20, they can potentially hit well above their weight because stealth is a bit less effective vs infrared. I mean, it'd basically take hiding them in the Himalayan valleys, and hoping the J-20s pass directly overhead like complete idiots, and praying for good luck on top of that, but it's... not impossible. Psawhn fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 23:55
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Wonder what a good ELINT plane would cost us. If we could catalogue emissions from the Chinese bsse we'd be better off. I don't think we're going to be able to counter the J-20 plane for plane. We have to make sure they aren't able to gently caress with us before they go gear up. Maybe get our infantry buddies to do some peeping to learn about who we're up against? Dandywalken fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Apr 9, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 23:58
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Quinntan posted:Yeah, but these aren't that good as fighters or as ground attack aircraft. I'd rather us not paying anything for mediocre aircraft right now. Maybe we can buy them to literally feed them to the J20s so they run out of ammo. That's how real militaries plan things, right?
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Apr 9, 2017 00:00
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I'm not sure how much we can count on having good modern aircraft available to purchase. With a bit of luck, this is a lot of on-paper capability for relatively low cost. I say YES to the museum pieces. The planes aren't great, but they significantly expand the ordinance and capabilities we have available compared to the SK-60Bs. They might not be fit for a fight with China's latest and greatest, but they can free up other assets in larger missions and can take care of lower tier targets.
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Apr 9, 2017 00:03
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Please for the love of god, no harriers, in fact, no VTOL fighters, ever. Unless it's a vertical rocket launched starfighter, that we buy explicitly to intercept bears, then it would be tolerable. Again, if we're gonna gently caress around with a superpower, we need to aim higher than gripens or F-16s. Has india gone through with the PAK FA buy in this timeline? India is certainly the power that we've been schmoozing the hardest, maybe we can swing a few of those. Failing that, can we convince them to at least cover our asses with them?
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Apr 9, 2017 00:06
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Psawhn posted:These things are deathtraps that are an order of magnitude more useful and survivable than than our existing SK 60B deathtraps. Which is why everyone has been advocating for us to sell the Sk60s at the earliest possible opportunity. If we're going to replace them, let's not replace them with things that are almost as likely to get shot down. Your plan involves us somehow knowing where the J-20s or even the J-16s are without the Chinese knowing where our elderly MiGs are. We cannot use operational concepts that rely on one in a million odds for success because that will get aircraft shot down and, more importantly, money wasted.
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Apr 9, 2017 00:10
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