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Prester Jane posted:40 years from now all anyone will remember of Hillary Clinton is that she is the fuckup that got Donald Trump elected. Will that be an accurate assessment of her long career? Of course not. Will it be a fair one? Considering the magnitude of damage that her incompetence has wrought on the country I would answer in the affirmative* Do you realize you're essentially saying "how angry and hurt I feel matters more than actual facts"? My fervent hope is that 40 years from now having voted for Donald Trump will be a source of great embarrassment and shame. I'd like kids to react to learning their parents voted for Trump like they would if they found a hooded white robe in the closet. But we live in the present, and we should be operating based on facts rather than your hurt feelings. I get it, I feel hurt and betrayed too, but it makes my skin crawl to see casual denial of facts given easy approval.
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Apr 9, 2017 00:54
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Hillary will go down in history like William Jennings Bryan.
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Apr 9, 2017 00:54
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Do you realize you're essentially saying "how angry and hurt I feel matters more than actual facts"? The fact is that right now the sole remaining public service that Hillary Clinton can perform for the United States is to be remembered as a public example of the price of arrogance and ambition. Reducing her career to a morality tale serves this goal and is fully warranted IMO. Also her arrogance has cost lives, many lives. I'm not upset about hurt feelings, I'm upset about lost lives and destroyed dreams. All of which are the result of Hillary's blind ambition.
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Apr 9, 2017 01:24
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Prester Jane posted:The fact is that right now the sole remaining public service that Hillary Clinton can perform for the United States is to be remembered as a public example of the price of arrogance and ambition. Reducing her career to a morality tale serves this goal and is fully warranted IMO. Arrogance, sure. But ambition? You're upset about ambition from someone running for President? Do you think there has been a single President (or, for that matter non-hereditary head-of-state) who was not a font of ambition? You are far too willing to paint the world the way you want it to be for your morality tales rather than look at things with uncovered eyes. Shbobdb posted:Hillary will go down in history like William Jennings Bryan. Where do I recognize that avatar from? Oh, right. Shbobdb posted:When I would go to Edmonton for work, I used to like to use a lighter to heat the coins up. It would really make the girls jump!
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Apr 9, 2017 01:38
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Do you think there has been a single President (or, for that matter non-hereditary head-of-state) who was not a font of ambition? Eh, Gerald Ford or James Buchanan, but both were pretty terrible presidents and one wasn't even elected.
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Apr 9, 2017 01:52
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Arrogance, sure. But ambition? You're upset about ambition from someone running for President? Do you think there has been a single President (or, for that matter non-hereditary head-of-state) who was not a font of ambition? It is possible to be ambitious without it blinding you. In point of fact I would argue that personal ambition is a personal pitfall that all politicians have to deal with at some point in their career. Hillary allowed her ambition to blind her, and that cost our country dearly. In order to discourage future politicians (who will inevitably experience the same temptation) from falling prey to their own ambition we should endeavor to make sure that Hillary's mistakes serve as an object lesson on the price of allowing yourself to succumb to ambition. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Apr 9, 2017 |
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Apr 9, 2017 01:54
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Prester Jane posted:It is possible to be ambitious without it blinding you. Hillary allowed her ambition to blind her, and that cost our country dearly. In order to discourage future politicians (who will inevitably experience the same temptation) from falling prey to their own ambition we should endeavor to make sure that Hillary's mistakes serve as an object lesson on the price of allowing yourself to succumb to ambition. What exactly was overambitious about Hillary thinking she could be president?
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Apr 9, 2017 01:56
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Prester Jane posted:The fact is that right now the sole remaining public service that Hillary Clinton can perform for the United States is to be remembered as a public example of the price of arrogance and ambition. Reducing her career to a morality tale serves this goal and is fully warranted IMO. go home little bernout, you're drunk
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Apr 9, 2017 01:58
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stone cold posted:What exactly was overambitious about Hillary thinking she could be president? Absolutely nothing. Ignoring the grass roots and progressive base while assuming that you would get the Presidency by default because of who your opponent was exceptionally arrogant however. Arrogance that has cost us all dearly.
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Apr 9, 2017 02:01
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Prester Jane posted:Absolutely nothing. Ignoring the grass roots and progressive base What actually happened is that there was a ton of voter disenfranchisement aimed at minorities and other democratic voters in a lot of important states, which managed to edge them over to Trump.
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Apr 9, 2017 02:02
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stone cold posted:What exactly was overambitious about Hillary thinking she could be president? thinking that the best way to do that was to encourage an unelectable candidate like donald trump to win the nomination instead of actually campaigning
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Apr 9, 2017 02:04
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Prester Jane posted:Absolutely nothing. Ignoring the grass roots and progressive base while assuming that you would get the Presidency by default because of who your opponent was exceptionally arrogant however. Arrogance that has cost us all dearly. Why was it exceptionally arrogant and ambitious? What made this exceptional to you?
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Apr 9, 2017 02:04
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Senju Kannon posted:thinking that the best way to do that was to encourage an unelectable candidate like donald trump to win the nomination instead of actually campaigning stdh.txt
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Apr 9, 2017 02:05
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stone cold posted:stdh.txt did you not follow the wikileaks e-mail scandal or do you think they're fake because the DNC absolutely did say that trump was the best candidate for clinton to win and that they should encourage their success at the RNC convention
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Apr 9, 2017 02:08
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fishmech posted:This didn't happen. The progressive base voted for Hillary. The whiner never votes base didn't. I never said anything about voting, I specifically said that Hillary ignored the grassroots (rank and file Democratic voters) AND the progressive base (generally individuals like those who frequent this forum). Which she did. And while the progressive base held its nose and voted for her anyways their numbers were depressed. The grass roots numbers were also heavily depressed because Hillary did not try and reach out to them. My criticism of Hillary has nothing to do with her qualifications or her policies but rather with the decisions she made as a leader when she was running her campaign. A Presidential campaign is supposed to be a harsh leadership test so that you can get a sense of the person running for President. When she was the one in charge she blew it, and she blew it because of how her ambition and arrogance had blinded her.
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Apr 9, 2017 02:10
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Prester Jane posted:I never said anything about voting, I specifically said that Hillary ignored the grassroots (rank and file Democratic voters) AND the progressive base (generally individuals like those who frequent this forum). Which she did. No. This didn't happen. Some of the stupider ones pretended she did, but that's a very different thing.
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Apr 9, 2017 02:12
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so like did she actually encourage grassroots campaigning in states where she lost (states that routinely voted democrat due to union presence) or did she turn away people who wanted to campaign for her because "we aren't doing that"? because i very strongly remember reading news articles talking about how she did the later and not the former and i feel very weird about dismissing that as "didn't happen"
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Apr 9, 2017 02:14
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Another issue is that many of the poor structural decisions that made her wing lose in '00, '04 general and '08 primary were repeated in her '16 campaign. She had a lot of money and she could ratfuck. But she wasn't good enough at either.
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Apr 9, 2017 02:15
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stone cold posted:Why was it exceptionally arrogant and ambitious? What made this exceptional to you? Has there ever been a successful Presidential campaign that forsook press conferences and public rallies in favor of links to policy papers and fundraisers aimed at the wealthy? Hillary ignored every bit of conventional election wisdom and tried to run the most soulless and over-managed campaign and never for a moment considered that her opponent might just be a credible threat. To me this was exceptional arrogance.
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Apr 9, 2017 02:15
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Senju Kannon posted:so like did she actually encourage grassroots campaigning in states where she lost (states that routinely voted democrat due to union presence) or did she turn away people who wanted to campaign for her because "we aren't doing that"? because i very strongly remember reading news articles talking about how she did the later and not the former and i feel very weird about dismissing that as "didn't happen" Gonna need a pretty big [citation needed] for there being no "grassroots campaigning encouraged" in any state. Also people who want to campaign get turned away by all campaigns in all elections for a lot of reasons, that's normal.
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Apr 9, 2017 02:17
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Senju Kannon posted:did you not follow the wikileaks e-mail scandal or do you think they're fake because the DNC absolutely did say that trump was the best candidate for clinton to win and that they should encourage their success at the RNC convention no I try not to read anything from that rapist's site Prester Jane posted:Has there ever been a successful Presidential campaign that forsook press conferences and public rallies in favor of links to policy papers and fundraisers aimed at the wealthy? lol if it was overmanaged then why did she "forsake" press conferences and rallies? Have you considered that maybe media coverage was really terrible to her because it's been terrible ever since she said she wouldn't bake cookies and people got real mad about that?
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Apr 9, 2017 02:18
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fishmech posted:No. This didn't happen. Some of the stupider ones pretended she did, but that's a very different thing. Her campaign staff would seem to disagree. Huffington Post posted:
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Apr 9, 2017 02:20
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12000 votes can also be accounted for in voter disenfranchisement, or are we pretending that wasn't a thing?
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Apr 9, 2017 02:25
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fishmech posted:Gonna need a pretty big [citation needed] for there being no "grassroots campaigning encouraged" in any state. Also people who want to campaign get turned away by all campaigns in all elections for a lot of reasons, that's normal. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/clinton-campaign-neglect_us_582cacb0e4b058ce7aa8b861 lol i didn't realize someone else linked this exact article that's funny stone cold posted:no I try not to read anything from that rapist's site well then you avoided finding out that the dnc heavily favored clinton, mocked the sanders campaign, and was encouraging trump or cruz to win the primary so clinton could "easily" win against extremists in the general, completely ignoring the fact that extremists became incredibly more commonplace and politically active due to trump's rallies
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Apr 9, 2017 02:26
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That says they did less then they should have in retrospect, which is an entirely different thing from the insane bernout assertion that they did nothing. You know who else would often ignore places and grassroots groups? Obama, both times. Senju Kannon posted:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/clinton-campaign-neglect_us_582cacb0e4b058ce7aa8b861 That doesn't say what you claimed though? Man maybe you people are just illiterate, perhaps that's your problem.
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Apr 9, 2017 02:27
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also let's not ignore the decision to run while under fbi investigation. as much as comey's announcement of the re-investigation of clinton's e-mails cost her, it would have been a non-issue if instead a candidate WITHOUT that stigma had run
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Apr 9, 2017 02:27
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stone cold posted:12000 votes can also be accounted for in voter disenfranchisement, or are we pretending that wasn't a thing? Given that everyone knew the VRA had been gutted and that gubernatorial elections had favored republicans during the Obama administration, any path to victory that didn't account for widespread disenfranchisement would have been gutted naive or arrogant in the extreme. Hillary wasn't naive, so . . .
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Apr 9, 2017 02:29
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Senju Kannon posted:also let's not ignore the decision to run while under fbi investigation. Uh, you realize this could disqualify literally any candidate, because frivolous investigations could be entered to at any time - just like the big investigation into Clinton proved unfounded?
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Apr 9, 2017 02:30
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Senju Kannon posted:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/clinton-campaign-neglect_us_582cacb0e4b058ce7aa8b861 didn't the Russians make up most of those emails Senju Kannon posted:also let's not ignore the decision to run while under fbi investigation. as much as comey's announcement of the re-investigation of clinton's e-mails cost her, it would have been a non-issue if instead a candidate WITHOUT that stigma had run why would she rig both primaries and not the general? also please tell me your george soros theories.
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Apr 9, 2017 02:31
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stone cold posted:12000 votes can also be accounted for in voter disenfranchisement, or are we pretending that wasn't a thing? No, but it would have been overcome if she had run an actual competent campaign. Like I said earlier there were ultimately many factors that contributed to her loss, but the primary one was her own incompetent campaign. As bad as things like the voter disenfranchisement and Comey were they would have been overcome if she had just run a proper Presidential campaign. fishmech posted:That says they did less then they should have in retrospect, which is an entirely different thing from the insane bernout assertion that they did nothing. Whatever fishmech, the article clearly states that she failed in her campaign outreach and that cost her dearly, exactly like I argued. I don't recall arguing that she did quite *literally* nothing, so please stop with the spergy counter. Also I would love to see some citations about how Obama failed to do outreach to the grassroots or progressive base during either of his campaigns.
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Apr 9, 2017 02:32
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fishmech posted:That says they did less then they should have in retrospect, which is an entirely different thing from the insane bernout assertion that they did nothing. i'll admit i hadn't read that article since after the election so it's highly possible, if not probable, that i remembered its assertions differently fishmech posted:Uh, you realize this could disqualify literally any candidate, because frivolous investigations could be entered to at any time - just like the big investigation into Clinton proved unfounded? most candidates can't be "credibly" tied to treason, which was incredibly easy to accuse clinton of and also easy to rile up the base with. the fact that it clearly impacted her voter favorability rating kinda proves that it did have an effect and it would have been better to run a candidate without that stigma. could bernie have faced similar issues from that angle? could obama?
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Apr 9, 2017 02:34
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Prester Jane posted:No, but it would have been overcome if she had run an actual competent campaign. Like I said earlier there were ultimately many factors that contributed to her loss, but the primary one was her own incompetent campaign. As bad as things like the voter disenfranchisement and Comey were they would have been overcome if she had just run a proper Presidential campaign. Wait I thought her arrogant ambitious campaign was overmanaged? How was it incompetent and what does one do to overcome voter intimidation, harassment, and disenfranchisement? Also, like how is a campaign incompetent in so much as, this was not like a landslide victory for Trump? He lost by three million votes.
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Apr 9, 2017 02:35
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stone cold posted:didn't the Russians make up most of those emails she didn't rig the primaries, she paid for ads promoting trump. there's a difference between rigging and attempting to influence voters and as far as i know no one has disputed the veracity of those e-mails, though again i haven't kept up with that news since after the election so it may well be that i'm remembering things wrongly as that is how human memory works
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Apr 9, 2017 02:36
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stone cold posted:Wait I thought her arrogant ambitious campaign was overmanaged? How was it incompetent and what does one do to overcome voter intimidation, harassment, and disenfranchisement? she lost states that were solidly democratic for obama both times that seems pretty bad to me
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Apr 9, 2017 02:36
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Senju Kannon posted:she lost states that were solidly democratic for obama both times that seems pretty bad to me It's almost like there was a ton of voter disenfranchisement passed between 2012 and 2016 and like hecka Russian interference. 🤔 Nah, must be because incredibly qualified woman is actually an arrogant uppity overambitious bitch.
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Apr 9, 2017 02:38
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admits russian interference, thinks e-mails showing the arrogance of the dnc are fake yes this makes sense. do you think russia literally hacked the voting machines or what?
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Apr 9, 2017 02:40
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stone cold posted:Wait I thought her arrogant ambitious campaign was overmanaged? Overmanagement is a form of incompetence. These two terms are not mutually exclusive. Her campaign was both over-managed and incompetent. quote:How was it incompetent and what does one do to overcome voter intimidation, harassment, and disenfranchisement? It was incompetent because she simply assumed she would win and did not do the regular gruntwork that a real Presidential campaign requires. As a Presidential candidate you overcome "voter intimidation, harassment, and disenfranchisement" by working closely with and activating the grass roots. quote:Also, like how is a campaign incompetent in so much as, this was not like a landslide victory for Trump? He lost by three million votes. In our system the vote total is irrelevant and the electoral college decides everything. Hillary's campaign purposefully ran up the vote total by doing things like running TV ads in California while ignoring the rust belt. Hillary's campaign did actually succeed at the goal it set for itself of winning the raw votes by a wide margin, but they engaged in this strategy to the exclusion of concerning themselves with the electoral college. This an act of incompetence rooted in the arrogant assumption that Hillary was invulnerable.
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Apr 9, 2017 02:41
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Senju Kannon posted:admits russian interference, thinks e-mails showing the arrogance of the dnc are fake are you really gonna pretend there was zero Russian involvement in getting trump elected? 
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Apr 9, 2017 02:41
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stone cold posted:didn't the Russians make up most of those emails These are two of the dumbest statements I've read on SA. 1) Wikileaks has almost always contained real information. The real information has been selectively released with a Kremlin friendly filter. 2) It is much easier to rig an apparatus that you are in near complete control of than one where you have more limited influence. When I was banging a police lieutenant in Philly I could get out of pretty much any ticket in Philly. That relationship didn't help in places like NYC or Salt Lake City.
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Apr 9, 2017 02:42
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stone cold posted:are you really gonna pretend there was zero Russian involvement in getting trump elected? the russian interference was hacking the dnc e-mails. that's the interference. coordinated hacks that made clinton look bad by showing people who she did and said behind closed doors.
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Apr 9, 2017 02:43
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