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Everyone complaining about combos: consider being a team player. Combos are fine.
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Apr 10, 2017 13:08
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g0del posted:Gold isn't this insane challenge that only the best of the best of the best can play, and it'll take forever to unlock anything decent only playing bronze. Play bronze to get to know what the different enemies are and how they work, then move up to silver once you hit around level 10 on your character. Then when you're doing good on silver (or if you pick up a vanquisher) try a gold match. Preferably outlaws, since they're the easiest of the three types. You're under the mistaken impression I find a challenge fun.  My big complaint about multiplayer, though, is how bullet sponge-y most enemies seem to be. I should not be able to dump a full heat sink of a charger into a raider at point-blank range and not be certain the mook is dead.
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Apr 10, 2017 13:17
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Zigmidge posted:Everyone complaining about combos: consider being a team player. Combos are fine. I detonated a fire combo with charge earlier that did less damage than the followup punch.
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Apr 10, 2017 13:22
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I like Bronce . I zip around on my Assari Addept, creating my own combinatio explosions, moving around the level at 133% speed. Using a relic pistol that need no ammo. I don't stop, I can't stop. Explosions everywhere. Tried silver, did not like it. Tei fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Apr 10, 2017 |
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Apr 10, 2017 13:22
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RBA Starblade posted:I detonated a fire combo with charge earlier that did less damage than the followup punch. When something that takes two skills to set up is less damage efficient than just pressing the f key, that's not fine. I don't see the problem in making them equivalently powerful to the last game. It's not like combo classes were ever overpowered, they didn't kill any more quickly than any other class... they just did it differently. It gave the game a diversity of playstyle, what the gently caress is wrong with that?
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Apr 10, 2017 14:12
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Cooldowns are a lot longer than in ME3, so combos should be more powerful if anything.
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Apr 10, 2017 14:17
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Gasoline posted:Cooldowns are a lot longer than in ME3, so combos should be more powerful if anything. ^ Not only did they strip out a bunch of primers, but the longer cooldowns mean you can't combo nearly as often. It's no coincidence that the Asari Adept and Human Kineticist are they only decent combo classes. They should have upped the damage to account for how much harder they are to pull off now.
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Apr 10, 2017 14:20
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Again, be team players. All combo classes are fantastic when working together. I can see how working together might be beyond some of you.
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Apr 10, 2017 14:43
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Zigmidge posted:Again, be team players. All combo classes are fantastic when working together. Working together isn't the issue. Anything dies when four people wear it down. The problem is working together to set up and detonate a biotic combo does less damage and kills much slower than the two biotic players just punching the target instead. Also the game crashed on me when I detonated enough combos at once, so, you know
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Apr 10, 2017 14:47
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Skippy McPants posted:^ There are more primers in this game than before. And no, combos aren't harder to pull off now, not if you're working as a team. RBA Starblade posted:Working together isn't the issue. Anything dies when four people wear it down. The problem is working together to set up and detonate a biotic combo does less damage and kills much slower than the two biotic players just punching the target instead. You're under the impression that combos are only done by biotics. A human engineer can easily set up an entire field of cryo detonations, which any number of people can set off.
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Apr 10, 2017 15:00
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Zakmonster posted:You're under the impression that combos are only done by biotics. A human engineer can easily set up an entire field of cryo detonations, which any number of people can set off. I was going to say biotic/tech since I specifically mentioned detonating a fire combo by charging but I didn't think I needed to. It's still the same underlying problem; they're more involved and yet weaker than just punching someone's lights out. Like in ME3 the vanguard relied on the nova combo because nova was also a powerful skill, and also was a detonator. That's where the damage came from. In ME:A nova barely does any damage at all. Shockwave sure doesn't. Charge is weaker as well. Every single thing I can do is weaker than just pressing Y a few times. RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Apr 10, 2017 |
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Apr 10, 2017 15:05
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RBA Starblade posted:I was going to say biotic/tech since I specifically mentioned detonating a fire combo by charging but I didn't think I needed to. It's still the same underlying problem; they're more involved and yet weaker than just punching someone's lights out. Like in ME3 the vanguard relied on the nova combo because nova was also a powerful skill, and also was a detonator. That's where the damage came from. In ME:A nova barely does any damage at all. Shockwave sure doesn't. Charge is weaker as well. Every single thing I can do is weaker than just pressing Y a few times. And at the same time, you couldn't use charge or nova to detonate a fire combo in ME3. The increased flexibility in combos allows for more combos to be set off, which is why the damage is lower this time around. Should they increase combo damage? Yeah, sure. It could actually stand to do a bit more than it does now. But that doesn't mean combos are completely useless now.
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Apr 10, 2017 15:09
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Zakmonster posted:And at the same time, you couldn't use charge or nova to detonate a fire combo in ME3. The increased flexibility in combos allows for more combos to be set off, which is why the damage is lower this time around. Uh, yes Charge could. http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Power_Combos Charge universally detonated. Nova as well. The Vanguard was an explosion machine.
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Apr 10, 2017 15:12
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Biotics in ME3 always detonated tech primers, just not the other way around.
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Apr 10, 2017 15:14
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Zakmonster posted:And at the same time, you couldn't use charge or nova to detonate a fire combo in ME3. The increased flexibility in combos allows for more combos to be set off, which is why the damage is lower this time around. You could, actually. They made tech explosions universal in ME3 so biotics could set them off. The opposite wasn't true though, tech powers couldn't set off biotics but now they can.
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Apr 10, 2017 15:15
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MEA might make it easier for disorganized morons to set off combos by accident, but it wasn't hard for smart, cooperative people to do it in ME3. You've punished having a 95 IQ for questionable benefit.
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Apr 10, 2017 15:22
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Dr. Abysmal posted:You could, actually. They made tech explosions universal in ME3 so biotics could set them off. The opposite wasn't true though, tech powers couldn't set off biotics but now they can. Oh, my mistake then. Must have misremembered. Still, combos are easier to pull off now, not harder. Increasing the damage too much would probably make this already fast game go by even faster. I'm not saying that they shouldn't increase combo damage, I'm saying that combos aren't weak right now and the CC they bring is still valuable. And yes, punching does more damage, but you can only punch one person are a time (maybe 3 if you're the Krogan Gladiator), and you're leaving yourself open to a lot of incoming fire while punching. Works for the Vanguards, works somewhat for the Asari Adept, doesn't work at all for a lot of the other classes.
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Apr 10, 2017 15:29
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RBA Starblade posted:Working together isn't the issue. Anything dies when four people wear it down. The problem is working together to set up and detonate a biotic combo does less damage and kills much slower than the two biotic players just punching the target instead. Check that poster's history in the thread. It's now nothing but condescending and passive-aggressive shots like that which don't actually acknowledge the point anyone else is making. Again: I ran around side by side with an asari adept on gold and used cheated 0-cooldown concussive shots to chain-detonate everything she ran near as fast as humanly possible, and experientially it was still slower to kill things than just sniping or headbutting them. Combos are not competitive with cheats to make them happen constantly. If what we were doing somehow isn't the mystical magical teamwork that unlocks the hidden brilliance of combos that we're all too stupid to see, and we should have done something different, do tell. Right now combos are just a lot of fireworks that you use to knock something over so it doesn't attack you for a couple seconds. They are not competitive with the current two real sources of damage, sniper rifles and melee.
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Apr 10, 2017 15:36
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I was trying out a Krogan Engineer specced out for combos for a while. An Incinerate -> Overload fire combo would leave the Outlaw dogs with over half health left on Silver. An Overload -> Incinerate tech combo would barely make a dent on shields. Sure it'll work, it's just really, really inefficient.
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Apr 10, 2017 15:42
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Digirat posted:Right now combos are just a lot of fireworks that you use to knock something over so it doesn't attack you for a couple seconds. They are not competitive with the current two real sources of damage, sniper rifles and melee. Maybe that's what they designed combos to do this time around. Short-term AoE CC, so the real damage can continue uninterrupted. Yes, a Vanguard can punch things and kill them faster than an engineer, but wouldn't everyone's lives be easier if those things the Vanguard was punching were all stunned or frozen? Yes, there's an argument to be made that classes that rely on powers should only have to use powers to kill things and not have to rely on weapons, but there is no class out there that only relies on one source of damage. Even the Vanguard uses his powers in between punching things, why can't the engineer use his gun to finish off the things he's CCed? (Of course there's the whole thing about most guns being terrible unless a soldier is using them, but that's another thing altogether). In any case, they've already said they're looking at power/weapon balance for the next patch. If it still ends up being lackluster, then we can all quit and play something else.
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Apr 10, 2017 15:53
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Zakmonster, I would agree with you if not for the very long cooldowns/high shield costs that mean combos aren't normally something you'll have available super often, the fact that disabling enemies is already something many powers are designed to do, and the fact that CC doesn't really do anything to non-basic enemies (we could not stunlock berserkers or nullifiers even with infinite combos and concussive shots). The idea of having combos be a flashy CC thing isn't bad, but that doesn't seem to be how they're designed at all. For example I tried getting the energy drain primer ability for the asari sentinel, and found that using both of my 10+ second cooldown abilities on a lone silver assembler for a tech combo left it at over 50% health. So the combo was contributing extremely little damage (and the electrical field left behind did so little that I couldn't even see health bars of enemies inside of it move), but the detonator in that combo would be knocking an enemy down on its own anyway. So the combo doesn't really do anything for you there. Similarly, overload and concussive shot used as detonators will already disable bros on their own without the combo.
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Apr 10, 2017 16:08
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I played a game yesterday with four biotic classes and the one doing the damage had a revenant
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Apr 10, 2017 16:08
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Kaysette posted:Singularity also takes so loving long to recharge, I'm spoiled after playing vanguard to almost 20. Asari Adept owns but I can't get into the human one. I built my first human adept with a spec that tanked singularity. I basically humped pull, and punched dudes off cliffs, or into walls then shotgunned them, using singularity as an oh poo poo button, and (6b) lifting shockwave to disrupt problem enemy clumps. With the second one I decided to try to use singularity no matter how bad it was. And it's... actually not as terrible as I thought? The key is cooldown reduction, which you can get from Singularity itself, as well as from Offensive Biotics. I was running a 1/6/5/5/6 build on my push to 20 last night, finishing first consistently on silver, with a scattershot shotgun (I like the static blast pattern), and the adaptive war amp - no consumables. Sure, combos aren't amazing damage generally, but on silver some weaker enemies (outlaw dogs for instance) I can throw out singularity, combo it with shockwave, and then manually detonate singularity, and they're dead. It's great crowd control, a good debuff, comes back relatively quickly, and does decent damage. The build is hard to kill as well, with saving barrier as well as biotic link to restore shields. I think my final spec for that guy is: 3 Pull 6 Singularity (a, b, a) 5 Shockwave (a, a) 6 Offensive Biotics (b, a, a) 6 Barrier (a, a, b)
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Apr 10, 2017 16:17
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subroc posted:I was trying out a Krogan Engineer specced out for combos for a while. An Incinerate -> Overload fire combo would leave the Outlaw dogs with over half health left on Silver. An Overload -> Incinerate tech combo would barely make a dent on shields. Sure it'll work, it's just really, really inefficient. This was my biggest class disappointment since having self combining lizard wizard seemed theoretically awesome but I could not get it to work out worth a drat even after four respec's. It's still kind of fun in bronze but falls off on higher difficulties.
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Apr 10, 2017 16:17
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Digirat posted:Zakmonster, I would agree with you if not for the very long cooldowns/high shield costs that mean combos aren't normally something you'll have available super often, the fact that disabling enemies is already something many powers are designed to do, and the fact that CC doesn't really do anything to non-basic enemies (we could not stunlock berserkers or nullifiers even with infinite combos and concussive shots). The idea of having combos be a flashy CC thing isn't bad, but that doesn't seem to be how they're designed at all. The tech field stuns all enemies that enter it, which can give you a bit of breathing room, and yes its damage is negligible. But the tech combo will stun a berserker or a nullifier for a short time, and also things around it, which buys you even more time to focus your fire and kill the threat before the threat gets to kill you. That short CC gives you time to complete an objective, or run away, or let your shields regen, or save a teammate. Basically what I'm trying to say is that I've never found using a combo to be a detriment. Once again, I'm all for increasing combo/power damage and getting some of these weapons retuned.
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Apr 10, 2017 16:21
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Just had a Bronze spawn two or three ascendant and a fiend on level 6 at the same time. Huh.
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Apr 10, 2017 16:22
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I can't really take the combos are meant for CC argument when stun trip mines are in the game, or annihilation alone will CC every unarmored thing in the universe. Those two abilities are way better than any combo. The time I appreciate combos despite poopy damage are berserkers for the knock back. Nullifiers? Man who gives a poo poo about those, too busy sniping observers to care.
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Apr 10, 2017 16:41
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I just finished the game this weekend and started up a newgame + this morning before work. Sara Ryder sounds so much dorkier then Scott Ryder. It actually seems like she's 22 unlike Scott.
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Apr 10, 2017 16:48
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Zakmonster posted:But the tech combo will stun a berserker or a nullifier for a short time, It's such a small stun as to not be worth it. Killing an enemy is better than slowing them down for slightly longer than it takes you to finish casting an ability.
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Apr 10, 2017 16:53
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Played with a Human Kineticist player who was just launching guys with pull off the map and had an unreal score.. made me wish I had the character to try.
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Apr 10, 2017 17:04
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Skippy McPants posted:^ You can combo more often because you don't have shared cooldowns anymore. That makes combos way easier and frequent.
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Apr 10, 2017 17:06
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You can actually use any character with pull like a budget kineticist, depending on where you are. If you hold the pull button to start carrying the enemy but release before they fly up to you, they will go rocketing past you at the speed of sound. You can stand on the rooftops of firebase sandstorm and send morons sailing into the abyss behind you like a mass effect jedi. It's fuckin awesome
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Apr 10, 2017 17:12
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Astroniomix posted:It's such a small stun as to not be worth it. It will interrupt whatever they're doing, which means not eating a flak cannon to the face, or a hydra barrage. Sure, the stun might not be too valuable on softer targets, who die pretty quick, but it has its uses.
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Apr 10, 2017 17:16
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DatonKallandor posted:You can combo more often because you don't have shared cooldowns anymore. That makes combos way easier and frequent. They seem less frequent, but maybe that's because classes like the Paladin with snap freeze aren't there any longer. Snap Freeze and a vanguard was hilarious. quote:You can actually use any character with pull like a budget kineticist, depending on where you are. If you hold the pull button to start carrying the enemy but release before they fly up to you, they will go rocketing past you at the speed of sound. You can stand on the rooftops of firebase sandstorm and send morons sailing into the abyss behind you like a mass effect jedi. It's fuckin awesome Lash wasn't a very good skill on the Phoenix classes in ME3, but it was a fun one.
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Apr 10, 2017 17:18
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RBA Starblade posted:They seem less frequent, but maybe that's because classes like the Paladin with snap freeze aren't there any longer. Combos seem less frequent because you can't get bonus recharge from weapon weight anymore.
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Apr 10, 2017 17:24
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Digirat posted:You can actually use any character with pull like a budget kineticist, depending on where you are. If you hold the pull button to start carrying the enemy but release before they fly up to you, they will go rocketing past you at the speed of sound. You can stand on the rooftops of firebase sandstorm and send morons sailing into the abyss behind you like a mass effect jedi. It's fuckin awesome heres a cap of me doing it 
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Apr 10, 2017 18:37
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RBA Starblade posted:They seem less frequent, but maybe that's because classes like the Paladin with snap freeze aren't there any longer. Lash was goddamn hilarious for sending weak/weakened enemies flying off. I miss it.
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Apr 10, 2017 18:54
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chami posted:Combos seem less frequent because you can't get bonus recharge from weapon weight anymore. Yeah, I miss that. These days it's 100% or a penalty.
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Apr 10, 2017 19:38
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So I only have an Apex Rating of 2000, which is probably a decent measure of how much I've played? Anyways, what do you guys think so far with high played time? Do you think This is as fun as ME3 multiplayer or does it just make you want to go back to ME3 multiplayer? I remember ME3 multiplayer being a little more tactical.. I find this one to be more quick and chaotic. Been playing Vanguard a lot because it seems the tankiest fun so far, but I've been trying to get the soldier and krogan engineer going.
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Apr 10, 2017 20:10
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DatonKallandor posted:You can combo more often because you don't have shared cooldowns anymore. That makes combos way easier and frequent. A human adept with no weight penalty had a singularity cooldown of 2.39 seconds (no idea why I remember it this exactly). The cooldowns for warp and shockwave were similar. So you could perform a combo detonation in less than 3 seconds even with a shared cooldown. And you could do it repeatedly every 5 or so seconds. You barely had time to even shoot your gun. The human adept wasn't even particularly quick as far as it went, other classes could combo more quickly.
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Apr 10, 2017 20:16
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