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sassassin posted:If they overbooked but everyone showed, and then realised that four beds were needed for the cleaners that were essential to another night of guests to be roomed (because a member of staff forgot before handing out the keys), and for some reason none of the guests would accept the offer of $800 worth of meals & drinks in the restaurant to be roomed across the street instead, and it was against a bunch of regulations to let anyone sleep in the hallway, and the people actually in charge of policy at the hotel weren't available, then yeah, if someone chosen by lottery refused to move were confronted by 1 then 2 then 3 security personnel, then I think they might? A series of mistakes were made, sure, but they didn't have to assault a person and drag them from the plane. Also, your analogy doesn't quite work. They could just give the room across the street to the staff. It's more like they gave you $800 to go home today and come back tomorrow, and they'd pay your cab far there and back. Even if they are paying for it, it's a pretty big hassle, and you might need that room in the morning for something important.
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Apr 10, 2017 20:43
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Nothing important has ever happened in the morning in a hotel room. That time is for shame and/or wondering why you can't get your own room as dark and cold.
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Apr 10, 2017 20:49
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Solice Kirsk posted:Every second of every flight you are breathing in dozens of people's recycled farts. Enjoy your flight! Seats ain't non too clean, either: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GWXinarYic That's a bus, but I imagine the same principle applies.
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Apr 10, 2017 20:52
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SpacePig posted:A series of mistakes were made, sure, but they didn't have to assault a person and drag them from the plane. Of course the analogy doesn't completely work. Hotel rooms are not plane seats. As has been said, 9 times in 10 not everyone shows up, 99 times in a hundred enough people are willing to take the offer to delay, and 999 times in a thousand your staff remembers to set aside seats for the airline staff before boarding takes place. And 1 time in ten a jumped up bouncer won't resort to physical violence when given the excuse.
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Apr 10, 2017 20:53
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Solice Kirsk posted:Nothing important has ever happened in the morning in a hotel room. That time is for shame and/or wondering why you can't get your own room as dark and cold. Depends on what happened the night before
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Apr 10, 2017 20:55
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Iron Crowned posted:Last time I flew on business, one of my flights got delayed, and I didn't land at my destination until 11pm. I can assure you that I was thrilled that they gave away my rental car, and tried to hype up the mini-van I was given instead. But did you make it home in time for Thanksgiving dinner?
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Apr 10, 2017 20:58
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Iron Crowned posted:Depends on what happened the night before Hey, I said shame.
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Apr 10, 2017 20:59
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:I legit don't understand that, because it's not like doing a no-show gets you a refund. Wouldn't someone missing their flight actually be cheaper, since you don't have to burn fuel for their weight and luggage? Cheaper than flying that person, yes. Not cheaper than the opportunity cost of flying an empty seat. Krispy Kareem posted:Remember airlines have been making record profits since oil prices finally came down. They have not reversed fees related to those high fuel costs and haven't expanded their planes or routes, preferring to maximize the number of passengers per flight. No idea where you're getting that. When oil prices fell, so did fares. Considerably.
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Apr 10, 2017 21:21
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Phanatic posted:No idea where you're getting that. When oil prices fell, so did fares. Considerably. I didn't say fares, I said fees. The checked bag fee was in response to high fuel prices and has not gone away. If anything we now have even more fees, like paying for marginally better seats in coach. Airlines are making money hand over fist, which is fine. For the most part the last 30 years has been pretty lovely for profits. But they could stop overbooking flights and still make plenty of money under their current fee structure.
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Apr 10, 2017 21:29
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Why are you arguing with Phanatic about anything is beyond me
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Apr 10, 2017 21:31
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Whatever happened to the aerobiz lp? It was really good.
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Apr 10, 2017 21:35
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ilmucche posted:Whatever happened to the aerobiz lp? It was really good. BUY MORE DOUG
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Apr 10, 2017 22:04
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Maybe air travel shouldn't be a for profit industry.
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Apr 10, 2017 22:38
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Boywhiz88 posted:Maybe air travel shouldn't be a for profit industry. Neither should cell phones or internet access, probably. We're bad at clocking the shift from luxury to necessity.
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Apr 10, 2017 22:40
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Neither should cell phones or internet access, probably. We're bad at clocking the shift from luxury to necessity. 
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Apr 10, 2017 22:41
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Solice Kirsk posted:Smoking is cool. I don't even smoke, but I know it looks awesome, makes you look intriguing, and gives you something to do with your hands at parties. You're blowing out smoke like some sort of dragon. Not to mention it's a drug and drugs are cool too. Yeah, smoking is bad rear end.....what were we talking about again? Yeah
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Apr 10, 2017 22:52
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ravenkult posted:Why are you arguing with Phanatic about anything is beyond me And he's doing it in two loving threads at the same time
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Apr 10, 2017 22:52
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it turns out the tendency of the rate of profit to fall is a real dick
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Apr 10, 2017 23:05
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Further repercussions and details. They weren't police, they were "aviation security officers" in the employ of the city. http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/viral-video-kills-chance-aviation-security-officers-will-be-armed/amp/ quote:[Alderman] Zalewski said he talked to Aviation Commissioner Ginger Evans about the incident and she was furious. Does that mean the idea of arming the officers is dead? Four whole months of training before you get to beat up a citizen to protect an airline's bottom line.
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Apr 11, 2017 00:39
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quote:“I’m not against people making a decent salary. But if you’re not gonna put a gun on them, we should get somebody cheaper,” he told the Chicago Sun-Times last month.
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Apr 11, 2017 00:49
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quote:But if you’re not gonna put a gun on them, we should get somebody cheaper Can't argue that logic.
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Apr 11, 2017 00:50
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Brilliant cross-marketing strategy for y'all https://twitter.com/UnitedOverBooks/status/851541810619043845
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Apr 11, 2017 00:53
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Grey Fox posted:lmao this guy knowing the going rate for a gunman vs a dude with a steel pipe That's the Chicago way.
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Apr 11, 2017 00:54
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Pastry of the Year posted:BUY MORE DOUG  it got me to play aerobiz. What a fun game.
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Apr 11, 2017 05:16
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quote:He was approached a few more times after that in order to gain his compliance to come off the aircraft, and each time he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent. United CEO's non apology, emphasis mine. https://consumerist.com/2017/04/11/united-airlines-ceo-passenger-dragged-off-flight-was-disruptive-and-belligerent/ The incident also reached China: http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/11/asia/united-passenger-dragged-off-china-reaction/
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Apr 11, 2017 15:52
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GrandpaPants posted:United CEO's non apology, emphasis mine. https://consumerist.com/2017/04/11/united-airlines-ceo-passenger-dragged-off-flight-was-disruptive-and-belligerent/ ...commenters suggesting new slogans such as "not enough seating, prepare for a beating." Could be a good slogan to put on a billboard.
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Apr 11, 2017 16:04
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Not enough seating? Hope that the staff realise before boarding or that a few people accept the offer of a later flight or if a computer selects you at random graciously leave the plane and accept compensation before local security gets called Or prepare for a beating, cry and scream a lot, and then get back on the plane when you somehow escape the clutches of local aviation security.
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Apr 11, 2017 16:11
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GrandpaPants posted:United CEO's non apology, emphasis mine. https://consumerist.com/2017/04/11/united-airlines-ceo-passenger-dragged-off-flight-was-disruptive-and-belligerent/ I always like descriptors like "Disruptive and belligerent", because unless they were the ones that instigated it, it usually means that the person was just refusing to do what they were told by someone who had no real authority to tell them what to do. Like, they weren't violent or anything, and they technically had a right to be there. How do we make it look like the incident was their fault? Also, reading the actual letter, this kind of sticks out to me: quote:We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions. I know wording is chose very carefully to minimize fault with the airline, but he had already been boarded. The guy didn't get turned away at the gate, and then break past security. The guy was in his seat on the plane. Maybe "boarding" has a broader definition than I'm aware of, but it seems silly to phrase it this way.
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Apr 11, 2017 16:20
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sassassin posted:Not enough seating? Hope that the staff realise before boarding or that a few people accept the offer of a later flight or if a computer selects you at random graciously leave the plane and accept compensation before local security gets called Do you think no one could find an excuse to hit you in the face?
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Apr 11, 2017 16:20
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Do you think no one could find an excuse to hit you in the face? Of course not. Where have I suggested this?
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Apr 11, 2017 16:34
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SpacePig posted:it usually means that the person was just refusing to do what they were told by someone who had no real authority to tell them what to do. If you buy a ticket to fly on someone's plane I would argue that they have the authority to tell you to get off that plane. You are not a free sovereign citizen with a right to do as you please. The response of the local security officer was perhaps overboard but the staff followed the rules and regulations laid out by their employers and the government after an unfortunate situation arose.
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Apr 11, 2017 16:40
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All the excuses coming out of United seem to indicate he was denied boarding, so they definitely need some clarification on what 'boarding' actually means. I guess it sounds better to say he was denied rather than permitted and then forcibly removed. And how the heck did a bleeding and possibly concussed guy escape airport police and slip past the gate employees to get back on the plane again? That's some Die Hard level poo poo there.
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Apr 11, 2017 16:45
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sassassin posted:If you buy a ticket to fly on someone's plane I would argue that they have the authority to tell you to get off that plane. You are not a free sovereign citizen with a right to do as you please. If you rent a room in someones house they have the authority to tell you to get out! Except no they don't because we have laws that say when you pay for a living space you have rights to that space. Airlines should be no different, if you pay for a seat then you have a right to that seat for the duration of the flight.
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Apr 11, 2017 16:47
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And they're already pulling a black teenager and digging up the guy's past claiming he was no angel.
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Apr 11, 2017 16:56
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Glazier posted:If you rent a room in someones house they have the authority to tell you to get out! Except no they don't because we have laws that say when you pay for a living space you have rights to that space. Airlines should be no different, if you pay for a seat then you have a right to that seat for the duration of the flight.
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Apr 11, 2017 16:56
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sassassin posted:If you buy a ticket to fly on someone's plane I would argue that they have the authority to tell you to get off that plane. You are not a free sovereign citizen with a right to do as you please. The plane isn't a private residence or something. If they had an actual excuse to take the guy off (i.e.: He was violent, or was on the plane despite being previously denied boarding), that's one thing, but his name was basically drawn out of a hat of people travelling alone after he had already been allowed to board the plane. I'm not necessarily saying he's fully in the right, as there's probably text on the ticket purchase agreement specifically stating that your flight can basically be changed on the whims of the airline, but it's still pretty lovely to do. Tiggum posted:Also it seems like it should be illegal to charge people for a service that you have no intention of providing. Like, if you have ten seats and you sell twelve, you're intentionally selling things you don't have. That sounds like fraud to me. I think that's why they go through the rigmarole of asking for volunteers in exchange for compensation, and then giving compensation to any told to leave involuntarily. Like, they're still going to honor your ticket, they're just giving you compensation for it not being honored in the exact method you initially asked for.
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Apr 11, 2017 17:04
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Krispy Kareem posted:And how the heck did a bleeding and possibly concussed guy escape airport police and slip past the gate employees to get back on the plane again? That's some Die Hard level poo poo there. He had to get home.
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Apr 11, 2017 17:09
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SpacePig posted:I know wording is chose very carefully to minimize fault with the airline, but he had already been boarded. The guy didn't get turned away at the gate, and then break past security. The guy was in his seat on the plane. Maybe "boarding" has a broader definition than I'm aware of, but it seems silly to phrase it this way. It's CYA on their part. United's Contract of Carriage draws a distinction between being denied boarding (Rule 25) and being removed from the plane (Rule 21). Rule 25 is about the compensation they'll offer you if you're denied boarding in the event a plane was oversold (which this one wasn't. It wasn't a case of more customers with tickets then there were seats, every customer had a confirmed reservation and a seat on a the plane but United wanted employees to have four of those seats instead). Rule 21 is about the circumstances in which they can kick you off a plane you're already on. And none of those circumstances applied here. United just straight-up violated its own contract of carriage. sassassin posted:If you buy a ticket to fly on someone's plane I would argue that they have the authority to tell you to get off that plane. You are not a free sovereign citizen with a right to do as you please. Neither is the airline. If you as an airline enter into a contract with a passenger to sell him a ticket and fly him to a location, I'd argue that you're required to abide by the terms of that contract and not just make poo poo up as you go along. quote:The response of the local security officer was perhaps overboard but the staff followed the rules and regulations laid out by their employers and the government after an unfortunate situation arose. Except, no, they did not. They violated their own rules and regulations, and the contract they entered into with the customer. Tiggum posted:Also it seems like it should be illegal to charge people for a service that you have no intention of providing. Like, if you have ten seats and you sell twelve, you're intentionally selling things you don't have. That sounds like fraud to me. There are statutory permissions for overselling flights (14 CFR 250), so it's definitionally not fraud (and again, overselling is standard in a lot of industries). But beyond that, it's irrelevant here, because this flight was not oversold. Phanatic has a new favorite as of 17:17 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 17:14
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i can't believe sassassin has to live in the sewer now
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Apr 11, 2017 18:13
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https://twitter.com/NickNicotera/status/851791261006614530
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