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Sampatrick posted:For the Modern specialists in this thread, what keeps a deck like this from being competitively viable? It seems like it should have game in every matchup, but every Flash style deck I see ends up being in red for reach and doesn't seem to focus so much on the Flash element of the deck. However, I feel like the trifecta of Tarpit, Tasigur, and Fatal Push make black a much stronger compliment even if you don't have the reach of red. Being able to have the powerful late game of Snap + Vision + Cryptic against Jund/Abzan in addition to being able to play more aggressively with Clique + Resto + Tasigur + GQ against big mana decks seems like a very good place to be, and the removal suite matches up very well against your Death's Shadow and Eldrazi decks. I dunno, it seems like a deck like this should be fairly well positioned in the meta. What makes it not good enough? I don't think your deck focuses on the Flash element of the deck enough either TBH. It feels like you're trying to split the difference between straight Esper Control and Flicker/ETB stuff but not quite getting there. Being able to hold up mana all the way to an opponet's EOT is cool and all but you eventually have to win with that stuff. Also I think Colonnade beats any other manland you can run in UWx, and probably any other manland besides Raging Ravine. And I don't like more than two Tasigurs in a deck ever, especially if you want to fill it with stuff for Snaps (yes I know Tasigur puts stuff in your yard too) More generally I don't think straight UWx control is quite there yet in Modern, and I say this as someone who's working on an Esper control deck. There's always one or two people at my store running UWx (usually UW or UWR) and unless I'm showing up with a joke deck like Turbofog it's always been an easy 2-0  I wish it were viable for the sake of variety but either something's missing or no one's figured it out yet.
C-Euro fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Apr 7, 2017 |
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Apr 7, 2017 23:11
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Yeah tasigur is good in multiples when you have thought scour. He's ok as a singleton without. I'll also disagree slightly above colonade being better than all other UWx manlands just because there's an argument for creeping tar pit, it's just usually harder to use since a lot of control decks are primarily UW.
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Apr 7, 2017 23:55
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I think what someone else said about answers in modern being narrow was onto something. For the past couple weeks I've been experimenting with tempo elements in Ad Nauseam mainboard (Blessed Alliance, Darkness, Collective Brutality), but the spells that are an absolute blowout in one match may be completely useless in the next, so I obviously went back to all-in combo & left a couple strong contenders for the sideboard. That being said, I love Esper but I think Grixis has a greater ability to turn the corner once it has a card advantage. I have seen control lists in Esper that are 100% draw-go with limited win-cons (Secure the Wastes/Celestial Colonnade), but I think narrow answers make it difficult for any control deck in a format with such aggressive diversity.
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Apr 8, 2017 00:07
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myDad posted:I think narrow answers make it difficult for any control deck in a format with such aggressive diversity. Yeah, for better worse Modern is really wide open right now though locally I'm starting to see a slight narrowing around Death's Shadow. This makes control, where you need to understand the opposing deck, a tougher thing to pilot. Fingers McLongDong posted:I'll also disagree slightly above colonade being better than all other UWx manlands just because there's an argument for creeping tar pit, it's just usually harder to use since a lot of control decks are primarily UW. Creeping Tar Pit is only a step behind (I'm putting those in my own Esper Walkers deck because I'm too cheap for Colonnades  ) but flying might as well be unblockable in some matchups, plus 4 toughness puts it out of Bolt range. It's also bigger than any flying creature that sees regular play in Modern, and survives combat with them. The only time where I would definitely want Tar Pit instead is if you have a lot of Lingering Souls in your meta, but even then Colonnade has vigilance so it getting chump blocked is a little less painful.
C-Euro fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 00:18
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My experience with playing 0 Thoughtscour and 3 copies of Tasigur tells me that it's absolutely fine. Tasigur ends up costing 2-3 mana almost all the time, and he'll be 1 mana the rest of the time. You're probably not going to be casting Tasigur #3 most of the time, but at the same time you don't draw Tasigur #3 most of the time either. People worry too much about casting Tasigur on t2 when there's absolutely no deck in Modern that can consistently do that on t2. Tasigur just plays into the flash game plan by being a cheap threat that you can cast while holding up removal or permission. I think in practice Colonnade is a terrible manland in Modern even if on paper it's stronger than your other options. 5 mana is such a steep requirement, it's hard to justify it when you have other options. I actually think this deck gets to be more aggressive than Grixis Control, which is a pretty good deck. Having access to more threats and GQ makes every matchup, and in particular Tron, actually winnable. You always get the game plan of just Clique + Resto beats. I don't understand the argument that holding up mana is great if you can't win with that stuff - that's exactly why you build your draw-go deck like this rather than in a traditional Wafo-Tapa style. Having Cliques and Restos, as well as Tasigurs, means that you can actually clock your opponent consistently. I don't think that this deck is tier 1, but I think it has more going for it than you expect on first look. It's essentially a revision of Grixis Control that tries to let you be more aggressive while not forcing you to play bad cards like Delver of Secrets.
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Apr 8, 2017 00:25
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I thought UW Control was supposed to be the DS killer? You just grind them out with Condemn and Blessed Alliance. Then play 3-4 Spreading Seas and Ghost Quarters for them and Tron. They are so basic lite and color intensive it can lick them out of a game.
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Apr 8, 2017 00:25
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Well yeah if you like the deck and it does well for you then go for it, don't let the guy who still unironically plays Mill in 2017 tell you otherwise. I do think 4 of both Path and Push is excessive though unless you have a lot of creature decks running around, especially with 4x Snapcaster letting you re-use them. You could get really sassy and run Torrential Gearhulk as a finisher, but maybe it's not necessary if you're running and doing well with Tasigur.
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Apr 8, 2017 00:57
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I am going to unironically play mill at a home court 1k tomorrow. I stopped playing it when Treasure Cruise was legal but never really took it apart. I don't have snaps but I'll improvise (and it never worked for me in my builds)
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Apr 8, 2017 02:05
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C-Euro posted:Yeah, for better worse Modern is really wide open right now though locally I'm starting to see a slight narrowing around Death's Shadow. This makes control, where you need to understand the opposing deck, a tougher thing to pilot. I actually have both manlands and prefer tar pit in my esper walkers build. 2 mana cheaper to activate is a big difference in a tapout style control deck and I think they're a little better against walkers, at least against tron since Worldbreaker can't get in the way. I really think it comes down to how many UW lands you need though. Colonades are better overall I think because the decks they fit in more are just better than the other options, along with the points you made. I still love me a stirring wildwood though, what do I know!
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Apr 8, 2017 02:29
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As far as Colonnade vs Tar pit goes in my esper draw-go control list I'm currently playing 2/2 Pits/Colonnades. I have found that I often would rather have pit than colonnade, so I'm thinking of swapping over to 3/1 or even 4/0. Fatal push really pushed the list towards more black mana, and the only WW card in the deck is verdict.
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Apr 8, 2017 02:50
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Guy at my shop was playing UW control in modern and ended up 1-1-2. Both draws were against grixis control I think.
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Apr 8, 2017 02:53
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L0cke17 posted:As far as Colonnade vs Tar pit goes in my esper draw-go control list I'm currently playing 2/2 Pits/Colonnades. I have found that I often would rather have pit than colonnade, so I'm thinking of swapping over to 3/1 or even 4/0. Fatal push really pushed the list towards more black mana, and the only WW card in the deck is verdict. I'm actually doing 2 pit/2 vent in esper tapout, but it's honestly a BW control deck with a blue splash for snap, visions, and narset. Shambling vent is far and away the best manland to come out of the second half of that cycle, abzan lists mostly run 2 now. Manlands are the best.
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Apr 8, 2017 02:59
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Lawnie posted:Taking this to FNM tonight. Hoping I don't run into grixis death's shadow or ponza, the only two matchups I've played. They're bad matchups, extremely bad post-SB. Trip report: I need so much practice. Went 1-2 with losses against a poxy bw tokens build and grixis death's shadow, won against affinity. On one end step I pumped a ballista to 12 counters only to burn 9 to wipe my opponent's board. I need a lot more reps but I'm not entirely sure this is the correct build for this shell. I think the version closer to traditional affinity is better, but I really don't know.
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Apr 8, 2017 03:28
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Snacksmaniac posted:I am going to unironically play mill at a home court 1k tomorrow. I stopped playing it when Treasure Cruise was legal but never really took it apart. Hell yeah we are Legion. Gonna need this trip report when you're done, tia If it's not too late, go up to 4 Mesmeric Orb, trust. Maybe some Set Adrift in the SB too.
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Apr 8, 2017 03:29
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3-0 with a bye on Ad Naus tonight, new Gideon is going to be so brutal though. Talked to a lot of people about it tonight & apparently it is already selling for $40+ with presales. Luckily, I mentioned Platinum Angel masterpiece while looking for trades & found the one guy on U Tron that will look for some Goryo's Vengeance pieces to trade for it!
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Apr 8, 2017 04:58
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I went 4-0-1 to win FNM tonight with Titan Breach (and a bye). I beat Aristocrats, Elves, Blue Moon, and then drew with a Scapeshift deck because it locked him in 4th and me in first. I cut the SSGs I'd been running and added 2 Combustible Gearhulk. It was moderately ok. It got Elves to scoop a game. Seems not too terrible. I got kills with Worldspine Wurm, Emrakul, and Gearhulk tonight.
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Apr 8, 2017 05:30
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C-Euro posted:Hell yeah we are Legion. Gonna need this trip report when you're done, tia I can't find my other two orbs so I have two. I am grabbing set adrift. I'm playing breaking until expertise is fixed too.
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Apr 8, 2017 05:50
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My FNM with abzan company went really well. I won against everything but tron with grafdigger's cage and ended up in third. I tried a build with four renegade ralliers and I'm never leaving home without them again. You can drop the wall of roots because you can get all the mana you need by rebuying fetchlands with rallier. It leaves you more dense on action but still very fast, not to mention the backup Saffi Eiriksdotter combo they enable.
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Apr 8, 2017 06:45
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EvilBeard posted:I went 4-0-1 to win FNM tonight with Titan Breach (and a bye). I beat Aristocrats, Elves, Blue Moon, and then drew with a Scapeshift deck because it locked him in 4th and me in first. You're running the Wurm?? Are the tokens left over from it & trample often relevant over Annihilator 6 & flying? myDad fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 07:12
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Snacksmaniac posted:I am going to unironically play mill at a home court 1k tomorrow. I stopped playing it when Treasure Cruise was legal but never really took it apart. Yeah snap is probably the worst card and the best card at the same time. I run 2 but could cut them for Orb 4 and another fatal push.
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Apr 8, 2017 07:14
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uninverted posted:My FNM with abzan company went really well. I won against everything but tron with grafdigger's cage and ended up in third. I tried a build with four renegade ralliers and I'm never leaving home without them again. You can drop the wall of roots because you can get all the mana you need by rebuying fetchlands with rallier. It leaves you more dense on action but still very fast, not to mention the backup Saffi Eiriksdotter combo they enable. I actually cut all the Ralliers from my build. Tried 3 rallier/1 saffi and didn't like it, then cut rallier one by one as weeks went on. I played with 1 at a 2k and it was alright but I had several times where it was a no-value 3/2, especially when I companied into it and didn't have anything to sac before company was cast. Currently using a 3rd eternal witness instead and I think I like it more personally, but abzan coco lists are so flexible I don't think it's wrong either way, I do think rallier is pretty good if you're on a version with Voice but I'm also on no voices currently. I'm also trying no walls after looking at a few recent top-placing lists in favor of playing 4 nobles instead of 3, I think being able to go wider against shadow decks seems pretty good. Can't decide what I like better though.
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Apr 8, 2017 09:33
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went 4-0 with skred last night trying to warmed up for the scg classic sunday. really liking mainboard ratchet bombs and sideboard rabblemasters
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Apr 8, 2017 13:19
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myDad posted:You're running the Wurm?? Are the tokens left over from it & trample often relevant over Annihilator 6 & flying? The thing about the Wurm is that it's green so you can get it with Summoner's Pact. It's also not that hard to cast with all your ramp. I used to run 2 Emrakul, now I run 1 of it, one Wurm. EvilBeard fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Apr 8, 2017 |
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Apr 8, 2017 14:25
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Looking at a lot of abzan midrange sideboards and seeing 2 Gideon AoZ in there. I used to run 1 in the side and it was great but is there any merit to running something like 1 Gideon and 1 Elspeth KE or Garruk Relentless instead of 2 Gids? Or is the common consensus that Gideon is good enough that it's worth running 2 and doubling up vs having 2 different walkers on board.
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Apr 8, 2017 15:17
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EvilBeard posted:Combustible Gearhulk. lol that's awesome, I'm half-tempted to try it out. You're pulling enough lands out of your deck that it could probably be a little better than you think. Did you get to flip an Emrakul or Worldspine to it? Snacksmaniac posted:I can't find my other two orbs so I have two. I am grabbing set adrift. Definitely get four if you can, even if you do a 3/1 split. No one really respects Orb until it's milled them for 10+ and at that point they're Glimpse 5-8. I have four and I kinda want to run a singleton Psychic Spiral with them 
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Apr 8, 2017 15:38
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EvilBeard posted:The thing about the Wurm is that it's green so you can get it with Summoner's Pact. It's also not that hard to cast with all your ramp. I used to run 2 Emrakul, now I run 1 of it, one Wurm. Oh the Pact! TitanBreach seems sweet
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Apr 8, 2017 19:37
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Fingers McLongDong posted:I actually cut all the Ralliers from my build. Tried 3 rallier/1 saffi and didn't like it, then cut rallier one by one as weeks went on. I played with 1 at a 2k and it was alright but I had several times where it was a no-value 3/2, especially when I companied into it and didn't have anything to sac before company was cast. Currently using a 3rd eternal witness instead and I think I like it more personally, but abzan coco lists are so flexible I don't think it's wrong either way, I do think rallier is pretty good if you're on a version with Voice but I'm also on no voices currently. It's interesting that we had such different experiences with the card. I found that I pretty much always had either a fetchland or a viscera seer (I added the third to be more combo-oriented) and an expendable creature when I needed to activate the rallier. All three of the major variants of the deck (renegade rallier with saffi, archangel of thune package, and BDM-style tireless trackers and courser of kruphix maindeck) are pretty good in my opinion. If you're expecting a lot of graveyard hate you probably want to pick one of the latter two, if not I like the first one.
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Apr 8, 2017 20:02
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C-Euro posted:lol that's awesome, I'm half-tempted to try it out. You're pulling enough lands out of your deck that it could probably be a little better than you think. Did you get to flip an Emrakul or Worldspine to it? I have in Legacy. I hit a Through the Breach, Land, and a Search For Tomorrow to dome him for 8.
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Apr 9, 2017 17:55
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does anyone have any modern Esper builds that are control oriented, not awful, and also not faeries?
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Apr 10, 2017 01:41
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Tim Raines IRL posted:does anyone have any modern Esper builds that are control oriented, not awful, and also not faeries? I'm sure there's an Esper Death's Shadow deck out there with your name on it.
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Apr 10, 2017 01:44
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Star Man posted:I'm sure there's an Esper Death's Shadow deck out there with your name on it. Caleb was playing an Esper build a few weeks ago. White seems a lot worse than blue or red though. You do get Lingering Souls though, which took a few games the other builds wouldn't have won.
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Apr 10, 2017 01:52
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Tim Raines IRL posted:does anyone have any modern Esper builds that are control oriented, not awful, and also not faeries? I don't know how good they are but I've seen a couple of Esper control decks running around that are planeswalker-heavy, I'm working on one now but I know other people here are playing it. Star Man posted:I'm sure there's an Esper Death's Shadow deck out there with your name on it. There is!
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Apr 10, 2017 01:54
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suicidesteve posted:Caleb was playing an Esper build a few weeks ago. White seems a lot worse than blue or red though. You do get Lingering Souls though, which took a few games the other builds wouldn't have won. Isn't Jund souls splashing White for that?
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Apr 10, 2017 02:18
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Grixis splashing white is also pretty baller e: Also just wanna throw out that it's nice to see suicide black as a legit archetype in modern even though 10% of the meta is incredible & I hope it settles down without bans
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Apr 10, 2017 02:20
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Tim Raines IRL posted:does anyone have any modern Esper builds that are control oriented, not awful, and also not faeries? 2 Logic Knot 1 Swamp 1 Torrential Gearhulk 4 Esper Charm 4 Flooded Strand 1 Plains 1 Mystic Gate 2 Negate 4 Snapcaster Mage 3 Supreme Verdict 2 Sphinx's Revelation 1 Path to Exile 2 Hallowed Fountain 1 Far // Away 1 Godless Shrine 4 Polluted Delta 2 Watery Grave 4 Fatal Push 2 Celestial Colonnade 2 Creeping Tar Pit 4 Cryptic Command 4 Think Twice 1 Sunken Ruins 1 Steam Vents 1 Marsh Flats 3 Island 2 Secure the Wastes Sideboard 2 Crumble to Dust 3 Path to Exile 1 Runed Halo 2 Stony Silence 1 Far // Away 1 Relic of Progenitus 2 Thoughtseize 1 Negate 2 Timely Reinforcements I've been having a ton of fun with this. It feels like it has game vs nearly everything. I have not tried any planeswalker based lists, as I much prefer the draw-go style of control than tapout control.
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Apr 10, 2017 02:27
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Don't one or two people on this board play Aristocrats in Modern? I saw this pile on MTGGoldfish and I was only $15 from finishing it so I went for it- Deck: BW Aristocrats   //Lands 1 Caves of Koilos 3 Concealed Courtyard 3 Ghost Quarter 2 Godless Shrine 1 Isolated Chapel 3 Marsh Flats 3 Plains 3 Shambling Vent 3 Swamp 1 Windbrisk Heights //Spells 4 Fatal Push 4 Inquisition of Kozilek 4 Lingering Souls 1 Path to Exile 3 Sram's Expertise //Creatures 4 Blood Artist 4 Cartel Aristocrat 4 Doomed Traveler 1 Teysa, Orzhov Scion 4 Viscera Seer 4 Zulaport Cutthroat //Sideboard 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender 1 Disenchant 2 Fulminator Mage 2 Leyline of Sanctity 1 Leyline of the Void 2 Path to Exile 2 Stony Silence 2 Thoughtseize  Display deck statisticsI've been wanting to try Sram's Expertise in some kind of token-centric build, but I can't help but wonder if Spectral Procession would be better there for the Teysa synergy. I guess we'll see how much free poo poo I get to cast off of Expertise.
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Apr 11, 2017 04:10
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I want to get back in to legacy, I loved playing Loam Pox in 2015 when I was grinding, what sort of updates does this list need: 1 Vengeful Pharaoh 1 Nether Spirit 3 Liliana of the Veil 1 Chains of Mephistopholes 1 Raven's Crime 1 Big-boy Pox 4 Smallpox 1 Maelstrom Pulse 1 Duress 2 Abrupt Decay 2 Crop Rotation 2 Sinkhole 3 Life from the Loam 3 Entomb 4 Hymn to Tourach 3 Mox Diamond 1 Cursed Scroll 1 Powder Keg 2 Snow-Covered Swamp 1 Snow-Covered Forest 4 Bayou 4 Wasteland 4 Verdant Catacombs 4 Mishra's Factory 2 Urborg, Tomb of Yagmoth 2 Thespian's Stage 1 Bojuka Bog 1 Dark Depths SB 3 Chalice of the Void 3 Leyline of the Void 2 Massacre 2 Threeball 1 Pithing Needle 1 Helm of Obedience 1 Surgical Extraction 1 Syphon Life 1 Bind (TECH A.F.) ---- I totally understand that trying to split the difference between Loam Depths, Mono-Black Prison Pox and BGanswers.dec is pulling me in three directions and none of them is entirely reliable, so I'm open to suggestions as to which are the most dependable. I've got access to all sorts of maybeboard stuff, the only cards I don't have that would obviously materially improve this deck are Tabernacle and The Abyss. What are the kids playing in Legacy these days? Do I need to bring in Guttural Response or move Chains to the board? How do I improve the shell of Loam Depths? Does Filth have a place in the board to get my guys through blockers? Shrecknet fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 21:27
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Made it into the top 8 of my local modern league with Bant Spirits. Lost round 3 to Infect, after not drawing any spell quellers or mausoleum wanderers. What can you do? Round 4 was vs G/W Tron which I won 2-0. G1 I had a fast clock and managed to spell quell all the stirrings. G2 had T2 meddling mage on Ugin, but a slower clock. Opponent hit ten mana and cast an ulamog but I had a path and was holding Gavony in hand so I could drop it and activate for lethal. First round of top 8 is this week and I'm paired against burn. My plan is to somehow miraculously win G1 and then use 2x blessed alliance and 2x rhox war monk's from the side to win. Anybody have any advice for playing against burn?
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Apr 11, 2017 23:58
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Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:I want to get back in to legacy, I loved playing Loam Pox in 2015 when I was grinding, what sort of updates does this list need: I'm a big fan of dark ritual in this style of deck. Ritualing out sinkholes and hymns or smallpoxes is awesome. Also more sinkholes. Many decks cant beat loam+wasteland if you also sinkhole their 1 basic. e: Dark rit also pushes you to play more 1 drop discard effects to maximize the effectiveness of 3 black on turn 1.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:05
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L0cke17 posted:I'm a big fan of dark ritual in this style of deck. Ritualing out sinkholes and hymns or smallpoxes is awesome. Also more sinkholes. Many decks cant beat loam+wasteland if you also sinkhole their 1 basic. My problem with Dark Ritual is that it is SUCH a dead draw after turn 1. Even lands turn into Raven's Crime late game. Mox Diamond is my primary acceleration.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:21
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