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Countblanc posted:They wanted to dissolve the importance of "omni-crafting", where having every craft at high levels was mandatory due to how cross-class skills work for DoH classes. In other words, you could be Just A Carpenter or Just An Armorsmith, and still compete on the marketboard. I don't craft, but from what I've heard it was a marvelous failure at doing that. Specialist abilities managed almost the opposite of that, actually, somehow. The actions themselves were mostly worthless because they were too random, and it led to people just having crafting alts so they could hit all the specialist only recipes. Seriously, if they had wanted to actually fix omnicraft they would have had to redo crafting from step one. Anybody from staff who said that was the reason for Specialization was lying through their teeth.
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Apr 11, 2017 21:53
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It boggles my mind that omnicrafting is apparently a "problem" that needs "fixing". Being able to make everything is one of the best parts of the ffxiv crafting system.
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Apr 11, 2017 22:05
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Mymla posted:It boggles my mind that omnicrafting is apparently a "problem" that needs "fixing". Being able to make everything is one of the best parts of the ffxiv crafting system. The issue is that in order to make Anything you need to level Everything, an issue that also exists for the combat classes, too
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Apr 11, 2017 22:08
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Player interdependence is a desirable thing in an economy, also.
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Apr 11, 2017 22:10
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I'd rather have a good game where crafting is convenient than a good economy, personally.
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Apr 11, 2017 22:15
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Yes crafting is definitely convenient in Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward.
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Apr 11, 2017 22:18
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Kwyndig posted:Seriously, if they had wanted to actually fix omnicraft they would have had to redo crafting from step one. Anybody from staff who said that was the reason for Specialization was lying through their teeth. Mymla posted:It boggles my mind that omnicrafting is apparently a "problem" that needs "fixing". Being able to make everything is one of the best parts of the ffxiv crafting system. The fact that the first thing anyone says to answer "how do I get started with crafting" is "level two different classes to 50 and a third to the mid 30s" is kind of an issue, and one they said they wanted to fix with the specialist system. That would be fine, but they completely failed to make the specialist skills useful in any way, so the system just kind of fell apart beyond specialist recipes and a minor stat boost. Byregot's Brow was probably the closest they got to their actual stated goal, and that's still not that great.
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Apr 11, 2017 22:18
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It also sucks how crafting any given recipe, regardless of profession, feels the same. Same with botany and mining honestly but fishing shows they can make unique experiences depending on what you're hunting. Specializations could have addressed that but, well, they didn't.
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Apr 11, 2017 22:22
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Specialist skills loving blow because they're incredibly rng dependent, and crafting in itself is already rng dependent as is. Also the economy in ff14 is going to be balls because players can, at no cost, constantly relist prices and gladly tank the prices of literally everything at the slightest provocation. Hell, you can price match someone but put your item in another city and they'll immediately slash the prices by 20% in retaliation. I GATHERED THE MATERIALS SO IT WAS FREE
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Apr 11, 2017 22:26
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Asimo posted:I never played it but I know there was stuff like "no recipe list, you had to select the materials yourself and hope you chose the right ones or else you wasted them all" It's been a while but this sounds more like FF11 crafting, where you just used a crystal, which opened up a box, and then you threw things in the box and hit go and hoped for the best. I can't remember if it let you attempt invalid recipes or not though.
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Apr 11, 2017 22:31
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Kwyndig posted:What I want is to not have said upgrade process be laid out in such a way that only the fattest of wallets and poopest of sockers can compete. How do you propose that they "fix" this "problem", and also in such a way that it doesn't completely obviate the need for better crafting gear?
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Apr 11, 2017 22:35
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Leal posted:Also the economy in ff14 is going to be balls because players can, at no cost, constantly relist prices and gladly tank the prices of literally everything at the slightest provocation. Hell, you can price match someone but put your item in another city and they'll immediately slash the prices by 20% in retaliation. I'm glad of it. Edit: Speaking as someone who rushed DoH and DoL within the first couple of days of Heavwnaward, crafted their own level 60 crafting gear and got to profit from the like 600% markups at launch, once you've already leveled the jobs the effort:profit ratio is still obscene, and people that complain about not being able to maintain those kinds of profit margins by monopolizing some lovely leveling gear get no sympathy from me. Doubly so if the item you're complaining about is fellow DoH/DoL gear. a crisp refreshing Moxie fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 22:37
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Wait does city affect marketboard stuff?
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Apr 11, 2017 22:42
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^^^ City affects taxes paid upon purchase. Always try to buy from the same city as the retainer that is selling what you want, especially for expensive things.Fister Roboto posted:How do you propose that they "fix" this "problem", and also in such a way that it doesn't completely obviate the need for better crafting gear? Relic quests, but for crafting gear  IIRC both the current relic grind and the HW crafting system are the ideas of the 1.0 director who remained in staff after yoship took over. So hopefully I'm not being prophetic here. I do kind of feel the pain of "my crafting gear sucks but my only path forward is spending tens of millions of gil or having a billionaire crafter drop a set on me" though. Thundarr fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 22:43
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Thundarr posted:^^^ City affects taxes paid upon purchase. Always try to buy from the same city as the retainer that is selling what you want, especially for expensive things. This is a pretty dumb system
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Apr 11, 2017 22:53
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Control Volume posted:This is a pretty dumb system I'm not disagreeing with you. That said, if you feel like dropping 2 mil on a desynth only swimsuit and the seller is in Limsa, make sure you are not standing in Gridania at the time.
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Apr 11, 2017 22:55
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Control Volume posted:This is a pretty dumb system Hey if nothing else it can help with selling your poo poo when someone wants to do low effort 1 gil undercuts.
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Apr 11, 2017 22:56
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I've been in a 1-gil-undercutting battle with the only other person on my server interested in my tiny corner of the market. I'm actually going to miss them when the xpack hits and it becomes irrelevant.
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Apr 11, 2017 23:03
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Well the first step would yes, be not requiring bis for HW when SB launches to craft anything above level 60. The second step would be to loving fire that guy. Seriously, the fact that I constantly need to be BiS for the last step to even try to reach the next step in crafting progression is loving criminal and makes it so that people who weren't already on the leading edge with all the moneys/time in the world are forever trailing behind since there's also no such thing as a 'catch up' patch for crafting. There, you want to know what I want? I want real catch up mechanisms. The way crafting currently works catch up progression that takes you equal or a step behind is basically impossible because they never cycled Scrip like they did with combat currencies. Oh sure, they adjusted the prices of things, but the way the requirements for crafting turn-ins and the caps worked you couldn't go from "Hi I just hit 60!" to "I'm competitive!" in a week or two like you could with combat classes (unless you had $texas). So I want proper catch up mechanisms, and as long as we're talking about things that won't happen, I want them to remove the guy who has handled crafting development and progression up until now and replace him with somebody who isn't an asshat about these things. Other things I want we'll probably never see... I want them to add crafting tournaments with open ended quality crafts and big prizes to the winners. I want GC turn ins with a story behind them, like you hand in weapons and the guy who gets it sends you a thank you note and a little story about how it saved their life. I want Godbert to be the new Goldsmith mentor. I want crafting quests more complicated than "talk to NPCs, make item, hand in". I want more than 3 crafting stats and I want them to be different or have different uses depending on what class I am. I want to be able to attempt to craft anything as long as I'm high enough level instead of having to meet arbitrary caps that still require me to use 'optimal' rotations and/or cross class skills to finish the item anyway. As an aside, the easiest way to fix market 'undercutting' is with listing fees, and I have no idea why they don't use them. It's not like the idea is unknown to them, Yoshida worked on FFXI and it had listing fees in the auction house.
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Apr 11, 2017 23:15
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Kwyndig posted:I want GC turn ins with a story behind them, like you hand in weapons and the guy who gets it sends you a thank you note and a little story about how it saved their life. Zhloe did kind of fit that purpose, which is cool.
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Apr 11, 2017 23:20
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Waldorf Sixpence posted:Just knocking about in North Shroud, doing the Easter quest, but what's that? Looks a bit weird out here? Weather: {Tension} It was great seeing people try to kill Odin right after HW launched because he just OHKOed everyone with everything. DACK FAYDEN posted:I'm really sad they didn't add a new Odin fight. It's really super fun - and more so when we outlevel it, honestly, because it means you have a little more room to breathe - to have a giant murderball of players burning down a super-buff FATE. I was hoping for Urth's Font (savage) and that it'd drop dyeable versions of Odin's gear.  The sad thing is, Odin's FATE is what S rank hunts should've been like. AKA "here's a giant gently caress you murderbeast with some basic mechanics and if you can't clear a simple DPS check (or whatever) you fail and start over." strong bird posted:The issue is that in order to make Anything you need to level Everything, an issue that also exists for the combat classes, too Yes like how to get the most out of MNK you level THM to 45 and ARC to 50. (they are not the same, combat classes have a trivial amount of cross-classing compared to crafters) If they want to fix crafting they need to simplify it and accept that it'll dilute the profitability as a result.
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Apr 11, 2017 23:24
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Klades posted:It's been a while but this sounds more like FF11 crafting, where you just used a crystal, which opened up a box, and then you threw things in the box and hit go and hoped for the best. I can't remember if it let you attempt invalid recipes or not though. Also if I recall the dev in charge of the crafting system for Heavensward was also one of the FFXI lead devs which really, really explains a lot.
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Apr 11, 2017 23:38
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Kwyndig posted:Well the first step would yes, be not requiring bis for HW when SB launches to craft anything above level 60. The second step would be to loving fire that guy. There are already catch up mechanics in place. You can get a full set of i180 keep gear from blue scrip. That's enough to craft the 2* carbonweave gear, which, with some light melding, is enough to make ironworks gear. If you did moogle quests to level up, you could already have a ton of the materials you need to make the ironworks, too. Or you could just give all the materials to a crafter and have them make it for you. You can literally, literally be BIS on the day you hit 60. Are we even playing the same game?
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Apr 11, 2017 23:42
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The issue isn't how difficult it is to BiS at 60 currently, but how it was a dumb design maneuver to force players to halt the leveling grind to require more effort in gearing up between 50 and 51 than levels previous, and that hopefully SB will not employ the same sensibilities. BiS 60 should give you the advantage of not needing to regear for a while, much like BiS 50 did. But the stat increases between 50 and 51 leveling recipes was ridiculous for anyone breaking in to crafting after HW. And as someone like many, with all my crafts leveled and geared, I personally would not wish the same thing to happen at 61 for players behind the curve. Considering what they did for combat classes to fill the gap between level 50 post-ARR and HW, it was quite silly they did not do the same for crafting and, to a lesser extent, gathering.
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Apr 11, 2017 23:49
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Fister Roboto posted:There are already catch up mechanics in place. You can get a full set of i180 keep gear from blue scrip. That's enough to craft the 2* carbonweave gear, which, with some light melding, is enough to make ironworks gear. If you did moogle quests to level up, you could already have a ton of the materials you need to make the ironworks, too. Or you could just give all the materials to a crafter and have them make it for you. You can literally, literally be BIS on the day you hit 60. By "ton of the materials from moogle quests" you mean "literally 1 item" which is the glass fiber, right? Or did I miss the moogle merchants offering HQ eikon leathers and cloth, high mythrite ingots and fieldcraft 3 demimateria?
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Apr 11, 2017 23:50
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Skaw posted:The issue isn't how difficult it is to BiS at 60 currently, but how it was a dumb design maneuver to force players to halt the leveling grind to require more effort in gearing up between 50 and 51 than levels previous, and that hopefully SB will not employ the same sensibilities. BiS 60 should give you the advantage of not needing to regear for a while, much like BiS 50 did. But the stat increases between 50 and 51 leveling recipes was ridiculous for anyone breaking in to crafting after HW. And as someone like many, with all my crafts leveled and geared, I personally would not wish the same thing to happen at 61 for players behind the curve. Considering what they did for combat classes to fill the gap between level 50 post-ARR and HW, it was quite silly they did not do the same for crafting and, to a lesser extent, gathering. BIS 50 gear was more than good enough to keep me going until 55 or so when HW launched, so it kinda sounds like that's exactly what they did? Like sure, I'll grant you the difficulty penalty for trying to craft 51 gear at 50 was needlessly punishing, but one, it only lasted a single level before it eased up significantly, and two, crafting at-level recipes with adequate (not BIS) gear meant you were guaranteed an end-product but not necessarily an HQ unless you worked for it (HQ mats, food buffs, etc.), which IMO is exactly where the difficulty should lie while you're leveling stuff. Edit: The Lucis tool was literally the same stats as like a level 60 NQ tool, wasn't it? Meaning you could go almost the entire 50-60 without replacing it. Double-edit: 57. Point still stands. a crisp refreshing Moxie fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 00:02
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a crisp refreshing Moxie posted:BIS 50 gear was more than good enough to keep me going until 55 or so when HW launched, so it kinda sounds like that's exactly what they did? Like sure, I'll grant you the difficulty penalty for trying to craft 51 gear at 50 was needlessly punishing, but one, it only lasted a single level before it eased up significantly, and two, crafting at-level recipes with adequate (not BIS) gear meant you were guaranteed an end-product but not necessarily an HQ unless you worked for it (HQ mats, food buffs, etc.), which IMO is exactly where the difficulty should lie while you're leveling stuff. Thats what I said, BiS 50 could carry you for a while. But it was extremely futile to attempt leveling to 51 without working the crafting turn in chain or buying artisan gear which was, in my opinion, an unrealistic expectation for a new crafter at the time just because established crafters had already met that criteria. The curve in the required stat increase was, and still is, completely screwed up in that regard. Skaw fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 00:06
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Leal posted:By "ton of the materials from moogle quests" you mean "literally 1 item" which is the glass fiber, right? Or did I miss the moogle merchants offering HQ eikon leathers and cloth, high mythrite ingots and fieldcraft 3 demimateria? Those are tomestone materials, you don't even need to touch a crafting class to acquire them in vast amounts. The FC3s I'll give you, but you only need 17 total to make a full suit of literally the best crafting gear in the game.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:06
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Perhaps we are playing different games if you think acquiring 17 Fieldcraft 3s is easy.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:11
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What, only one ingredient from each of those things are tomestone acquirable. Eikon hide can be bought, but if you want to turn it into eikon leather you need to craft up a 2star alchemist item and gather an item that requires a folklore book (which requires 4,950 blue scrips).
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Apr 12, 2017 00:16
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Skaw posted:Thats what I said, BiS 50 could carry you for a while. But it was extremely futile to attempt leveling to 51 without working the crafting turn in chain or buying artisan gear which was, in my opinion, an unrealistic expectation for a new crafter at the time just because established crafters had already met that criteria. Oh word, I reread your post and I get what you're trying to say. Thinking back, I'd agree that the endgame crafter had it significantly easier than a fresh Heavensward crafting newbie, but I'm not so sure the disparity was significant enough for me to be concerned for SB. Even for the people that went into 3.0 with Patrician's or AF level equipment, getting over that first 50-60 hump quickly was a matter of chaining NQ synths over and over as opposed to a smaller number of HQ ones, which was the exact same position the people in Artisan's gear found themselves for that same interim. Once you hit 51, the onus was on you to replace your entry set for the (relatively more accessible) heavensward crafting gear and then the disparity between those people and the ones who didn't have that same pressure (due to better ARR gear) was MUCH closer. Considering you're always going to have a gulf between those who drop DoH/DoL at level cap and those who keep up witb the bleeding edge of the gearing curve, I think that's as fair as you can make the situation without either dropping the difficulty ceiling so much for newbies that you trivialize the crafts for people with better gear, or going the other way and sandwiching the stat difference so much that it seems you negate the efforts of the active crafters to prepare themselves.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:23
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Kwyndig posted:Perhaps we are playing different games if you think acquiring 17 Fieldcraft 3s is easy. They're 34k on Excalibur right now, so that's about 500k total. I think that's a steal for, again, literally the best crafting gear in the game right now. This poo poo is easy, but not effortless.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:23
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The primary reason that the catchup mechanics for Crafters/Gatherers suck this time around is because they're tied to scrips and said scrips have remained pretty static. I remember having a decent time getting Artisan's stuff and it feeling worthwhile but this time around I just don't feel it, even with Zhloe giving a huge chunk of red scrips. However I also don't mind that cutting-edge crafting requires fat cat wallets. The only other things you need gil for are houses and repairs. It is annoying for casual crafter's who mainly want them for neat stuff like bardings, pets and housing items though. EponymousMrYar fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 00:25
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a crisp refreshing Moxie posted:Oh word, I reread your post and I get what you're trying to say. Thinking back, I'd agree that the endgame crafter had it significantly easier than a fresh Heavensward crafting newbie, but I'm not so sure the disparity was significant enough for me to be concerned for SB. Even for the people that went into 3.0 with Patrician's or AF level equipment, getting over that first 50-60 hump quickly was a matter of chaining NQ synths over and over as opposed to a smaller number of HQ ones, which was the exact same position the people in Artisan's gear found themselves for that same interim. Once you hit 51, the onus was on you to replace your entry set for the (relatively more accessible) heavensward crafting gear and then the disparity between those people and the ones who didn't have that same pressure (due to better ARR gear) was MUCH closer. Even if you're only wearing the vendor gear from Ishgard, you can still NQ level 51 items and have at least a non-zero chance of HQ. Yeah it's probably gonna suck until you get some levels but it's not this impassible mountain people are making it out to be. Of course the main reason I don't see any of this as a problem is that you can always skip all these hurdles by just having a high level crafter friend. Social interaction is an almost game breaking catchup mechanic.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:34
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You do realize that somebody has to get there first, right?
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Apr 12, 2017 00:39
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To Ishgard? No, technically they don't. They could just have someone buy the gear and bring it to them. And besides, if you can't enter Ishgard yet, why would you be trying to level a crafting class above 50?
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Apr 12, 2017 00:46
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Skaw posted:Thats what I said, BiS 50 could carry you for a while. But it was extremely futile to attempt leveling to 51 without working the crafting turn in chain or buying artisan gear which was, in my opinion, an unrealistic expectation for a new crafter at the time just because established crafters had already met that criteria. The curve in the required stat increase was, and still is, completely screwed up in that regard. this is why every crafting guildmaster gave you a bunch of those super exp buff scrolls at launch. if you weren't BIS, you could get yourself to 51 in a few minutes by cranking out a bunch of darksteel nuggets or whatever, or even grind all the way to 53 and buy a full set of left side + tools from the vendor.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:49
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a crisp refreshing Moxie posted:Once you hit 51, the onus was on you to replace your entry set for the (relatively more accessible) heavensward crafting gear and then the disparity between those people and the ones who didn't have that same pressure (due to better ARR gear) was MUCH closer. The first HW crafting set was Holy Rainbow at 53. And I entirely agree. Patricians and Cobalt tools shouldn't carry you as far as what the gear people sunk lots of work in to could be carried to with theirs. But the curve, and the ingredient sources, really should've been a bit more lenient up until that point. Heaven help you if you needed leather for anything at the start of HW. Not much fun with Coerthan Tea Leaves on unspoiled nodes.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:57
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I started with Patricians at HW launch. I had leveled D0H to 50 during 2.x and never touched it again. The first few crafting levels in 3.0 were painfully brutal.
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Apr 12, 2017 01:02
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Fister Roboto posted:To Ishgard? No, technically they don't. They could just have someone buy the gear and bring it to them. I meant level, not location. You can't have a higher level person do something for you when such a person does not exist yet. Kwyndig fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 02:01
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