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I think reasonable people can agree that over-prescribing opiates in large part caused the problem (which we can deduce by comparing the United States to other countries or being even mildly curious or even passingly knowledgeable about the timeline of oxy and pain as 5th vital sign or not being ideological morons, etc.) AND that pulling the rug out from that without a sensible policy about where these addicts would go would result in more OD deaths when they started doing heroin etc. Guessing narcan wasn't part of that 2011 Ohio plan, either. There would have been plenty of deaths--and even more fresh iceberg created under the surface--if they just kept the pill mills running, though. Hard to know what that lag would look like in aggregate, but if you care about human beings then another line you'd like to see on that chart is "# of new addicts/potential addicts".
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# ? Mar 31, 2017 14:52 |
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# ? May 15, 2024 13:32 |
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pangstrom posted:I think reasonable people can agree that over-prescribing opiates in large part caused the problem We would not have the problem we do today if the Gov had not obstructed efforts to establish harm reduction services. You can't pin the blame exclusively on doctors. The problem was that the government essentially banned sunscreen and sun protection at a time when doctors were recommending ppl spend more time outdoors. KingEup fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Mar 31, 2017 |
# ? Mar 31, 2017 15:01 |
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I'm not overstating things at all when I say your top-line takes are no less dumb than saying the opiate problem in 19th century China was due to government crackdowns or under supply.
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# ? Mar 31, 2017 15:15 |
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Like Xu Naiji did when he said that China should undercut the British by establishing domestic opium plantations and taxing non-medical opium instead of the Emperor's policy of torturing addicts more and more severely and burning opium stocks to solve the problem, which famously worked great?
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 17:34 |
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Another good article:quote:The drug war is the problem, not opioids
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 23:45 |
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KingEup posted:Another good article: I used to think this. But when doctors chilled out slightly on prescribing opioids the numbers of addicts vastly increased. Legal access actually increased the number of addicts.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 23:49 |
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There is a difference between a doctor prescribing a drug and that drug being legally available.
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# ? Apr 2, 2017 00:19 |
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Implementing prescription opioid controls doesn't have a strong link to increased heroin use, although that line is the new favorite tactic of the drug manufacturer sponsored patient pain groups that oppose any degree of legislative action across the country. The data pretty clearly shows the shift to heroin was already occurring before the quantity of opioids prescribed in this country was curtailed or more controls were put in place. Our population being flooded with prescription narcotics definitely played the key part in creating this epidemic though. NEJM had a pretty great review article on this topic last year http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra1508490quote:EFFECTS OF OPIOID-PRESCRIBING INTERVENTIONS ON HEROIN USE
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# ? Apr 2, 2017 00:41 |
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Meanwhile in Wisconsin our sadistic governor wants to be to able to kick childless adults off medicaid if they fail a mandatory drug screening. He also wants to do the same for people applying for food stamps or unemployment benefits. Now that's how you kick a drug epidemic into overdrive.
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# ? Apr 2, 2017 01:00 |
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Subvisual Haze posted:Implementing prescription opioid controls doesn't have a strong link to increased heroin use, although that line is the new favorite tactic of the drug manufacturer sponsored patient pain groups that oppose any degree of legislative action across the country. [/url] I did not realise that RAND had ties with big pharma: quote:Our results imply that a substantial share of the dramatic increase in heroin deaths since 2010 can be attributed to the reformulation of OxyContin. http://www.rand.org/pubs/working_papers/WR1181.html
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# ? Apr 2, 2017 06:06 |
BarbarianElephant posted:I used to think this. But when doctors chilled out slightly on prescribing opioids the numbers of addicts vastly increased. Legal access actually increased the number of addicts. are you referring to what happened in the US in the early 2000s with oxy, or something else? on another note honestly i think that people are going to do drugs if they want to do drugs and you should make it as safe as possible for them to do so. people wanted opioids before oxy happened and they want them now. switzerland has the right idea, im repeating myself, etc
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# ? Apr 2, 2017 23:39 |
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big cock Salaryman posted:are you referring to what happened in the US in the early 2000s with oxy, or something else? Since round about then until recently there has been a lot more prescription of opioids because of a shaky study that said people in pain don't get addicted. Turns out they do, and also if there's a lot of legal opiates floating around, there is more opportunity for them to get into the black market. There was also an issue with something called "pill mills" where crooked doctors made huge profits prescribing huge amounts of opioids to anyone who could pony up cash for a "consultation."
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# ? Apr 2, 2017 23:50 |
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~23k drug convictions are going to be vacated in Massachusetts, though it took a long time by any standard to get here. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/stunning-drug-lab-scandal-could-upend-23-000-convictions-n739626
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# ? Apr 2, 2017 23:53 |
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One of my friends died of a heroin overdose two nights ago. I don't have anything else to add I guess. He was 25.
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# ? Apr 3, 2017 02:21 |
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empty whippet box posted:One of my friends died of a heroin overdose two nights ago. I don't have anything else to add I guess. He was 25. I am so sorry
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# ? Apr 3, 2017 05:36 |
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empty whippet box posted:One of my friends died of a heroin overdose two nights ago. I don't have anything else to add I guess. He was 25. I don't have the right words for you. I'm really sorry
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# ? Apr 3, 2017 05:45 |
BarbarianElephant posted:Since round about then until recently there has been a lot more prescription of opioids because of a shaky study that said people in pain don't get addicted. Turns out they do, and also if there's a lot of legal opiates floating around, there is more opportunity for them to get into the black market. yeah im aware of all that. part of it was the age-old tactic of claiming that oxy wasn't addictive. i agree that it was wrong to do. my view is that the toothpaste is out of the tube and we need to provide support, because no amount of crackdowns will put the paste back in.
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# ? Apr 3, 2017 06:22 |
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empty whippet box posted:One of my friends died of a heroin overdose two nights ago. I don't have anything else to add I guess. He was 25. Goondolences, yo. That's an awful tragedy no matter how you slice it.
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# ? Apr 3, 2017 06:23 |
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Goondolences, yo. That's an awful tragedy no matter how you slice it. He was a white guy from a good family in his last semester of his undergraduate degree and he was president of his fraternity and he had a girlfriend of just about 7 years. What I'm saying is, he's the kind of heroin death that politicians pretend to give a gently caress about.
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# ? Apr 3, 2017 06:41 |
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BarbarianElephant posted:Since round about then until recently there has been a lot more prescription of opioids because of a shaky study that said people in pain don't get addicted. Turns out they do, They sure do! quote:the CDC reported that de novo addiction among patients receiving chronic opioids for pain is infrequent at lower doses, affecting 0.7% of persons receiving 36 milligrams morphine equivalent (MME), rising to 6.1% among persons receiving 120 MME.3... most persons treated for prescription opioid use disorder do not have any chronic pain diagnosis.28
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# ? Apr 3, 2017 14:19 |
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This one is an interesting read too:quote:States have responded to rising rates of prescription-opioid overdose by adopting laws that restrict the prescribing and dispensing of controlled substances...
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# ? Apr 3, 2017 14:21 |
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big cock Salaryman posted:yeah im aware of all that. part of it was the age-old tactic of claiming that oxy wasn't addictive. i agree that it was wrong to do. my view is that the toothpaste is out of the tube and we need to provide support, because no amount of crackdowns will put the paste back in. We also need to think about preventing future addicts as well as caring for current ones. Providing freely available opioids would help current addicts live a normal life, but would inevitably create new addicts.
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# ? Apr 3, 2017 14:29 |
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BarbarianElephant posted:Providing freely available opioids would help current addicts live a normal life, but would inevitably create new addicts. New addicts who could live a normal life? What's the problem? KingEup fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Apr 3, 2017 |
# ? Apr 3, 2017 14:44 |
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Addicts generally don't lead normal lives and it's not just government policy that causes that.
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# ? Apr 3, 2017 21:07 |
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pangstrom posted:Addicts generally don't lead normal lives and it's not just government policy that causes that. Yeah; even on suboxone I never felt quite the same as I did back before I had ever used. Even ignoring the psychological issues, I couldn't experience feelings like pleasure or excitement in the same way I could when clean. I know that some addicts are able to feel totally normal on suboxone, but for me it just made things tolerable and preferable to using a short-acting opioid.
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# ? Apr 3, 2017 22:48 |
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quote:I know that some addicts are able to feel totally normal on suboxone, but for me it just made things tolerable and preferable to using a short-acting opioid. Some people don't feel normal unless they take it, some people don't feel normal unless they abstain. And my position is that it be left up to the user to decide what is best for them.
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# ? Apr 3, 2017 23:16 |
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What would you guess is the over under on what those folks would choose if it was "just" a choice, though?
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# ? Apr 3, 2017 23:21 |
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Ytlaya posted:Yeah; even on suboxone I never felt quite the same as I did back before I had ever used. Even ignoring the psychological issues, I couldn't experience feelings like pleasure or excitement in the same way I could when clean. I know that some addicts are able to feel totally normal on suboxone, but for me it just made things tolerable and preferable to using a short-acting opioid.
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# ? Apr 4, 2017 12:55 |
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This was news to me: Opiod addicts using massive doses of an anti-diarrhea medication for withdrawals and getting high.
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# ? Apr 11, 2017 23:02 |
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deoju posted:This was news to me: Opiod addicts using massive doses of an anti-diarrhea medication for withdrawals and getting high. I'm pretty sure some goon in TCC actually died from doing that. Can't find a link though since pretty sure the thread's been archived.
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# ? Apr 11, 2017 23:09 |
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Tar_Squid posted:I'm pretty sure some goon in TCC actually died from doing that. Can't find a link though since pretty sure the thread's been archived. Yeah, massive heart attack in a movie theatre from megadosing.
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# ? Apr 12, 2017 00:38 |
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Walgreens and CVS are enabling this as well by selling 200 pill packs. There is no way someone using the product as intended could need that much.
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# ? Apr 12, 2017 01:20 |
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deoju posted:This was news to me: Opiod addicts using massive doses of an anti-diarrhea medication for withdrawals and getting high. You know how opioids make you constipated? Imodium is just an opioid that doesn't cross the blood brain barrier (in normal therapeutic doses). So it's not as strange as the headline makes it sound, since all opioid drugs do literally the same thing as Imodium to your GI system. Even in lower doses, Imodium is part of the core OTC cocktail of drugs you should take to help alleviate opiate withdrawal symptoms. edit: Ah, the article mentions most of this. The headline is just a little misleading because it seems to imply that Imodium, as an anti-diarrhea medication, is somehow fundamentally different from other opioids. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Apr 12, 2017 |
# ? Apr 12, 2017 01:52 |
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Konstantin posted:Walgreens and CVS are enabling this as well by selling 200 pill packs. There is no way someone using the product as intended could need that much. You've clearly never suffered from Crohn's or some other GI malady. poo poo is awful.
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# ? Apr 12, 2017 04:11 |
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Ytlaya posted:You know how opioids make you constipated? Imodium is just an opioid that doesn't cross the blood brain barrier (in normal therapeutic doses). So it's not as strange as the headline makes it sound, since all opioid drugs do literally the same thing as Imodium to your GI system. Loperamide used to be a schedule II controlled substance. The entire DEA scheduling system is garbage, but this one always makes me laugh.
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# ? Apr 12, 2017 04:12 |
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reagan posted:Loperamide used to be a schedule II controlled substance. The entire DEA scheduling system is garbage, but this one always makes me laugh. Loperamide was once a controlled drug under Schedule V. (retired pharmacy tech here) And you're right; it made no sense.
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# ? Apr 12, 2017 04:24 |
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King Possum III posted:Loperamide was once a controlled drug under Schedule V. (retired pharmacy tech here) A former girlfriend was a nurse and a pretty bad addict (opiates and benzos). She'd do a lot of morphine and such that she got from her work. She knew how they kept track of spillage at her hospital and was really good about knowing what she could or could not get away with taking when it came to opiates. When they finally busted her, it was because they were able to track some relatively benign anti-nausea meds she was also pilfering to help deal with that side-effect of her use. Sometimes I wonder how many things end up scheduled for reasons like that.
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# ? Apr 12, 2017 14:54 |
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One of my coworkers died of a heroin OD on April Fools Day. He had a habit in the past but managed to beat it and was clean for a decade. He ran into money/marital problems late last year and cracked. He was 49. Heroin isn't weed or LSD. It will catch up to you one day. Don't do heroin
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# ? Apr 17, 2017 22:06 |
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:One of my coworkers died of a heroin OD on April Fools Day. He had a habit in the past but managed to beat it and was clean for a decade. He ran into money/marital problems late last year and cracked. He was 49. Sorry for your loss, Nissin Cup Nudist. One of my closest NA buddies also died about 10 days ago, apparently from an accidental OD while shooting his Rx morphine pills. Such a goddamned waste, and I'm feeling guilty for being so pissed at him.
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# ? Apr 18, 2017 00:58 |
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# ? May 15, 2024 13:32 |
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:One of my coworkers died of a heroin OD on April Fools Day. He had a habit in the past but managed to beat it and was clean for a decade. He ran into money/marital problems late last year and cracked. He was 49. Honest question: do you think if heroin was legal and available at standardized dosages no-questions-asked, it could save lives? On one hand, I think there would be more addicts, which is unquestionably bad. On the other hand, I think there would be fewer accidental ODs, which is good. I'm conflicted as to what the goal of opiate policy should be: is it better to have more addicts who don't die, or fewer addicts with the risk of death for addicts massively increased? Is there a right answer? My cousin died of a heroin overdose about 7 or 8 years ago now -- similar to your story, he was clean and relapsed and OD'd shortly thereafter -- and it seems like the problem has only gotten worse. It's such a lovely drug, and it kills far too many people.
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# ? Apr 18, 2017 01:11 |