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AlphaDog posted:Uh... so lots of people talk about how magic items (not random magic items, but the existence of magic items at all) is completely optional in 5th ed. Now looking over the magic item stuff in the DMG I can't see where it mentions that they're optional. Is it somewhere else? I believe it's the PHB somewhere in the equipment section. It says something along the lines of "magic items are super rare and characters will probably never encounter one over the whole campaign so that's why we're not putting any rules for them here."
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Apr 11, 2017 14:35
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Rolling for a random item to purchase is dumb unless your character is explicitly the kind of spendthrift who just buys whatever, but rolling for a complication like getting stuck in a bid war or having the seller try to rip you off with a fake could be fun - strictly in moderation. If magic items are plentiful, there's no reason your character can't specifically seek something out, and if they're scarce there's no way they'd just be for sale such that you could randomly roll any of them.
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Apr 11, 2017 14:41
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Thanks Gumdrop Larry for the tip-off. PHB page 144: quote:Magic Items. Selling magic items is problematic. Finding someone to buy a potion or a scroll isn't too hard, but other items are out of the realm of most but the wealthiest nobles. Likewise, aside from a few common magic items, you won't normally come across magic items or spells to purchase. The value of magic is far beyond simple gold and should always be treated as such. That's a really passive-aggressive "nuh uh this is how it should work!" statement aimed directly at 3rd Edition.
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Apr 11, 2017 14:43
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gradenko_2000 posted:Thanks Gumdrop Larry for the tip-off.
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Apr 11, 2017 15:36
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AlphaDog posted:Uh... so lots of people talk about how magic items (not random magic items, but the existence of magic items at all) is completely optional in 5th ed. Now looking over the magic item stuff in the DMG I can't see where it mentions that they're optional. Is it somewhere else? They're not necessary for combat effectiveness, not like they used to be. Which I find to be refreshing. It means I can give out magic items randomly and see what happens.
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Apr 11, 2017 15:37
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AlphaDog posted:In the latest UA, you can spend your excess gold on finding magic items to buy! Which are randomly rolled*. Doesn't the PHB explicitly say that magic items are generally above the gold economy, and you shouldn't expect to just wander into shops and buy them? Edit: oh gently caress there was another page and someone literally posted it. Petr fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 15:47
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Splicer posted:Eh, as a game goal "magic items are special and rare" is fine. It just completely fails to mesh with the other assumptions of the system. Like attunement. Everyone can attune to up to three items, but according to the game you'll probably never even find one non-attunement item. Why not cap it at one then? Or a table based on high/low/medium magic? Or not have a cap and make attunement eat class features (see my totally soon to be released fantasy heartbreaker it's real I swear)? But no, "You'll never find on they're super rare! Also you can have up to three at a time" it is. I think that statement is saying you won't find them in a shop, not that you'll never find one in a campaign.
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Apr 11, 2017 15:53
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Petr posted:Doesn't the PHB explicitly say that magic items are generally above the gold economy, and you shouldn't expect to just wander into shops and buy them? The PHB does and the DMG agrees, but then DMG whispers into the DM's ear "You can totally have merchants buy and sell magic items if you really want if that makes sense in your world." It even has a gp value chart in there based on rarity.
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Apr 11, 2017 16:00
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Splicer posted:Or a table based on high/low/medium magic? Isn't this in one of the books? Or am I thinking of 3.5?
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Apr 11, 2017 16:22
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Splicer posted:Eh, as a game goal "magic items are special and rare" is fine. It just completely fails to mesh with the other assumptions of the system. Like attunement. Everyone can attune to up to three items, but according to the game you'll probably never even find one non-attunement item. Why not cap it at one then? Or a table based on high/low/medium magic? Or not have a cap and make attunement eat class features (see my totally soon to be released fantasy heartbreaker it's real I swear)? But no, "You'll never find on they're super rare! Also you can have up to three at a time" it is. As an overarching design goal, yes, it's perfectly cogent and valid to not have a "magic item gear treadmill". What I take issue is the tone of that entire paragraph essentially making a 15-year parting shot about how 3e was "problematic" for letting you buy items right out of a store and how that sort of thinking was disrespectful to "the value of magic". Kaysette posted:Isn't this in one of the books? Or am I thinking of 3.5? There is a table in the DMG for what a character should start with in a low/medium/high-magic campaign, and if they're starting at low/medium/high levels, but adjusting the campaign to be a "high magic" campaign does nothing for the 3-item attunement limit.
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Apr 11, 2017 17:09
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Just out of curiosity, do we have a thread for talking about Critical Role? I tend to stick to the games subforum so I don't really know my way around the other parts of this place.
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Apr 11, 2017 18:09
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If I recall correctly orcs in 4E actually get another "schtick ability" which is that upon reaching 0 hitpoints they get to immediately make a retaliatory melee attack against anyone in reach, which means that even if you decide to just go head-on with a bunch of orcs that there's a good chance you might get brought down along with them.
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Apr 11, 2017 18:10
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gradenko_2000 posted:There is a table in the DMG for what a character should start with in a low/medium/high-magic campaign, and if they're starting at low/medium/high levels, but adjusting the campaign to be a "high magic" campaign does nothing for the 3-item attunement limit. Oh duh, I totally missed the context for that.
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Apr 11, 2017 18:10
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GoneRampant posted:Just out of curiosity, do we have a thread for talking about Critical Role? I tend to stick to the games subforum so I don't really know my way around the other parts of this place. Looks like Rapidly Going Deaf, the podcast subforum, has a general actual play thread but not one specific to Critlers.
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Apr 11, 2017 18:14
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mango sentinel posted:Looks like Rapidly Going Deaf, the podcast subforum, has a general actual play thread but not one specific to Critlers. Oh thanks.
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Apr 11, 2017 18:15
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gradenko_2000 posted:That's a really passive-aggressive "nuh uh this is how it should work!" statement aimed directly at 3rd Edition. I think you could fairly read that statement as "Magic is rare and powerful, there aren't workshops churning out magic items, you can only gain them from adventures." Which is fine, but my players seem really confused on what to spend their money on. I feel like I have to give them a stronghold at this point because they're just buying magic scrolls and useless doodads during downtime just to feel like their money is worth something.
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Apr 11, 2017 22:38
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The trick is to keep having a bad guy who steals their stuff between quests so they can track him down to the next plot point. That's two problems solved with one development.
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Apr 11, 2017 23:02
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Playing SKT, I think I'm gonna nudge my players towards finding one of the burial mounds early, so I can (possibly) have a subplot where they already found and sold one of the key items they need. "Find the 9 burial mounds" is a little too boring/gamey so I'm already gonna cut down on them, I think 2 or 3 total including one that's "track down a supply company and figure out how to get your thing back" instead of just looting something would be more reasonable. It'd allow for bringing back NPCs, some roleplaying, multiple ways of resolving the problem. Of course, if my players realize the importance of the item, or don't disturb the grave, or any other way they don't end up selling it, good for them. It's still a ways away, they just beat the giant attack in bryn shander so the world is wide open to them. I'm just trying to sketch out ideas for encounters now, and this one would be double duty in giving them an encounter now, while having consequences that affect the story. It might be a little on the nose though. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 23:06
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Kai Tave posted:If I recall correctly orcs in 4E actually get another "schtick ability" which is that upon reaching 0 hitpoints they get to immediately make a retaliatory melee attack against anyone in reach, which means that even if you decide to just go head-on with a bunch of orcs that there's a good chance you might get brought down along with them. This is how you accidentally murder a teammate with a ranged or area power in 4e. Orc Grenadiers were the best for it, because they dropped one last grenade where they fall.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:00
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Playing SKT, I think I'm gonna nudge my players towards finding one of the burial mounds early, so I can (possibly) have a subplot where they already found and sold one of the key items they need. "Find the 9 burial mounds" is a little too boring/gamey so I'm already gonna cut down on them, I think 2 or 3 total including one that's "track down a supply company and figure out how to get your thing back" instead of just looting something would be more reasonable. It'd allow for bringing back NPCs, some roleplaying, multiple ways of resolving the problem. Of course, if my players realize the importance of the item, or don't disturb the grave, or any other way they don't end up selling it, good for them. I think you only do need to find one or two of them. Which ones they pick gives them info on a Giant lord. Vengarr posted:I think you could fairly read that statement as "Magic is rare and powerful, there aren't workshops churning out magic items, you can only gain them from adventures." Which I am happy for this UA for. Gives them something for them to spend on while still being rare as it's hard to find.
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Apr 12, 2017 02:02
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MonsterEnvy posted:Which I am happy for this UA for. Gives them something for them to spend on while still being rare as it's hard to find. Rare and hard to find = Available to anyone with 100gp and a spare week? e: Let's say I'm a 3rd level Bard. I've got 16 CHA for a +3. I've trained Persuasion and got Expertise, so my proficiency bonus is +6. My minimum roll to find a magic item to buy, if I spend one week looking and 100gp, is 1 +3 +6 = 10. If I can get the modifier to the check up to the maximum by spending time and/or money (max of an extra 1000gp, so 1100gp all up), I get a +10. My minumum roll is now 20. My average roll is 30.5. I'm likely to be rolling on table F or G. This puts me square in the range of all but one bardic instrument, weapons +1 and +2, and other cool poo poo like belts of hill giant strength, and horns of blasting. Per the UA article, if I've stated I'm looking for a specific thing, and the DM decides that that specific thing is "an item (they) want to allow in the game", then it's there. I'm after weapons +1. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that if there are magic items at all, then weapons +1 exist. Maybe I'm wrong, but there's still plenty of other poo poo on that list that would be cool. Weapons +1 are Uncommon. They're worth 1d6*100gp. I'm level 3. I can probably equip someone with a sword+1 for 1200-1700gp within a week. Seems like a whole lot of extra effort than just going "swords +1 are worth like 1500gp" but OK, whatever. There's a small chance that I roll low. I'm sure this could be alleviated with spells or abilities, but gently caress digging through everything looking for it. Worst that happens is I end up having to buy worthless useless items like universal solvent or potions of storm giant stength or 8th level spell scrolls which would obviously be a very bad and dumb thing to spend your money on. If I roll high then the worst case scenario is that I end up with an item that's too expensive, but there's still an upside to that in that now I know where a very expensive item is kept which... well, I dunno, kicking in doors and taking stuff is kinda my job so I'm sure I'm gonna think of something. e2: Or if swords +1 are the absolute best thing I want, I can lower the price by 500gp (and lose +5 to the roll) and still keep the entire range of their table within the possibility of my roll. Puts them at 700-1200gp. Again, pointing out that I'm level 3 while this is happening, and I didn't superoptimise the character for finding magic items, I'm just playing a primary CHA bard who's good at Persuadion. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 02:53
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Hell, give me 100 genuine gold coins and a week, and I'll find you ANYTHING.
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Apr 12, 2017 03:31
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You might spend a week and 100g only for your seller to go "All I've got is this...potion of water breathing. Sorry."
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Apr 12, 2017 03:38
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Vengarr posted:You might spend a week and 100g only for your seller to go "All I've got is this...potion of water breathing. Sorry." WoW recently introduced a quest with a dummy prize of a Potion of Potion Drinking, which allows its drinker to drink potions. Use that.
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Apr 12, 2017 03:43
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Arivia posted:WoW recently introduced a quest with a dummy prize of a Potion of Potion Drinking, which allows its drinker to drink potions. Use that. Wand of Wands. One charge. Creates a new Wand of Wands.
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Apr 12, 2017 04:00
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lifg posted:Wand of Wands. One charge. Creates a new Wand of Wands. Sword of Swording, can swing the sword like a sword.
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Apr 12, 2017 04:03
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kingcom posted:Sword of Swording, can swing the sword like a sword. But make it still somehow worse than the wand of wands.
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Apr 12, 2017 04:07
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Bring Your Own BYOB
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Apr 12, 2017 04:17
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Kaysette posted:But make it still somehow worse than the wand of wands. Its a once per day ability since martials keep complaining that wizards get them 
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Apr 12, 2017 04:51
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kingcom posted:Sword of Swording, can swing the sword like a sword. From a campaign that died before I got to use it. The "artifact" of a joke organization called the Compass Knights: Compass Rose Longsword, clocks as vaguely magical. Its enchantment simply makes the tip magnetic. There's a brass pin on the crossguard. If you place it in the ground pin down it'll point North.
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Apr 12, 2017 05:10
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Maybe they have a chance encounter with something akin to the 'World Serpent Inn', and get introduced to a Sorcerer Smith that can reforge their weapon and add a minor enchantment to it (1d4 extra damage to a monster type, or roll and maybe get an elemental damage?) ... for only the cost of a hefty sum of gold, several magical items that the smith will drain the magic from and infuse into the weapon, and the monster bits of a whatever to try and get a kind of 'bane' for that. A little too video game-y? I don't know! I've never done any of this stuff 
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Apr 12, 2017 07:16
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lifg posted:Wand of Wands. One charge. Creates a new Wand of Wands.
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Apr 12, 2017 11:23
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Vengarr posted:I think you could fairly read that statement as "Magic is rare and powerful, there aren't workshops churning out magic items, you can only gain them from adventures."
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Apr 12, 2017 11:35
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Splicer posted:It's called the marginal utility of money. One of the best design features of Red Markets (and I believe Blades in the Dark does this too) is to introduce a significant maintenance and overhead cost to simply going out and doing the dungeon-delving thing, such that you need part of the loot just to break even, and failure means you might not be able to carry your weapon into the next adventure, never mind buying another one. It's something that I wish D&D had, but it would require so much work and math to insert.
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Apr 12, 2017 11:43
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Splicer posted:So you need to either introduce day-to-day or major one-time expenses (paying for food and supplies, frequent magic weapon upgrades, castles and airships, potions and wands, and/or frequently being robbed) or... when was the last time they paid taxes again? I'd think that at least castles and airships would need maintenance, if not actually incurring taxes from the local lords/air guilds/whatever. If the players really rake it in, they might see things like the lord's personal guard getting better equipment or the airship harbour developing new services. Tax collection and transport could add story hooks too. Armor and weapons could have repair costs, but that's a little crunchy for me.
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Apr 12, 2017 11:54
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gradenko_2000 posted:One of the best design features of Red Markets (and I believe Blades in the Dark does this too) is to introduce a significant maintenance and overhead cost to simply going out and doing the dungeon-delving thing, such that you need part of the loot just to break even, and failure means you might not be able to carry your weapon into the next adventure, never mind buying another one. You could do it in Basic and 1e with hireling costs pretty easily I think.
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Apr 12, 2017 12:58
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What happens if an adventurer can't afford a weapon? It seems like there should never be a reason to reduce a character below starting wealth, or even a level-adjusted amount. If the fighter can't afford plate the party isn't going to be able to fight at-level content.
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Apr 12, 2017 13:57
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Subjunctive posted:What happens if an adventurer can't afford a weapon? It seems like there should never be a reason to reduce a character below starting wealth, or even a level-adjusted amount. If the fighter can't afford plate the party isn't going to be able to fight at-level content. Red Markets strives to capture something the author calls "economic horror", or the slow death spiral of not making enough money causing you to cut corners and/or go into debt, and that corner cutting means you're less likely to succeed this next time, which means you go into more debt and have to make do with even less yet again, and so on and so forth as a sort of thinly-veiled allegory for poverty under late-stage capitalism. In that context, it would probably be completely in keeping with the theme for the Fighter to forego the use of a sword if two adventures ago they didn't have enough money to repair/maintain it, and then one adventure ago it broke and they didn't have enough money to replace it, and now they have to make do with a quarterstaff or a particularly burly tree twig. In a less punishing view of gameplay, I agree that the player should probably not be allowed to fail harder than "I'm down to my short sword and chain mail and nothing else"
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Apr 12, 2017 14:15
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gradenko_2000 posted:Thanks Gumdrop Larry for the tip-off. Oh... I guess i missed that bit. I had my 4th level players start with a bunch of money and an uncommon magic item. Petr posted:Doesn't the PHB explicitly say that magic items are generally above the gold economy, and you shouldn't expect to just wander into shops and buy them? So what do you even accumulate gold for? What about 'kill things and take their stuff'
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Apr 12, 2017 14:56
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Put a super weird merchant in every dungeon who refuses to explain what he's doing there or what he's using the money for. Can't find a key? He can sell you one. Can't solve a puzzle? He'll sell you the answer. Want a generic tip on how to find special loot? He can sell you that tip. Want a random item package of increasingly good value? He'll sell you a mystery chest. He's basically the premium vendor.
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Apr 12, 2017 16:36
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