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Lestaki posted:
She does seem to get a little stronger, (partially due to accepting her limits and working with them instead of ramming 'em headlong) but yeah. It's unusual. Most shows, someone who gets a complete arc goes from "I am not a good pilot" to "I am better than almost anyone". Iron Blooded Orphans season 2 has two arcs about people wanting to be better pilots, and neither of them reaches the top. Julieta goes from "I will do anything to be stronger" to "I won't sacrifice the rest of my life to be a better weapon" (both ensuring she'll never be good enough to beat Mikazuki in a fair fight, and saving her from his fate), while Hush just charges on to his death, never reaching the heights he aimed for, because he never had the right stuff in the first place and because his goal was as mad as every other goal Tekkadan took up in the second season. A lot of parallels going around there, looking back.
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Apr 12, 2017 02:13
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This isn't really related to IBO but I'm kinda sick of having sci-fi settings that involve human augmentation through technology go into dumb "but what about humanity, you're losing your humanity  " moralizing.Again, not related to IBO, because it didn't do that at any point and the alterations that happened to the Tekkadan kids in general and Mikazuki specifically, and what happened to Ein, were bad for reasons that aren't vague whining about staying human, maaaan. RottenK fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 03:43
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tsob posted:The point is rather undercut when one man with a very basic machine nearly did triumph over the whole of the settings military and political forces, and was only stopped because of another single man in a single machine. Rustal's use of the Dainsleif's seems much more emblamatic of that theme than McGillis almost succeeding and only really being stopped by one guy. A guy it's heavily implied is one of the few things that could have stopped him. That scene was very deliberately cut to show McGillis's point of view(brave invincible individual soldier striking terror into his helpless opponents with his sheer power) as ludicrous. Rustal deliberately holds almost all of his forces back because he's doing the equivalent of nudging his subordinates with his elbow and going "This poo poo is going to be HILARIOUS". He could have obliterated the Bael with Dainsleif fire on approach or swamped it from literally all sides with enough mobile suits to cocoon the drat thing at pretty much any point, but he was fulfilling his end of the bargain with Gaelio by giving Gaelio his grand final battle. There was no "oh gently caress!" moment like during Shino's suicide rush, which legit caught Rustal completely off guard and only Julietta's last moment action saved him. During McGillis's suicide charge Rustal was entirely calm and in control.
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Apr 12, 2017 04:04
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Yeah, McGillis never had a chance. He was the only person who thought he really had a chance and even Gaelio was yelling at him to stop being a goddamn idiot.
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Apr 12, 2017 04:06
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I wonder if the remaining Seven Stars wished they had backed McGillis once Rustal started his reforms.
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Apr 12, 2017 04:09
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Kanos posted:That scene was very deliberately cut to show McGillis's point of view(brave invincible individual soldier striking terror into his helpless opponents with his sheer power) as ludicrous. Rustal deliberately holds almost all of his forces back because he's doing the equivalent of nudging his subordinates with his elbow and going "This poo poo is going to be HILARIOUS". He could have obliterated the Bael with Dainsleif fire on approach or swamped it from literally all sides with enough mobile suits to cocoon the drat thing at pretty much any point, but he was fulfilling his end of the bargain with Gaelio by giving Gaelio his grand final battle. Seriously, Rustal was all but outright saying "No, wait. Shh, shh, just watch this guys; This poo poo is going to be funny as hell  .
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Apr 12, 2017 04:09
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Ethiser posted:I wonder if the remaining Seven Stars wished they had backed McGillis once Rustal started his reforms. I don't get the impression they lost THAT much power. They're no longer in the fantastical shape they were but they're probably still wealthy as poo poo and in strong political positions.
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Apr 12, 2017 04:11
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Kanos posted:That scene was very deliberately cut to show McGillis's point of view(brave invincible individual soldier striking terror into his helpless opponents with his sheer power) as ludicrous. Rustal deliberately holds almost all of his forces back because he's doing the equivalent of nudging his subordinates with his elbow and going "This poo poo is going to be HILARIOUS". He could have obliterated the Bael with Dainsleif fire on approach or swamped it from literally all sides with enough mobile suits to cocoon the drat thing at pretty much any point, but he was fulfilling his end of the bargain with Gaelio by giving Gaelio his grand final battle. if McGillis won against Gaelio, he'd be close enough to Rustal's ship to have a chance of succesfully rushing in and swording the command bridge, especially since Rustal's forces were keeping distance. Not that this disproves your point about Rustal being able to easily off McGillis before he gets anywhere close to him, he just put himself at some risk when he decided to wait and watch the showdown.
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Apr 12, 2017 04:12
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ImpAtom posted:I don't get the impression they lost THAT much power. They're no longer in the fantastical shape they were but they're probably still wealthy as poo poo and in strong political positions. A full three of the Seven Stars families were gone, and they relied on their status as upstanding nobles above reproach to remain in power. The infighting and public scandals would not have gone over well with the Earth blocs.
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Apr 12, 2017 04:16
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Now that I think about it, I'd kinda like it if that happened. Rustal gets what he deserves, and Macky's insane delusions are still crushed when Rustal's soldiers rush him together and tear Bael apart instead of worshipping him for being the coolest strongest most handsome man around. But then we'd lose that great last scene of McGillis and Gaelio, and that'd be a big shame.
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Apr 12, 2017 04:18
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Neddy Seagoon posted:A full three of the Seven Stars families were gone, and they relied on their status as upstanding nobles above reproach to remain in power. The infighting and public scandals would not have gone over well with the Earth blocs. Lets not forget that to truly out McGillis as "not his real son" McGillis Senior would have had to admit his peodophilia. Once you start going down the road of finding the skeletons in Gjallahorn's closet, things are going to get icky real fast.
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Apr 12, 2017 04:25
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I can't be the only one who saw McGillis' last ride as less Power Trip and more Suicide by Cop, can I? The dude was definitely shown to be unhinged and broken as hell for all of S2, but the whole lead up to the final battle between him and Gaelio telegraphed that either he didn't think he was coming back or at least acknowledged the slim odds despite his bravado. And it's not like he has a whole lot of options either since there's no way he's not getting executed if he turned himself in or is captured. So instead of dragging everyone down he dismisses the crew that were still loyal to him, has some uncharacteristically kind words for Hitler-'stache, and then when combat commences he monologues to himself like the crazy he is to keep his nerve up. But right when it's actually looking like maybe he's got a chance, here comes his former best friend to end him (plus kill a few more of his own guys) and welp! there goes McGillis' last spring. Maybe I'm just looking at it through rose colored glasses since I actually liked McGillis from S1 and was glad he ended up being pretty much on-the-level with Tekkadan.
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Apr 12, 2017 05:35
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0x0hShit posted:I can't be the only one who saw McGillis' last ride as less Power Trip and more Suicide by Cop, can I? The dude was definitely shown to be unhinged and broken as hell for all of S2, but the whole lead up to the final battle between him and Gaelio telegraphed that either he didn't think he was coming back or at least acknowledged the slim odds despite his bravado. And it's not like he has a whole lot of options either since there's no way he's not getting executed if he turned himself in or is captured. So instead of dragging everyone down he dismisses the crew that were still loyal to him, has some uncharacteristically kind words for Hitler-'stache, and then when combat commences he monologues to himself like the crazy he is to keep his nerve up. But right when it's actually looking like maybe he's got a chance, here comes his former best friend to end him (plus kill a few more of his own guys) and welp! there goes McGillis' last spring. I don't know if this reading really pans out. When he's fighting Gaelio he's gloating loudly about how his philosophy of power is being proven by all of the enemy troops floating around in stunned terror at his and Gaelio's prowess(despite that not being the case at all) and when Gaelio finally sticks him he's completely flabbergasted that Gaelio could actually beat him. Even then, his first response is to pull out a pistol and try to go shoot Rustal because if only he proves himself the strongest then everyone will fall in line. Until the very end when he's bleeding out in Gaelio's arms he seems pretty committed to the idea that he himself can change the entire world with his own two hands.
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Apr 12, 2017 08:30
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0x0hShit posted:I can't be the only one who saw McGillis' last ride as less Power Trip and more Suicide by Cop, can I? The dude was definitely shown to be unhinged and broken as hell for all of S2, but the whole lead up to the final battle between him and Gaelio telegraphed that either he didn't think he was coming back or at least acknowledged the slim odds despite his bravado. And it's not like he has a whole lot of options either since there's no way he's not getting executed if he turned himself in or is captured. So instead of dragging everyone down he dismisses the crew that were still loyal to him, has some uncharacteristically kind words for Hitler-'stache, and then when combat commences he monologues to himself like the crazy he is to keep his nerve up. But right when it's actually looking like maybe he's got a chance, here comes his former best friend to end him (plus kill a few more of his own guys) and welp! there goes McGillis' last spring. I see it too. The monologuing and his staggering on foot, still with gun in hand, come from the self-delusion of his perfect, unstoppable crusade, but him sending away all his men, despite him clearly understanding the difference in war potential in previous episodes, really seems to signal that he expected it to all end in death. And keeping his nerve up by fooling himself with grandiose delusions makes it pretty internally consistent, even if maybe he has some hang-ups about losing to Gaelio still.
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Apr 12, 2017 08:45
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booksnake posted:I see it too. The monologuing and his staggering on foot, still with gun in hand, come from the self-delusion of his perfect, unstoppable crusade, but him sending away all his men, despite him clearly understanding the difference in war potential in previous episodes, really seems to signal that he expected it to all end in death. And keeping his nerve up by fooling himself with grandiose delusions makes it pretty internally consistent, even if maybe he has some hang-ups about losing to Gaelio still. I think that the show leaves it ambiguous at the very least - there's the equally valid interpretation that he saw sending away his men as being like Goku taking off his weighted training gear, after the taste of spectacular success he had with his single-handed breakout from the Arianrhod encirclement (which was, of course, another thing that Rustal let happen).
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Apr 12, 2017 08:50
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Darth Walrus posted:I think that the show leaves it ambiguous at the very least - there's the equally valid interpretation that he saw sending away his men as being like Goku taking off his weighted training gear, after the taste of spectacular success he had with his single-handed breakout from the Arianrhod encirclement (which was, of course, another thing that Rustal let happen). McGillis even muses during his breakout about this. "Lupus Rex...wolves are pack animals. That life isn't for me."
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Apr 12, 2017 09:46
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The shocking twist to McGillis is that there was no twist and he really is just a psychotic manchild who had no plan beyond "I HAVE BAEL" and didn't backstab Tekkadan. And that owns.
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Apr 12, 2017 10:58
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RottenK posted:The shocking twist to McGillis is that there was no twist and he really is just a psychotic manchild who had no plan beyond "I HAVE BAEL" and didn't backstab Tekkadan.
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Apr 12, 2017 21:06
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I would rank this show Good instead of OK because of three things 1. McGillis 2. Gaelio 3. Carta's army of McGillis look-a-likes
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Apr 12, 2017 22:28
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everydayfalls posted:Lets not forget that to truly out McGillis as "not his real son" McGillis Senior would have had to admit his peodophilia. Once you start going down the road of finding the skeletons in Gjallahorn's closet, things are going to get icky real fast. I never really got the impression that this came up at all. In fact, judging by reactions, what caused McGillis to be thrown out of the Seven Stars wasn't that he wasn't that he was adopted (as most people knew this, they were just told that he was illegitimate), but that he had no Seven Stars blood at all, which is what people saw as the sticking point to him being the heir. No need to admit to that when the far nicer truth will get the same result.
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Apr 12, 2017 23:39
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And we can even file IBO next to Berserk in works of Japanese entertainment that showcase the motivational powers of boy rape. 
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Apr 13, 2017 02:30
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its hosed up that nothing really bad happened to Iznario and that he even got to have revenge on McGillis
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Apr 13, 2017 04:05
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RottenK posted:its hosed up that nothing really bad happened to Iznario and that he even got to have revenge on McGillis I mean he did have his entire life's ambition utterly destroyed by McGillis and was removed from power for all time(note that they say the Fareed branch of the Stars is gone rather than reverting back to Iznario's control). It's definitely not as satisfying as seeing him trash compactored like Iok but he definitely was punished on at least some level by McGillis's actions, even if Iznario then gets to live out the rest of his life in a cozy mountain cabin or whatever. IBO is pretty cynical.
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Apr 13, 2017 04:40
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RottenK posted:The shocking twist to McGillis is that there was no twist and he really is just a psychotic manchild who had no plan beyond "I HAVE BAEL" and didn't backstab Tekkadan. MacGillis is the best Char. His depiction is so unflattering and I'm pleased about that. Char is depicted with such "but he's SO COOL and TRAGIC" that for him to be taken down with all his goals unfulfilled is rather satisfying really. None of this "oh let's overlook his dating predilections" or "well he's really a very good man and he should have led Zeon" or anything. No, no he shouldn't. He's not a good man and IBO handled him without undermining that message. Also it cracks me up that his "wolves are pack animals and I DON'T NEED A PAAACK" comes after trying repeatedly to recruit Mika and getting rebuffed. You go rationalize yourself, dude.
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Apr 14, 2017 15:12
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Char didn't have any dubious dating predilections (Lalah was only a couple of years younger than Char who was a teen himself at the time, Reccoa and Nanai were adults), he died without fulfilling any of his goals while having just yelled about how a teenager could have been a mother to him and he was only ever seen as a good man in Zeta Gundam. Everything, including Zeta where he's actually depicted as heroic takes time to point out how flawed he is, and 0079 and Char's Counterattack both make him look fairly pathetic. Char's Counterattack does have Lalah's ghost try to tell Amuro he's a good person deep down, but it's only ever there to highlight the tragedy of how life and circumstance have twisted him - not to absolve him of anything he's done in pursuit of revenge. Just because he has followers who believe in him doesn't mean we, the audience are supposed to believe he's good. It's pretty easy to see Char as pathetic. Just because some people can squint their eyes and only see the cool doesn't mean otherwise. Those same people will do the same with McGillis more than likely. The idea Char was a pedo is essentially a meme that started among fans, was adopted in to the actual animation in Char's Counterattack with Gyunei trying to deflate Quess' infatuation by repeating that Char still dreamed about Lalah and became larger than life over time, with McGillis eventually being the first actually possible pedo Char clone. tsob fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Apr 14, 2017 |
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Apr 14, 2017 15:35
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tsob posted:Char's didn't have any dubious dating predilections (Lalah was only a couple of years younger than him, Reccoa and Nanai were adults), he died without fulfilling any of his goals while having just yelled about how a teenager could have been a mother to him and he was only ever seen as a good man in Zeta Gundam. Everything, including Zeta where he's actually depicted as heroic takes time to point out how flawed he is, and 0079 and Char's Counterattack both make him look fairly pathetic. Char's Counterattack does have Lalah's ghost try to tell Amuro he's a good person deep down, but it's only ever there to highlight the tragedy of how life and circumstance have twisted him - not to absolve him of anything he's done in pursuit of revenge. Well, there was Quess. And Haman, if you believe they actually had a thing before he left. I mean, yeah, he was very obviously just buttering Quess up so he could use her powers, but that just brings us right back to the can of worms of whether he truly cared for any woman other than Lalah.
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Apr 14, 2017 15:46
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i don't think that Macky was a pedo, just a manchild who had a much easier time forming emotional bonds with kids. i don't think that he had any intention of doing anything to Almiria.
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Apr 14, 2017 18:40
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I think McGillis probably did care about her but he probably cared about her in his storybook 'she is the poor innocent princess and I will protect her!!" way. I think once you get past his mask Macky is probably sub-Mika in terms of genuinely being able to understand and connect with people because he's only able to really view things through his own made-up fantasy world. He lives in a Gundam series explicitly about space knights taking on space dragons and becoming famous and powerful for it so he isn't entirely misguided but he's unable to realize that whatever truth exists in the history of Gjallerhorn isn't the whole truth. Him getting Bael makes sense because he WANTS to star in a Gundam series. The fact that he acts like a Char isn't a bug but a feature there because he's probably to some degree a commentary on the kind of guy who thinks Char is cooler than Amuro in addition.
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Apr 14, 2017 18:52
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Darth Walrus posted:but that just brings us right back to the can of worms of whether he truly cared for any woman other than Lalah. Spoilers he didn't. Even in the end, with his final and most desperate plan in motion, he breaks down and makes it all about her.
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Apr 14, 2017 20:06
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Macky is a tragic, sociopathic man-child. Cheese knows how many years of physical, emotional and sexual trauma he had to endure and how badly it messed him up that his father-figure / sugar daddy was the kind of poo poo-stain that kept him around both as a potential heir and as a "bed-warmer". As twisted as he eventually showed himself to be, the relationships with the two Bauduin kids were the two most humanizing relationships for the dude, and I find it rather poignant that, along with his own shortcomings, they both played a part in his downfall (with Almiria's hand on said downfall being accidental while Gaelio's was deliberate). Sure, he had the loyalty of the Outer Earth Joint Regulatory Fleet and the Revolutionaries, but outside of maybe Isurugi, who was most definitely not in the same standing as McGillis, these two people were the ones who treated him as a human. poo poo, they, along with Carta, were the closest thing that he felt was a family, despite the fact that, even at the very end, he was still kinda "beep boop, what is this friendship you speak of". The one thing McGillis, as a character, makes me wish, is that maybe we can put the "He is a CHAR!" thing to rest. It's been 38 years since the first episode of Gundam aired, guys. Yes, he's still up to this day one of the most memorable elements about the UC Gundam series, but c'mon. I'm also not that fond of the not-uncommon One Year War reference framing device either, but since that traces its influences back to World War II and not every Gundam series uses that frame, then I guess we can let it slide.
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Apr 14, 2017 20:24
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It must suck to be a Char clone, you have this whole distinct personality, life goals and dreams, but you just happen to have blonde hair and occasionally wear a mask and everyone just looks skin deep. They never get to know the real me.
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Apr 14, 2017 20:34
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Wark Say posted:Macky is a tragic, sociopathic man-child. Cheese knows how many years of physical, emotional and sexual trauma he had to endure and how badly it messed him up that his father-figure / sugar daddy was the kind of poo poo-stain that kept him around both as a potential heir and as a "bed-warmer". As twisted as he eventually showed himself to be, the relationships with the two Bauduin kids were the two most humanizing relationships for the dude, and I find it rather poignant that, along with his own shortcomings, they both played a part in his downfall (with Almiria's hand on said downfall being accidental while Gaelio's was deliberate). Sure, he had the loyalty of the Outer Earth Joint Regulatory Fleet and the Revolutionaries, but outside of maybe Isurugi, who was most definitely not in the same standing as McGillis, these two people were the ones who treated him as a human. poo poo, they, along with Carta, were the closest thing that he felt was a family, despite the fact that, even at the very end, he was still kinda "beep boop, what is this friendship you speak of". To be honest, though, McGillis is one of the closest recent takes on Char, with the big difference that he came from nowhere and wants to become someone by piloting giant robots really well, while Char came from somewhere and would prefer to become a nobody who happens to pilot giant robots really well. If anything, he's evidence that you can still do fresh, interesting things with that hoary old formula.
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Apr 14, 2017 20:38
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The formula of someone wearing a mask and being blonde, yeah you can totally do a lot with that.
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Apr 14, 2017 20:41
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Snooze Cruise posted:The formula of someone wearing a mask and being blonde, yeah you can totally do a lot with that. And being an emotionally-stunted manchild who far too many people on both sides of the conflict pin their hopes on, only to end up dying horribly. And having bizarre, destructive relationships with the opposite sex, some of whom are very young, which demonstrate both his capacity for manipulation and his total lack of emotional maturity. And having a close, intimate friendship with/implied seduction of a good-natured but naive purple-haired aristocrat that ends with him betraying him in a way that makes him look the more evil of the two despite technically helping our heroes. And, you know, the fighting style, and the kind of uncomfortable last words, and... Yeah, McGillis, he is a CHAR, and a pretty comprehensive one at that.
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Apr 14, 2017 20:55
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Being blonde was never a requirement though?
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Apr 14, 2017 20:57
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Tae posted:Being blonde was never a requirement though? They don't even wear masks sometimes. That is why its kinda silly. e: basically I agree with Wark Say. Like Char Clones are of course visual references to Char, but that visual reference is usually just used as a quick way to inform you of the sorta role this character may have in the story, it doesn't necessary mean its a commentary on that character type every single time. People wearing masks are just cool. Snooze Cruise fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Apr 14, 2017 |
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Apr 14, 2017 21:00
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My favorite "He is a Char!" character is, has been, and always will be Harry Ord, even if he takes more cues from the Quattro Bajeena phase of the older Deikun brother than anything.
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Apr 14, 2017 21:52
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But Harry wasn't even a bad guy, and he never betrayed anyone??? Aren't those two things important for the whole Char thing. im new to gundams
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Apr 15, 2017 03:27
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Wark Say posted:The one thing McGillis, as a character, makes me wish, is that maybe we can put the "He is a CHAR!" thing to rest. It's been 38 years since the first episode of Gundam aired, guys. Yes, he's still up to this day one of the most memorable elements about the UC Gundam series, but c'mon. I'm also not that fond of the not-uncommon One Year War reference framing device either, but since that traces its influences back to World War II and not every Gundam series uses that frame, then I guess we can let it slide. You're not going to have it happen because a lot of characters in Gundam exist as references to other Gundam shows. You may not like it but the franchise has long since descended into metacommentary where even the shows that explicitly are trying to break away from Gundam's OYW heritage end up rooted in it. (See the final battle of 00 being RX-78-2 piloted by Amuro Ray or McGillis's very very blatant Char elements.) It's a real problem only emboldened by the fact that the most popular Gundam shows tend to be the retreads. (Unicorn and SEED being blatant examples of it.) IBO is a lot better than most recent Gundam shows in that it minimalizes it except for the "Man, a child soldier in a war machine is hosed up" parts except for McGillis who unfortunately is one of the most memorable parts of the show and contributes to that.
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Apr 15, 2017 03:34
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RottenK posted:But Harry wasn't even a bad guy, and he never betrayed anyone??? Harry Ord is basically the anti-Char, with some clear Quatro inspirations. He's got the shades and the shiny gold MS, and he got his start as the most dangerous foe the Gundam ran into. But yeah. Anti-Char. Where Char is continually betraying everyone, Harry's the one dude whose loyalty is never in question. Where Char is emotionally hosed up, Harry's one of the most stable and levelheaded dudes in the correct century. And where Char's relationships and life are disaster areas that gently caress up everyone who gets close, Harry winds up with a pretty solid endgame, hooking up with a woman in his age bracket who makes the world a much better place. And where Char has something at least remotely resembling fashion sense... Well. Harry Ord. chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Apr 15, 2017 |
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Apr 15, 2017 03:41
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