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Cyrano4747 posted:"Hearts and minds" is a joke because of how badly it gets implemented but it really is the core of a good counter insurgent strategy. The kicker that often makes it gently caress up is you need to be willing to address what is turning the rebels against you in the first place. What if instead of addressing anything you turn around after winning a civil war and use chemical weapons against those who opposed you?
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Apr 16, 2017 09:03
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For every successful insurgency there's a dozen failed ones you've never even heard of.
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Apr 16, 2017 09:37
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Also a successful insurgency still typically involves accepting a loss rate of 8-1. Insurgent tactics are not about small rebel bands inflicting attrition on a cumbersome army, it is about accepting enormous losses in the expectation that a) you can replace them from a population that hates the regime and b) the national army/foreign invaders don't really want to fight and will make concession after having suffered minimal losses.
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Apr 16, 2017 09:52
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Apparently it was either a flop or however Hollywood calls a low-grossing movie: $150 million budget, $210 worldwide gross. It would be a pleasant surprise if we ever saw a sequel. Don't forget that production budget doesn't include marketing which can easily end up doubling the overall budget. It wouldn't be a surprise here if the movie did actually lose money. It's why people are labelling Ghostbusters 2016 as such a flop since the studio clearly spent a shitton on marketing, making their overall poor return much worse when you factor that in.
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Apr 16, 2017 10:29
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EggsAisle posted:Are there cases where it has worked? This has me really curious now. The Malayan Emergency (mind you coupled with some pretty brutal poo poo towards actual suspected insurgents, who were largely from a different ethnic group). feedmegin fucked around with this message at 11:32 on Apr 16, 2017 |
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Apr 16, 2017 11:30
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FAUXTON posted:I bet if it made some poo poo up about him fighting the Ottomans it would sell like crazy in the US but nowadays there's China to consider and who knows what they like in their naval battle movies. Given the time period Barbary Coast pirates would work better. Cameo from the US Marines for added oorah!
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Apr 16, 2017 11:35
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freedom
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I hate to bring up ACW, but in what way was the industrial strength of the North important to the warfighting effort? It's not like the sides had to replace industrially busy stuff like tanks and planes, it was mostly dudes and muskets, and I don't recall that the South was running out of guns at any point. So what is the industrial benefit? Making more rolling stock to transport troops and supply? Being able to manufacture parts of kit that made life a little less horrible for the soldiers? Cannons? Trade/civilian goods that made the war less impactful on trade, civvies and fat cats?
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Apr 16, 2017 11:41
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FAUXTON posted:I bet if it made some poo poo up about him fighting the Ottomans it would sell like crazy in the US but nowadays there's China to consider and who knows what they like in their naval battle movies. In The Ionian Mission HMS Surprise takes a frigate called the Torgud that's owned by some Ottoman Bey. I remember it had some sort of ridiculous 70+ pounder carronade that fired hand-carved marble balls.
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Apr 16, 2017 11:42
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JcDent posted:I hate to bring up ACW, but in what way was the industrial strength of the North important to the warfighting effort? It's not like the sides had to replace industrially busy stuff like tanks and planes, it was mostly dudes and muskets, and I don't recall that the South was running out of guns at any point. So what is the industrial benefit? Making more rolling stock to transport troops and supply? Being able to manufacture parts of kit that made life a little less horrible for the soldiers? Cannons? Trade/civilian goods that made the war less impactful on trade, civvies and fat cats? The South had rather endemic issues of not having clothes, boots and weapons in sufficient quantities.
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Apr 16, 2017 11:47
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Artillery had become a major factor in field battles by then hadn't it? It's not just handheld weapons you need to build, but heavy iron.
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Apr 16, 2017 12:02
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JcDent posted:I hate to bring up ACW, but in what way was the industrial strength of the North important to the warfighting effort? It's not like the sides had to replace industrially busy stuff like tanks and planes, it was mostly dudes and muskets, and I don't recall that the South was running out of guns at any point. So what is the industrial benefit? Making more rolling stock to transport troops and supply? Being able to manufacture parts of kit that made life a little less horrible for the soldiers? Cannons? Trade/civilian goods that made the war less impactful on trade, civvies and fat cats? As I understand it, the confederates began with a good force based on the militias, but was in a position where they had real trouble replacing losses. Meanwhile the Union had to outfit hundreds of thousands of volunteers in a hurry, and throughout the war to replace losses, and this was enabled by their industrial might. Union artillery was also much better. There's also stuff like repeating rifles. Fangz fucked around with this message at 12:07 on Apr 16, 2017 |
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Apr 16, 2017 12:02
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JcDent posted:I hate to bring up ACW, but in what way was the industrial strength of the North important to the warfighting effort? It's not like the sides had to replace industrially busy stuff like tanks and planes, it was mostly dudes and muskets, and I don't recall that the South was running out of guns at any point. So what is the industrial benefit? Making more rolling stock to transport troops and supply? Being able to manufacture parts of kit that made life a little less horrible for the soldiers? Cannons? Trade/civilian goods that made the war less impactful on trade, civvies and fat cats? Railroads and rolling stock were huge. The South had very little railway capacity to move supplies around, even when they did have the supplies to send to the armies. Add in wear and tear on the locomotives, the use of rails as armor for warships, and the need to coordinate logistics with the state governments along the way and the North had a substantial logistics advantage.
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Apr 16, 2017 12:02
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JcDent posted:I hate to bring up ACW, but in what way was the industrial strength of the North important to the warfighting effort? It's not like the sides had to replace industrially busy stuff like tanks and planes, it was mostly dudes and muskets, And uniforms, wagons, shoes, ammunition, artillery pieces, horse bridles/equipment, so on and so forth. Any mundane item you could imagine, let's say a fork, needing to be manufactured or bought and then transported and distributed, times however many soldiers there are.
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Apr 16, 2017 12:10
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mllaneza posted:Railroads and rolling stock were huge. The South had very little railway capacity to move supplies around, even when they did have the supplies to send to the armies. Add in wear and tear on the locomotives, the use of rails as armor for warships, and the need to coordinate logistics with the state governments along the way and the North had a substantial logistics advantage. Also the prewar southern railway network was a hodgepodge of small operators more focused on shipping stuff from plantations and farms to the ports and not carrying passengers from one state to another. Also the  MAH STATES RAGHTS nature of the Confederate government made moving troops and supplies from one state to another hilariously, needlessly difficult.
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Apr 16, 2017 12:56
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The Lone Badger posted:Artillery had become a major factor in field battles by then hadn't it? It's not just handheld weapons you need to build, but heavy iron.
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Apr 16, 2017 13:09
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I just want to point out the importance of shoes in particular when it comes to fighting a war in which most of your army is on foot. There's a reason Sherman specifically pointed out the South could barely make a pair of shoes in his letter, and one side reason the Army of Northern Virginia headed to Gettysburg was because of a shoe warehouse there.
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Apr 16, 2017 13:12
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Don't forget the Union Navy started off with six active ships, and ended the war larger than the Royal Navy.
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Apr 16, 2017 13:18
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Also the prewar southern railway network was a hodgepodge of small operators more focused on shipping stuff from plantations and farms to the ports and not carrying passengers from one state to another. Also the I read that they literally had to disembark and wait for a new train every time they got to a state border?
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Apr 16, 2017 13:18
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The Lone Badger posted:I read that they literally had to disembark and wait for a new train every time they got to a state border? Not all the time, but this really did happen. In part because why the gently caress would different states make their railroads exactly the same gauge, you federalist tyrant?
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Apr 16, 2017 13:25
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Confederate artillery came in a large part from capturing Federal stocks and was notoriously ineffective because the fuses in their shells were terrible. It required massive consistent incompetence from the North for the war to not end in the first or second years.
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Apr 16, 2017 13:49
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Boots, shoes talk: I read somewhere ages ago that the confederates had serious issues regarding shoes but a cursory internet search reveals very little on the subject, most I could find was this. http://26nc.org/blog/?p=807 Particularly I remember (from somewhere) that on occasion many soldiers couldn't make it to the battles due to foot injuries from too much marching with no or very poor shoes. Anyone know more? Also, I looked up how many boots the USSR got during lend lease, 5.4 million boots! Also I happened upon this, complete list of lend lease, hope its legit. http://www.jrbooksonline.com/fdr-scandal-page/lend.html
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Apr 16, 2017 14:29
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I'm the http://www.jrbooksonline.com/fdr-scandal-page/
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Apr 16, 2017 14:38
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I'm communism at Pearl Harbor
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Apr 16, 2017 14:40
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feedmegin posted:Given the time period Barbary Coast pirates would work better. Cameo from the US Marines for added oorah! There are a few books with him meddling in Barbary politics. Another few good ones about fighting the deadly American frigates. The original villain in Far Side of the World was an American commerce raider. Desolation Island would be a good one, American espionage on one hand and a deadly chase in the frigid Antarctic seas.
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Apr 16, 2017 14:40
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sullat posted:There are a few books with him meddling in Barbary politics. Another few good ones about fighting the deadly American frigates. The original villain in Far Side of the World was an American commerce raider. Desolation Island would be a good one, American espionage on one hand and a deadly chase in the frigid Antarctic seas. I'm fully aware, but we're discussing how to make mad US box office. Movies where the Americans are the opponent rather than the good guys tend not to be popular in America  (Though Hollywood was A-OK with eg screening The Patriot over in the UK, mind you)
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Apr 16, 2017 15:03
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feedmegin posted:I'm fully aware, but we're discussing how to make mad US box office. Movies where the Americans are the opponent rather than the good guys tend not to be popular in America Dances with wolves was a huge success.
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Apr 16, 2017 15:06
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Nenonen posted:Dances with wolves was a huge success. Compare its box office take to the 3d remake
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Apr 16, 2017 15:51
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quote:Also, I looked up how many boots the USSR got during lend lease, 5.4 million boots! Also I happened upon this, complete list of lend lease, hope its legit. I'm the lone land lease curling iron, valued at USD8, and a single pencil lead (1 gram) sold for USD5. Also I'm 13,328 teeth and 4 novelty clocks. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Apr 16, 2017 |
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Apr 16, 2017 16:01
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Delivery McGee posted:The grenade launcher in the predator clip is just as bad. IRL the sound is kinda disappointing: Indoors, grenade launchers can still be plenty loud. My friend fired a practice round at a rental range and it sounds not unlike a shotgun.
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Apr 16, 2017 16:17
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JcDent posted:I hate to bring up ACW, but in what way was the industrial strength of the North important to the warfighting effort? It's not like the sides had to replace industrially busy stuff like tanks and planes, it was mostly dudes and muskets, and I don't recall that the South was running out of guns at any point. So what is the industrial benefit? Making more rolling stock to transport troops and supply? Being able to manufacture parts of kit that made life a little less horrible for the soldiers? Cannons? Trade/civilian goods that made the war less impactful on trade, civvies and fat cats? In addition to what everyone else has said, they also had a HUGE problem getting modern artillery. By the mid-war period the Union was using a lot of rifled muzzle loading guns, most notably the parrot family of rifled cannon. This put the south at a huge disadvantage in artillery duels. We're talking the difference between shooting a barn at 600 yards and hitting the barn door. By the late war period any field battle involving cannon went very poorly for the south. Plus, they did have problems with other small arms. They never got quality rifled muskets in the numbers that the union did, and they had far bigger problems getting ammunition for the hodge podge of arms that they did have. I can't remember the specifics, but I recall an anecdote about some really quality English arms performing much shittier than they could have otherwise because they had to use a sub-caliber ball thats only virtue was it also worked in the slightly smaller bore gun from some other random source that the Army of Virginia was using.
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Apr 16, 2017 16:18
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I'm the fifty fur pelt hats.
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Apr 16, 2017 16:23
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German or American Explosives?
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Apr 16, 2017 16:26
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Nenonen posted:Dances with wolves was a huge success. Yes, but that also had an American as the hero, so he was allowed to kill Americans, plus everyone else he was chilling out with were also technically Americans. 19th century British Empire dudes as the heroes killing loads and loads of Americans? That goes against 40 years of Star Wars
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Apr 16, 2017 16:35
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BattleMoose posted:Also, I looked up how many boots the USSR got during lend lease, 5.4 million boots! Also I happened upon this, complete list of lend lease, hope its legit. I'm the "POODSTUFFS".
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Apr 16, 2017 16:37
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Shooting m203s irl is actually really satisfying and cool sounding.
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Apr 16, 2017 16:39
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Cyrano4747 posted:I can't remember the specifics, but I recall an anecdote about some really quality English arms performing much shittier than they could have otherwise because they had to use a sub-caliber ball thats only virtue was it also worked in the slightly smaller bore gun from some other random source that the Army of Virginia was using. The Lorenz rifles from Austria are probably what you're thinking of. They were from a country whose arms industry still involved individual gun makers in a cottage industry rather than factories mass producing off a pattern. This meant that ammo had to be measured to the individual rifle you've got, which is terribly impractical. Even though they're nominally .54 caliber, the bore diameter varied enough that your rifle would either be a perfect sniper rifle or worse than a dirty Brown Bess depending on which one you got if you tried to use standardized .54 caliber bullets.
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Apr 16, 2017 16:40
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jrbooksonline posted:Statement of Purpose.  feedmegin posted:Yes, but that also had an American as the hero, so he was allowed to kill Americans, plus everyone else he was chilling out with were also technically Americans. 19th century British Empire dudes as the heroes killing loads and loads of Americans? That goes against 40 years of Star Wars
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Apr 16, 2017 16:55
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Arquinsiel posted:
lol do you have a list? Is he talking about Huck Finn or Mein Kampf?
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Apr 16, 2017 16:56
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Cythereal posted:Not all the time, but this really did happen. In part because why the gently caress would different states make their railroads exactly the same gauge, you federalist tyrant? Note that this is still an issue in the EU. Spain uses a different gauge than most of the rest of Europe, and then you've got the Russian gauge that's used in the Baltics and Finland. Ireland uses a different gauge than everyone else.
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Apr 16, 2017 16:59
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Cyrano4747 posted:lol do you have a list? Is he talking about Huck Finn or Mein Kampf? 'd out.Phanatic posted:Ireland uses a different gauge than everyone else.
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Apr 16, 2017 17:00
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