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It's great how it's always the left that has to compromise in order to keep the Tories out while the centrists get to keep everything they want. Despite the fact that neoliberalism is dying across the globe and that left wing policies are shown time and again to be popular with the public. But no, literally the only way to oppose the Tories is to get on the neoliberal train otherwise you might just hand over your vote to Theresa May. After all, what's the point in politics if you don't get into power? Oh, please ignore the sign saying "Everything UKIP achieved despite having 1 MP max." If you keep telling people that you should vote them without giving them any reasons to do so other than "worse people will win", you end up with Trump. It's a political dead end.
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Apr 16, 2017 15:36
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It's the 10 year anniversary last week of Tony Blair's "I don't hate black people, I hate black culture" speech, a favorite phrase of thinkers like Dr. David Duke and now a staple of alt-right bullshit. I do hope this isn't the sensible centrism that we're going to be chasing.
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Apr 16, 2017 15:47
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the Are Blairites Really Tories debate feels a little stale two decades after 1997 anyway, re the remark on Miliband quote:On the left, this tendency to make emotional rather than rational decisions has had a fascinating side-effect. Both Corbyn supporters and sceptics tend to overestimate how radical he is: the former because they like the idea of him taking a hammer to what came before and the second because they don’t. the Guardian column goes on to make, I think, another good observation: quote:That doesn’t mean Corbynism is just microwaved Milibandism. It’s just that, overall, there hasn’t been the kind of ceremonial torching of Labour history and traditions that both sides sometimes like to suggest has occurred. Still, Corbyn has begun to build on the party’s longstanding principles to flesh out a platform of his own. He’s a kind of Tesco Finest Robin Hood: taking from the rich and giving not just to the poor, but to the middle class, too. Remember: when you hear muttering about a policy being a “middle-class bribe”, that’s code for “popular”. look forward to yet another Living Wage*, coming to a Tory press release near you * Living Wage may be funded by welfare cuts. Let's see if your PEOPLE'S POPULAR MOVEMENT OF THE PEOPLE can also math.
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Apr 16, 2017 15:54
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ronya posted:* Living Wage may be funded by welfare cuts. Let's see if your PEOPLE'S POPULAR MOVEMENT OF THE PEOPLE can also math. How is Living Wage funded by welfare cuts? Are you confusing it with basic income. It's paid for by the employers not the state.
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Apr 16, 2017 16:17
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ronya posted:look forward to yet another Living Wage*, coming to a Tory press release near you This is partly why Corbyn can't simply spend all his time between now and the election launching popular policies. Any that are deemed to be too popular, like free childcare at the last election, will be stolen by the government and twisted out of all recognition.
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Apr 16, 2017 16:18
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MikeCrotch posted:It's great how it's always the left that has to compromise in order to keep the Tories out while the centrists get to keep everything they want. Despite the fact that neoliberalism is dying across the globe and that left wing policies are shown time and again to be popular with the public. But no, literally the only way to oppose the Tories is to get on the neoliberal train otherwise you might just hand over your vote to Theresa May. After all, what's the point in politics if you don't get into power? Oh, please ignore the sign saying "Everything UKIP achieved despite having 1 MP max." This isn't America. You've won the argument. 'The left' has its chosen leader - and it's proving to be an unmitigated disaster.
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Apr 16, 2017 16:20
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not twisted out of all recognition as the column points out, Corbyn needs to give these policies legs by expanding them to have middle-class cover conversely, the Tories can just keep the middle-class cover and discard everything else - at least as long as they can keep their own people in line. anyway that said, the policy barrage is not bad. The GE is not tomorrow - the likely goal is consensus formation amongst target demos, for now. if Milne is any good, the pressure will be kept up just enough to keep party discourse on target, but not so high that any dissent is simply submerged until it explodes at a more inconvenient time later; loyalists need time to adjust to dissents made in good faith ronya fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Apr 16, 2017 |
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Apr 16, 2017 16:28
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Paxman posted:But what you call a "left" candidate is pretty much the same as a centre left candidate with different rhetoric. I'd have thought you Blairites would acknowledge how important & powerful rhetoric can be. Someone actually saying socialism is good, even when they aren't actually the second coming of Kropotkin or Marx, is better than someone delivering the same platform while saying socialism is hopeless, the free market is our god. Because it normalises socialism, it stops being this big scary evil.
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Apr 16, 2017 16:29
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MikeCrotch posted:It's great how it's always the left that has to compromise in order to keep the Tories out while the centrists get to keep everything they want. Despite the fact that neoliberalism is dying across the globe and that left wing policies are shown time and again to be popular with the public. But no, literally the only way to oppose the Tories is to get on the neoliberal train otherwise you might just hand over your vote to Theresa May. After all, what's the point in politics if you don't get into power? Oh, please ignore the sign saying "Everything UKIP achieved despite having 1 MP max." I think it's the inevitable result of conceiving ideology as a spectrum (or for that matter, a two-dimensional graph). A historical accident of spatial relations in ancien France isn't necessarily an accurate model for complex social and political forces. Lt. Danger fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Apr 16, 2017 |
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Apr 16, 2017 16:41
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ronya posted:
See I don't think means-testing a benefit can ever be described as a left-wing move. Benefits should be universal, and means testing just plays into the idea that there are deserving and undeserving cases, and also makes it far easier to game the system for those with the time and/or money to do so while making it harder for those who may need it the most to get it.
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Apr 16, 2017 16:42
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I'd be inclined to agree; I don't think left-right discourse has been useful for at least a decade or two by now (he says, self-identifying as left-wing).
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Apr 16, 2017 16:44
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goddamnedtwisto posted:See I don't think means-testing a benefit can ever be described as a left-wing move. Benefits should be universal, and means testing just plays into the idea that there are deserving and undeserving cases, and also makes it far easier to game the system for those with the time and/or money to do so while making it harder for those who may need it the most to get it. not sure about the ideological attribution here, since universality-vs-class-identity has been a pretty big liberal/left dividing line over the 20th century. There's always been deserving and undeserving, even for the left; it's just that the left has found that its traditional understanding of deserving (wage income) and undeserving (capital income) has been unable to either fund or mobilise support for its supposed big stepping-stone-to-bigger-things achievement (the welfare state) - never mind even bigger things. as a matter of instrumental political strategy in the neoliberal here-and-now, sure. I want to point out that whole countries can be stuck in the political trap where a plurality of the people keeps voting for "universal" programs and rights, and then rely on institutional failures and corruption to keep the costs down. There's always a plurality in favour of defending these programs, but not a plurality sufficient to eliminate these institutional failures; what a convenient coincidence. Call it Brazil. Or India, maybe. Britain is not a middle-income country, nor is it about to become one (despite the best efforts of Brexiters), but these political economies do exist and are pretty darned noxious. ronya fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Apr 16, 2017 |
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Apr 16, 2017 17:02
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what was the best bit of waterworld?
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Apr 16, 2017 17:07
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I have no idea, I've never watched Waterworld.
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Apr 16, 2017 17:09
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something doesnt add up here
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Apr 16, 2017 17:12
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It's Blairite deceit and double-talk.
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Apr 16, 2017 17:13
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ronya posted:It's Blairite deceit and double-talk. ONE OF US  ONE OF US ONE OF US
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Apr 16, 2017 17:17
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Increasing the minimum wage means employers are less likely to take on more employees and/or cut hours for current employees prove me wrong!
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Apr 16, 2017 17:18
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Dear Sir, I protest your ambiguous negations. I am, etc.,
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Apr 16, 2017 17:19
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Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:Increasing the minimum wage means employers are less likely to take on more employees and/or cut hours for current employees You should probably show some proof that what you are suggesting is true, since it doesn't seem to have happened ever: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36548374 http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/CP217.pdf http://irle.berkeley.edu/effects-of-a-15-minimum-wage-in-california-and-fresno/
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Apr 16, 2017 17:45
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ronya posted:if Milne is any good There's your problem.
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Apr 16, 2017 17:46
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The establishment won't like this as having to pay British workers more - as including the peers in the House of Lords as think that the Rights of 5.5 million + (and the rest?) EU nationals are superior to the lives of British citizens. Let's pay British workers properly so that they do not need benefits and government handouts and rid the EU red tape burden from business as will enable higher wages for British workers to be paid in lieu of many billions of £'s in collective business savings pa i.e. in ridding EU red tape. Do we think that 5.5 m + EU citizens is enough as is about 10% of the population of England? How many millions more immigrants do the establishment think should be crammed in to our tiny islands of GB - the police can't cope with the increase in population through immigration - no public services can stand the huge population increases unless taxes are to rise significantly to pay for the cost of immigrants.
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Apr 16, 2017 17:55
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Ratjaculation posted:The establishment won't like this as having to pay British workers more - as including the peers in the House of Lords as think that the Rights of 5.5 million + (and the rest?) EU nationals are superior to the lives of British citizens. It's only about 3.2m? Like I know you're trolling but even your numbers don't add up.
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Apr 16, 2017 18:07
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If we're worried about population increase, perhaps we should be looking closer to home first.
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Apr 16, 2017 18:07
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Guavanaut posted:If we're worried about population increase, perhaps we should be looking closer to home first. Castrate everyone and we can solve global warming.
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Apr 16, 2017 18:10
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Ratjaculation posted:The establishment won't like this as having to pay British workers more - as including the peers in the House of Lords as think that the Rights of 5.5 million + (and the rest?) EU nationals are superior to the lives of British citizens. Is this a markov chain bot of a UKIPer or what I'm not sure what i'm looking at here
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Apr 16, 2017 18:13
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Miftan posted:Castrate everyone and we can solve global warming.
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Apr 16, 2017 18:15
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Pissflaps posted:This isn't America. You've won the argument. 'The left' has its chosen leader - and it's proving to be an unmitigated disaster. Exactly. You're right. What I want to know is why you're ok with this? I agree that Corbyn is poo poo. But from actual comments from the public it isn't that he's a dull blithering man with 'poor leadership' that puts them off. No it's a complete rejection of leftist policies. So yes Corbyn is a disaster for Labour. But the rejection of leftist government is a disaster for us all. The only hope is for a charismatic benevolent liar. Someone who presents as a centrist but then implements leftist policy once in power. I find this an unlikely possibility. Corbyn's lack of ability has obscured the truth: That no one on the left would do much better in the polls. The bitter, twisted British public do not want a leftist government. You don't get that far ahead in the polls without the public actively supporting what you're doing. They support austerity, they support the harassment and slow dismantling of the NHS, they support low taxation on even the rich, they support councils being barely able to function, they support the interference and politicising of the education system. The left is dead but you can't see the apocalypse for the trees, too busy half trolling about Corbyn.
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Apr 16, 2017 18:20
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[quote="Regarde Aduck" post=""471416592"] You don't get that far ahead in the polls without the public actively supporting what you're doing. They support austerity, they support the harassment and slow dismantling of the NHS, they support low taxation on even the rich, they support councils being barely able to function, they support the interference and politicising of the education system. The left is dead but you can't see the apocalypse for the trees, too busy half trolling about Corbyn. [/quote] bit of an excluded middle here? Not dismantling the NHS, moderate tax raise and so on are the kind of policies that get MPs threatened with deselection as Blairite scum. Give the public what they want; promise to actually implement those left wing policies that poll at 50% or more, downplay or defer those ones supported by 5%. If that means some idiots stay at home because they think 'both sides are the same', hit them with sticks until the bad ideas fall out, or something (this bit of the plan is a bit fuzzy).
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Apr 16, 2017 18:36
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Seems the LibDems, who have been getting more and more hawkish since the bombing raid on that Syrian airbase, are now spearheading the war on the perfidious Johnny Foreigners in our midst. Home secretary urged to revoke Asma al-Assad's British citizenship quote:The home secretary has been urged to consider revoking the British passport of Asma al-Assad, the UK-born wife of the Syrian president, Bashar al-Assad, after her social media posts in support of his regime. Wait, wait, social media posts? That's not exactly organising an armed insurgency, now is it. Wonder what she said that could be a deportable offence? quote:After the US counterstrike on the regime, a message was posted on one of her accounts saying: “The presidency of the Syrian Arab Republic affirms that what America has done is an irresponsible act that only reflects a shortsightedness, a narrow horizon, a political and military blindness to reality and a naive pursuit of a frenzied false propaganda campaign.” gently caress the loving LibDems.
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Apr 16, 2017 19:00
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Tim Farron is terrified that Syria will weaponize the chemicals that make frogs gay.
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Apr 16, 2017 19:05
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TomViolence posted:Seems the LibDems, who have been getting more and more hawkish since the bombing raid on that Syrian airbase, are now spearheading the war on the perfidious Johnny Foreigners in our midst. she's also denying that her husband gassed civilians, that's kinda bad, imo
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Apr 16, 2017 19:10
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Realistically do we have a political party that aren't a joke? Lmbo
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Apr 16, 2017 19:10
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The Tory party aren't a joke. They're loving the country and killing people unopposed.
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Apr 16, 2017 19:12
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Kurtofan posted:she's also denying that her husband gassed civilians, that's kinda bad, imo Sure, but that's kind of to be expected isn't it? Either way, it's a bit illiberal and undemocratic of the liberal democrats to want to strip someone of British citizenship for saying something they don't like.
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Apr 16, 2017 19:14
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Pissflaps posted:The Tory party aren't a joke. They're loving the country and killing people unopposed. And yet you still aren't getting any. Tough times
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Apr 16, 2017 19:16
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lol turkey
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Apr 16, 2017 19:19
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Pissflaps posted:The Tory party aren't a joke. They're loving the country and killing people unopposed. They're a Killing Joke. Just like in the 80s.
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Apr 16, 2017 19:30
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Regarde Aduck posted:Corbyn's lack of ability has obscured the truth: That no one on the left would do much better in the polls. The bitter, twisted British public do not want a leftist government. The British public want leftist policies, though.
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Apr 16, 2017 19:40
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Ratjaculation posted:And yet you still aren't getting any. Tough times I don't understand this post.
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Apr 16, 2017 19:43
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