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Looked through OP and first couple pages, didn't see a great thing walking through perks/skills/other poo poo that needs to be levelled up. Don't remember how I had it before the reset. Is there a decent guide?
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Apr 16, 2017 03:18
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Get Inspire, maybe get ICTV, get Joker and the other skills that supercharge your converts, get that skill that makes suppressed weapons do 30% more damage.
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Apr 16, 2017 10:11
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I do hope the inevitable Payday 3 has a much more standardized system in how everything is supposed to work. As it stands, PD2 is a mashed together duct-taped abomination with so many experimental mini-mechanics and DLCs that operate on their own inconsistent rules for unlocking content from one pack to the next. That, and a much more refined engine. later released levels like Birth of Sky and Prison Nightmare really start to show the age and cracks in performance.
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Apr 16, 2017 12:01
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Yardbomb posted:Get Inspire, maybe get ICTV, get Joker and the other skills that supercharge your converts, get that skill that makes suppressed weapons do 30% more damage. Alternately - anarchist perk deck - die hard aced, heavy ballistic vest - shotgun skills (close by aced is important), overkill basic - steakout with 000, berserker aced, frenzy aced, bullseye aced, - other skills to suit tastes = murder everything with auto shotgun forever and regen armor by killing cops.
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Apr 16, 2017 20:33
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Tatsuta Age posted:Looked through OP and first couple pages, didn't see a great thing walking through perks/skills/other poo poo that needs to be levelled up. Don't remember how I had it before the reset. Is there a decent guide? You will always want the following skills: Resilience Aced (reduced flashbang effect) Duck and Cover (stamina/movement speed) Parkour (stamina/movement speed) Transporter (bag throwing) Popular quality of life skills also include: Transporter Aced (faster bag moving) Second Wind/Aced (more movement speed) General guidance: You will usually want to unlock ICTV if using an armor build, or one of a couple skills for dodge skills such as low blow or sneaky bastard. High difficulty builds: Joker skills (specifically Partner in Crime Aced) are practically mandatory. Specialized Killing (which increases damage on silenced weapons) makes silenced weapons very, very appealing on the top difficulties, where damage and ammo recovery are king. Skillsets to generally avoid: Turrets (aside from Jack of All Trades, the turret skills aren't useful because turrets are underpowered) Trip Mines (shaped charges can be useful in selective cases, but trip mines rarely are) ECM feedback for loud (other things are almost always more useful) Most stealth skills should be only used in a dedicated stealth build. Perk Decks: Brick has a guide here. I would note that after the difficulty update, complex builds involving Anarchist are becoming more popular, as are the Rogue and Muscle decks on the top difficulties.
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Apr 17, 2017 00:10
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Grinder will conceptually be my favorite deck forever, even if it's underpowered past Overkill difficulty. Blood in, blood out and all that.
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Apr 17, 2017 02:09
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Maybe I'm totally alone here but I've found that Kingpin has kept me on my feet way more consistently than Anarchist. And Rogue dodge seems almost totally unfeasible on anything above Overkill. ...but then I've also found that basically anything goes on Overkill. I could literally make any build or no build, just toss a bunch of random trash skills together in a blender and survive Overkill totally solo. My whole team can be on opposite corners of the map on Overkill and be totally fine just dicking around and clicking cops.
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Apr 17, 2017 03:35
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King Vidiot posted:Maybe I'm totally alone here but I've found that Kingpin has kept me on my feet way more consistently than Anarchist. And Rogue dodge seems almost totally unfeasible on anything above Overkill. That's the fun part of the game, you can make gonzo-rear end silly guns with stupid gimmick builds and still complete the heist. Past that you have to treat it like a challenge to be overcome and you have to start thinking about your actions, which is also fun but it's fun because it's rewarding and not because you can gently caress around and laugh at flying cops because three of you brought rocket launchers.
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Apr 17, 2017 04:24
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clockworkjoe posted:Alternately - anarchist perk deck - die hard aced, heavy ballistic vest - shotgun skills (close by aced is important), overkill basic - steakout with 000, berserker aced, frenzy aced, bullseye aced, - other skills to suit tastes = murder everything with auto shotgun forever and regen armor by killing cops. AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 04:27
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:The only critique I have it this would be that the LBV is arguably better - it regens a tick of armor faster so with the two seconds of invulnerability you get when your armor breaks you are better off. Plus you move faster. I'll give that a shot at some point. Also, I don't think resilience aced is mandatory. Flashbangs are way more reasonable than they used to be - less frequent and it's possible to destroy them before they trigger. You also have enough time to move to another room usually. My Spree dodge build right now is rogue deck (armor is useless because of shotgun and sniper damage scaling) basically every controller skill, inspire, and jack of all trades plus extra ammo. Use a flamethrower and dragons breath street sweeper. HE rounds are useless once cops are immune to being staggered. No sneak bastard or cits because flamethrower is too hard to conceal but regen from jokers helps with every non shotgun or sniper attack. Only weakness is bulldozers are impossible to kill. Also the extra deployable gage perk seems to be the best by far. With jack of all trades, I can have 3 doc bags and 2 ammo bags. Thanks to goonmod, I don't give a poo poo about coins anyway.
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Apr 17, 2017 05:03
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So wait, which armor vest is the best all around choice for anarchist? I wasn't even thinking and just naturally assumed it would be the heaviest choice.
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Apr 17, 2017 05:21
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^^ Anarchist adds a flat number, no matter what the underlying vest is - it's +138 armor, period. So the difference between LBV and HBV is 20 points, since they're normally 50 and 70. When you add on all the things you can, the totals look like this: Suit - 205 LBV - 270 BV - 283 HBV - 296 Flak - 296 CTV - 322 ICTV - 400 Non-Anarchist ICTV is 221, for reference. AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:The only critique I have it this would be that the LBV is arguably better - it regens a tick of armor faster so with the two seconds of invulnerability you get when your armor breaks you are better off. Plus you move faster. Yeah, I second that. Anarchist+ICTV is obviously solid, but Anarchist+LBV is great. More armor than vanilla ICTV, 45% more speed, 30% more stamina and you could even slap a little dodge on top. Falls apart on OD (at least, I haven't found a setup that works), but it's great for high-speed durable copmurder. Tempest_56 fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 05:30
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with the damage and accuracy spit out by the rank and file zeal on OD, the only defensive setup that works is to not get hit (dodge) but even that has some serious issues with it. even 405 armor is gone in an eyeblink once one of those dorks gets an angle on you.
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Apr 17, 2017 06:21
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Tempest_56 posted:^^ Anarchist adds a flat number, no matter what the underlying vest is - it's +138 armor, period. So the difference between LBV and HBV is 20 points, since they're normally 50 and 70. When you add on all the things you can, the totals look like this: The extra dodge is awesome. I have a build that uses Anarchist, suit, and sneaky bastard basic. Strong armor and some dodge. Seems like most OD builds revolve around dodge, jokers, and body expertise SMGs or fire. I'm not a fan of it.
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Apr 17, 2017 06:42
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Bullseye helps make a difference in OD and high level spree if you keep regening some armor to absorb a single high damage attack. Having armor break 5 times in 10 seconds is fun!
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Apr 17, 2017 08:26
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Mediocrity Goggles posted:I do hope the inevitable Payday 3 has a much more standardized system in how everything is supposed to work. As it stands, PD2 is a mashed together duct-taped abomination with so many experimental mini-mechanics and DLCs that operate on their own inconsistent rules for unlocking content from one pack to the next. Payday 3 is supposedly already in development. Basic wishlist: let's have difficulty that is more than just about increasing the health and number of enemies plus disadvantaging the player, for a start; also, let's agree on no more gating weapon mods behind stupid achievements (thankfully halted in the later DLCs) and eliminating the usage of RNG to artificially increase difficulty (eg the incredible difference between the boat and van escape on Train Heist). None too fond of the stupid treasure hunt for the Arbiter either. Developers have to recognize that when people buy a game/DLC, they should immediately get all the gameplay items they paid for in the game/DLC. Limit silly treasure-hunting or any other sort of gating to only cosmetic items, please. TopHatGenius posted:The extra dodge is awesome. I have a build that uses Anarchist, suit, and sneaky bastard basic. Strong armor and some dodge. OD is stupid because it forces a tiny number of builds on you. I've done it without dominated cops but it's definitely much easier with. Heavy armour is worthless because not only are you slow, one shot from a normal enemy literally takes out the entire armour value of a fully upgraded ICTV. 2 more shots after that and you're downed. Hence dodge to avoid shots at least some of the time and using dominated cops to absorb enemy fire is the best way to survive. And somehow, to some people on the Steam forums, this is 'cheesing the game'. I would say fix OD, but Overkill's track record of balancing difficulties is, shall we say, less than ideal so I'd rather they don't gently caress the game up further. Wastrel_ fucked around with this message at 10:01 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 09:56
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The Short Guide has been updated to account for the changes to Body Expertise, as well as to include armor regen (Sociopath, Biker) decks other than Anarchist and health regen decks like Ex-Pres and Grinder. A new build I'm in love with: Good Guy Grinder Greg. GGGG brings aced Inspire, 14 damage-reduction-granting upcakes, a doctor bag, all the speed-improving drill skills, and is capable of scavving for ammo easily.
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Apr 17, 2017 11:37
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Anarchist LBV and Armorer ICTV work just fine on One Down. Suit dodge is not the only way to play.
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Apr 17, 2017 12:24
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I'd like to see difficulty increases be set largely around the number of entry points cops use, the number of intermediary "get the drill bag" objectives, and the number of "wait for this timed task" objectives rather than turning cops into a horde of bullet sponges.
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Apr 17, 2017 12:46
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clockworkjoe posted:Bullseye helps make a difference in OD and high level spree if you keep regening some armor to absorb a single high damage attack. Having armor break 5 times in 10 seconds is fun! Bullseye aced is basically a must-have for an Anarchist build. If you're running it without, start over. Re: difficulty, there are so many ways they could have gone about it but Overkill naturally chose the path of least resistance by cranking up all the numbers and their excuse for not dialing any of it back is that they don't want to make drastic changes too quickly.  They could have gone the KF2 route and added more abilities to cops, or just gone further with their one down idea and remove more tools from the player tool set.I hope they get optimization done first before they stop sitting on their rear end so all y'all can get the full effect of what they actually shoved out with their One Down update.
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Apr 17, 2017 12:57
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FAUXTON posted:I'd like to see difficulty increases be set largely around the number of entry points cops use, the number of intermediary "get the drill bag" objectives, and the number of "wait for this timed task" objectives rather than turning cops into a horde of bullet sponges. Sir, have you heard the good news about Death Vox?
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Apr 17, 2017 13:05
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Discendo Vox posted:Sir, have you heard the good news about Death Vox? They hired you too?
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Apr 17, 2017 13:06
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FAUXTON posted:They hired you too? I wish. FDA and the Academies are supposed to be in touch this week. If not, I'll mail Almir my totally-suited-for-game-design resume.
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Apr 17, 2017 13:08
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Overkill hosed up so badly with the Housewarming update that Deathvox looks appealing.
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Apr 17, 2017 13:25
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UnknownMercenary posted:Overkill hosed up so badly with the Housewarming update that Deathvox looks appealing. Deathvox actually involves work which is why it's not going to be done. "Just upping the HP values and increasing a few numbers is easier and totally increases the difficulty guys." 
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Apr 17, 2017 14:25
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UnknownMercenary posted:Anarchist LBV and Armorer ICTV work just fine on One Down. Suit dodge is not the only way to play. Anarchist LBV is just about doable; I've managed Lab Rats on it, for instance. Armourer ICTV is only suitable on cramped maps, and even then doesn't work so well - especially if everyone else is dodge or more lightly armoured and you get shot up the most as a result. The fact is that dodge is still the most viable way to play on OD by virtue of it being suited to all map types. On DW and below, plenty of flexibility in builds, yes. UnknownMercenary posted:
Difficulty really shouldn't be about nerfing players' abilities more. It should ideally be about smarter and more functional AI. Wastrel_ fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 15:54
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The only maps I've really felt restricted w.r.t my armor choice were Hoxton Breakout day 1 (holy poo poo is that map hot garbage on One Down), Lab Rats and Biker Heist day 2 (moreso because that's just a speedrun in general). I've run Armorer ICTV on just about everything else without too much issue; it's mainly about playing your corners better. Anarchist LBV gives you mobility but I vastly prefer getting the armor back all at once instead of waiting for ticks. I don't think on average you live that much longer in a suit build versus some form of armor with all other things being equal, just because of how much poo poo One Down throws your way anyway. As far as "removing things from the tool set" goes I wouldn't be opposed to things more along the lines of only having one down; stuff like shortened bleedout timers or removing functionality of some skills. Hell, they could restrict skill points further and could have just kept health and damage same as Deathwish and below. I'm pretty sure Overkill realized they overstepped with power creep by giving us update 100 with 120 skill points instead of the planned 100. But I agree I'd rather see the cop AI actually improved, first of all, so that it's not tied so heavily to framerate and CPU speed, and then take the KF2 route instead. I've suggested it before, but just stuff like giving special units extra abilities would've been more interesting than cranking enemy health up 9 times.
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Apr 17, 2017 16:12
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The cop AI/CPU problem can't be fixed; it's baked into the engine's inability to do parallel threading, or something along these lines. As far as police behaviors go, I think more than actual intelligence we just need behaviors that do a better job of giving the impression of intelligence. This can include fairly basic changes to behaviors and spawngroups, or even just some scripted stuff. A lot of the plans I had for Death Vox are getting listed as possible crime spree modifiers, so maybe there's hope yet. There's a general problem with the design of payday 2 skills that has roots in the first version of the game. Special units were originally designed to incentivize and require cooperation, but Goldfarb's original skill structure included a set of high-tier "shortcuts" that bypass the design of the special units (the shield and taser specifically). Other items and skills similarly function as shortcuts for in-heist objectives. Both of these have long established expectations regarding the approach to heists and gameplay generally that create a sense of entitlement to those shortcuts, and a sense of unfairness when those shortcuts are taken away. Titan safes are a big example of this; what do you mean, my C4/lockpick is useless? These skills stand in contrast to others in the player's toolset, which enhance options, more than provide shortcuts, to game obstacles. Higher difficulties in a game set up like payday 2 are by necessity going to restrict the scope of approaches, but the utility of the shortcut skills makes them both an appealing target for a designer looking to make the heist harder, and a frustrating thing to remove for players that are used to relying on them. Their relative lack of downsides is a big factor in this. Shortcut skills with a significant downside (like lockpicking safes, which lock the player and take a while) versus their benefits (bypassing a longer/harder drill process) are more viable targets for exclusion on higher difficulties- but still can have a restrictive effect. Ideally, difficulties can shift the scope of player behaviors, and even encourage new or emergent strategies, without being overly restrictive. I think having increased enemy health, accuracy and damage on OD is fair, just...not to the extent that it currently is. Other changes ought to be made with an eye toward how they drive player learning and behavior. The scope of these changes wouldn't necessarily be much harder to implement. An example of one good change could be having Tasers cause much more dramatic swinging effects on players' screens, and/or having the player get downed by the tasing faster. This changes player responses to tasers, reevaluates them as a threat compared to other units, incentivizes teamwork, and still encourages the shockproof skill, without making it feel mandatory. Contrast this with current OD, where tasers are much more dangerous using their gun (which has the same stats as a heavy SWAT), rather than their taser. A more mixed example of a possible change would be to make shields immune to some of the penetrative weapon effects- explosions, sniper rounds, or fire...each of these makes the originally planned obstacle of the shield more meaningful, but it has the negative effect of removing player tools that the player feels entitled to- and also screwing up weapon balance. Maintaining weapon balance isn't super important for an endgame difficulty, but so many players use these skills that I suspect players would get really upset if their good weapons suddenly became "nonviable". Of the different effects, fire would make the most sense to nullify on endgame shields, since it has advantages in other situations. Ideally, shields could have some other buff, but most of the appealing ones run into the underlying AI complexity issues that the game already struggles with. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 17:03
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So realistically they should just have improved specials like Winters that would at least require the player to adapt and change without trying to actually make the AI think. Randomized super special visitation to make it feel like you suddenly have a scrake coming at you instead of just making Shields resistant to fire or sniper penetration.
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Apr 17, 2017 17:43
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It's partly an optimization problem too. Since the LOD update from a year ago the game has steadily begun to run worse and worse; the Housewarming update effectively doubling the amount of cops that can spawn at a time exacerbates the issue. My group ran through everything again during Spring Break for someone who came back to get them their One Down mask, and tough nuts like Aftershock and Goat Simulator were noticeably easier when we had the returning player host. Part of it could be chalked up to the wonky power creep we've experienced since October (Dragons breath rounds and super beefed up DMR pickup) and having run the maps so many times to have it down to an exact science, but also the fact that our host was pulling at most 50 frames a second so cops could just be frozen in place in spots. It's not like his PC is a slouch to begin with but for whatever reason Payday 2 runs like poo poo. Brooklyn 10-10 is the worst example I can think of; a tiny loving kill box where 80-100 cops just drop on top of your head. I would like to see them shorten the gaps of health between difficulties as well; raise the HP on lower difficulties if need be but absolutely the higher difficulties need looking at. It's pretty bizarre that anything Mayhem and above disincentivizes headshots by giving them a lower multiplier, and Crime Spree cops at high ranks are still way less annoying than regular One Down cops. They might have comparable body health, but it's way more manageable because of the consistently high headshot multiplier due to Overkill difficulty being its base.
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Apr 17, 2017 18:02
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It feels rear end-backwards that the lower difficulties are the ones rewarding and incentivizing good shots. What the gently caress is OD supposed to be if not bringing the best performance you can to a heist? What in the gently caress is difficulty to OVERKILL? Scratch that, I know they'll likely have a terrible answer waiting for me. What they need to change to is that Challenge (players fighting against enemies that bring the same skills and talents against them to an equal footing) is better and more fun than Difficulty (something that just upscale health because its piss easy to make a game harder to accomplish with the tools they currently have).
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Apr 17, 2017 18:36
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shamma lamma ding dong e: i just thought looking at a smiling puppy would help focus discussion since it's all so negative right now Coolguye fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 18:39
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Coolguye posted:shamma lamma ding dong That's not working for me. I need cute parrots instead.
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Apr 17, 2017 19:12
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I've been running Anarchist with the HBV instead (thanks chairface) and liking it quite a lot. A bit of extra armor to help cut down on the freak splats I seem to get more often now on LBV, and I actually prefer the slightly slower speed if only because it means I don't go careening out of control as much when somebody else's Second Wind kicks in.
John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 19:14
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i just heard "i need a cuter picture"
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Apr 17, 2017 19:15
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Coolguye posted:i just heard "i need a cuter picture" 
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Apr 17, 2017 19:58
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Smug dogs are adorable. I want specials that are designed to address player strategies, a la Left 4 Dead 2. the devs made 2 specials designed to mess with the players clustering and doing the Shiva dogpile maneuver, and it was fantastic. So something with splash damage to make dodge builds nervous (spitters), something that could pull groups apart (chargers), and something mobile and tanky enough to make prairie dogging not a viable way to deal with them. the other part was when the L4D2 devs made each of these hazards either easily dodged (spitter) or telegraphed enough with a penalty on the unit (charger) to make things even if you're paying attention. I will never not love the game design of the chargers, which can make an entire team abandon what they were doing and sprint across the map to deal with the problem. So maybe a taser with AOE or traps, or a ninja cloaker who tries to drag you off the map or something. Something to make the entire team stop and deal with the issue. Winters is a good idea, but between de-sync and carried explosives/fire, he's a non issue unless his spawn is weird.
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Apr 17, 2017 20:28
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I think medics are a pretty good wrinkle as far as new enemies go. They're much better than Winters and SWAT turrets, which are both either really lovely or really trivial depending on when/where they spawn and team composition. People have suggested forever some sort of grenade unit; the teargas that spawns on H&T is pretty good at cutting off certain areas for turtling and if they seriously could expand that anywhere on a map and tie it to a special that'd be good. Special units, as they are set up now, spawn way so often that they don't really feel special at all. In fact, a problem with the current iteration of the bulldozer is that it spawns so loving often and always in pairs and it's just this giant wall of HP that needs to be burned down compared to everything else, and then when they're gone another pair immediately shows up. Part of the re-tuning I'd like to see is just less special units because there's nothing like rounding a corner and seeing literally 8 shields at once.
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Apr 17, 2017 20:42
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Or four tasers standing on top of each other.
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Apr 17, 2017 20:47
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John Murdoch posted:Or four tasers standing on top of each other. 
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Apr 17, 2017 21:01
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