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Did someone say STATISTICAL CALCULATIONS?!  The simplest rule of thumb, as most of you know, is that three dice will average out to one success. Ten dice rounds out to 3.33 repeating successes, which is pretty easily illustrated by imagining that blind luck rolls all ten dice into 1, 2, [...] 10 in order. That leaves you with three successes, and the ten adds a phantom 1/3 of a success, its RNG waveform collapsing when you actually reroll it. 9-again simply makes that 9 add a phantom third of a success as well, instead creating 2/3rds of a success, which itself contributes about a fifth of...oh dear. Let's actually cut back to the abstract math here for a second. Stealing from an old version of the White Wolf wiki, someone did the simulations and number crunching enough to get the actual math formula written for me: Average Successes = [Number of dice rolled]*3 / ([Target number for reroll] - 1) So, a six die default pool is 6*3 / 10-1 , or 18/9, an average of two successes. By changing that to 9-again or 8-again, you instead get 18/8 or 18/7, or 2.25 and ~2.57 successes respectively. Bump the pool up to 15 and you get a spread of expected successes at 5, 5.62, and 6.42. You'll (probably not) notice that, using envelope math, 8-again effectively adds an additional ~0.1 success per die in play. It's small, but it adds up remarkably quickly, as you only need a pool of about five dice to really notice the bump on a conscious level, and a pool of ten or more will regularly get at least one more success than it should. This makes sense - after all, if the spread was 1-10, the 8, 9, and 10 all reroll into a new three die pool, which gets you an average of one success, which means you get four total. 9-again doesnt play quite so cleanly with the dice math, and it took a while before developers really noticed it punched far below the weight class they billed it as. It adds roughly only ~0.04 successes to every die in the pool. Some early rules, like Promethean 1e, roughly wagered 9-again as worthy of spending a willpower point on, or more. Compare this to instead buying three dice to add an average of a success and the magnitude of how bad a deal that is becomes apparent - in order to add an average bonus success, 9-again requires you to have a pool of 25 dice. 27, really, since you could still buy the extra dice and make it even. Compare this all to the rote action. Going back to the formula, instead of screwing with the denominator, it screws with the numerator, turning the formula into [dice pool]*5.1. This immediately blows 8-again and 9-again out of the water as the most impactful single change. After all, you take your failed dice - on average, 66% of your pool - and reroll it, adding the new successes to the former total. This makes about half your dice average successes rather than a third. You can't not notice that, unlike the N-agains. The N-agains do have one statistical area they outperform rote, though - they're a win-more mechanic. Where rote bails you out if you totally bungle a roll, the N-agains turn a really good roll into a really good roll by dragging them out, especially at the low end of the dice pool. However, most of the time, rote will outperform by sheer weight of rerolls you're being handed. This all goes without mentioning that rote and N-again in combination pairs together like some sort of math-based Voltron and sends your expected success value into the stratosphere, but I digress. TL;DR FOR PEOPLE WITH MATH ALLERGIES: When given the choice between picking N-again or rote on a dice pool using the same amount of resources, pick rote every single time if you care about not failing, and 8-again if you want to shoot for the stars using a low-to-average dice pool. 9-again is nice to have, but you should almost never go out of your way to get it at the expense of better options. Neither N-Again is equivalent to a point of willpower's added dice until your dice pool gets big/huge, at which point they outperform it. 
Daeren fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 04:53
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One of the options Hunters can take for risking willpower is bumping up the N-again rating of a roll by one increment. Normally this would be a trap option, but it can be extremely powerful if used alongside the Professional Training merit, which at 2 dots bumps skill checks relevant to the training to 9-again quality. If you happen to be a soldier or cop or gangbanger, someone with professional training in combat, this means you can bump up one attack per scene to 8-again, and you'll likely have a pretty strong pool of dice to work with.
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Apr 17, 2017 06:31
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So this past oWoD Wraith/Vampire/Mummy session, my three-session old Mummy PC was getting out of his car when a two-year old Tremere PC (who he had never met before) dropped Obfuscate right in front of him and proceeded to Cauldron of Blood him to death in three rounds, steal his body, ward it against being found, and ran off with it, because she saw his aura, realized he was a Mummy, and figured the local Tremere chantry would love to get their hands on a Mummy's corpse. My PC is about to be judged (and will probably fail miserably) and then, according to the Storyteller, will simply be around as his Ka/Wraith until I can arrange to discover my body and get it back. Oh, and as a cherry on top I will now have the “Known to Be Dead” flaw as my corpse was entered into the local morgue before being spirited away. My assets are a Wraith from the Usurers’ guild and a Giovanni vampire. While the play was brilliant (I got jumped and absolutely decimated as what would happen if a low-point Mummy went up against a high-level Tremere, I’m not mad at the player because she took advantage and I’m not mad at the ST because everything happened by the book, I just had nothing that could counter what she did), I have three weeks until the next session and have absolutely no idea what to do other than to someone get in touch with the Osirian League and be like “Yeah, I’m the new Mummy in town and a vampire just ran off with my body.”
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Apr 17, 2017 18:36
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Nystral posted:In the 90s on IRC there were rumors of a house with a regular multi-day 24/7 game running based out of Chicago. But lol it was the 90s and on IRC and on a "free form" vampire channel. So yeah... Nerdiest punkrock house in the world.
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Apr 17, 2017 20:09
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Why is a fresh mummy playing against/with a high level tremere?
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Apr 17, 2017 21:51
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CobiWann posted:So this past oWoD Wraith/Vampire/Mummy session, my three-session old Mummy PC was getting out of his car when a two-year old Tremere PC (who he had never met before) dropped Obfuscate right in front of him and proceeded to Cauldron of Blood him to death in three rounds, steal his body, ward it against being found, and ran off with it, because she saw his aura, realized he was a Mummy, and figured the local Tremere chantry would love to get their hands on a Mummy's corpse. If this is tabletop, the other player and the ST are both douchebag fucknozzles. If this is LARP, then they are douchebag fucknozzles and you should have known better than to LARP.
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Apr 17, 2017 22:18
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Yeah, what is even happening in that game that any of those events happened?
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Apr 17, 2017 23:19
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I wouldn't say I would never permit a situation like that to happen in a game, but I would definitely expect the vampire's player to be forthcoming with ideas about how the mummy is going to get his groove back.
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Apr 17, 2017 23:28
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Also, Usury? You're playing a crossover game focusing on pvp and the Wraith player picked Usury? Comedy option: hire a Spook to set the Tremere on fire with his mind, from across the Shroud.
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Apr 17, 2017 23:42
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Pope Guilty posted:Also, Usury? You're playing a crossover game focusing on pvp and the Wraith player picked Usury?
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Apr 17, 2017 23:47
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Nessus posted:The Usurer's guild would be like the Wraith Federal Reserve. Nothing says he doesn't know a guy with Outrage. Yeah, that's a good point.
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Apr 17, 2017 23:51
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I saw this and figured you could probably use it for something. No idea what, but something.  Link to the artists DA e: fixed broken link, thanks unzealous fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 00:52
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unzealous posted:I saw this and figured you could probably use it for something. No idea what, but something. Really awesome picture but your link is broken! Just need to take out the "=" at the end.
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Apr 18, 2017 01:01
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unzealous posted:I saw this and figured you could probably use it for something. No idea what, but something. I like how it gets weirder and weirder the more you look at it.
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Apr 18, 2017 01:42
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unzealous posted:I saw this and figured you could probably use it for something. No idea what, but something. tag yourself I'm the flawless manicure surveiling this bullshit over a hot cup of Death
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Apr 18, 2017 02:03
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unzealous posted:I saw this and figured you could probably use it for something. No idea what, but something. Thanks for the phone background!
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Apr 18, 2017 02:30
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Reene posted:tag yourself I'm the flawless manicure surveiling this bullshit over a hot cup of Death I'm the perfectly sane man trying to pretend his pie isn't bleeding and he isn't eating next to Cthulhu. EDIT: Now ask me about fringe conspiracy theories, said the perfectly normal man over perfectly normal pie!
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Apr 18, 2017 06:43
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I'm the smear on the bathroom door.
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Apr 18, 2017 06:51
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Reene posted:tag yourself I am the ant-shaped pattern on the yellow table top and also (though to a lesser extent) the blind gilled person reading a newspaper at meal consisting of an eyeball and a couple fingers.
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Apr 18, 2017 07:19
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Foglet posted:I am the ant-shaped pattern on the yellow table top and also (though to a lesser extent) the blind gilled person reading a newspaper at meal consisting of an eyeball and a couple fingers. 
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Apr 18, 2017 10:40
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Daeren posted:Did someone say STATISTICAL CALCULATIONS?! Bless you sweet Daeren. I have seen the light. Professional Training in 2E is disgustingly good, by the way. It may only be three Skills, and it's usually houseruled to not allow said skills to be used for supernatural power rolls, but Rote Action for any mundane Skill roll in one of those three is nothing short of amazing. It's better than most supernatural powers at five Merit dots alone. That's not to mention how it multiplies XP spent on it. If you take 9-again in a Skill as worth Hobbyist Clique for two Experiences each, you have at least this: 1st dot: two dots of Contacts (two Experiences) 2nd dot: two Skills get 9-again (four Experiences) 3rd dot: another skill gets 9-again and you get two free Specialties (four Experiences) 4th dot: a free Skill dot, and a free beat for every dot you purchase in these Skills (two Experiences and a maximum of twelve beats, so 6.2 Experiences) 5th dot: Rote quality for a WP spend (??? loving awesome) edit: Sixteen. Sixteen Experiences max. Probably more like fifteen total, just. drat. plaintiff fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 16:13
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I've posted about this before, but my group's always used a variant of rote action that works like this: pick up all your failed dice and roll them as a separate pool. Then choose between the result of your original roll and of your rote roll. By now, nWoD's writers understand how bonkers the original "rote action" rules are and so tend to price rote action bonuses appropriately, but I've always liked our way of doing it since it actually does what rote actions were originally supposed to: insure powerfully against failure without dramatically increasing the margin of success.
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Apr 18, 2017 16:20
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Ferrinus posted:I've posted about this before, but my group's always used a variant of rote action that works like this: pick up all your failed dice and roll them as a separate pool. Then choose between the result of your original roll and of your rote roll. That's a really cool idea, but the players in my mage group are already to the point where they're easily hitting 3-5 successes on spell casting on a regular basis. Having rotes tends to push them to the 5+ area anyway. The only time they're still failing from time to time is during combat and time restrictive situations, so I'm still okay with the balance. So while they may succeed at just about everything mundanely and often for spell casting, they're still at least failing and dealing with making mistakes in social/political situations. So long as I can keep the goal posts moving, and the twists coming, I sort of just expect them to mostly succeed when they roll dice. I put them at sort of a competent Apprentice level in terms of mage society though, so a combination of that and the big mystery that's coming will keep them occupied when they're not taking a side quest to be Action Movie Heroes.
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Apr 18, 2017 18:07
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MC Smoke Sensei posted:Bless you sweet Daeren. I have seen the light.
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Apr 18, 2017 18:14
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Jhet posted:That's a really cool idea, but the players in my mage group are already to the point where they're easily hitting 3-5 successes on spell casting on a regular basis. Having rotes tends to push them to the 5+ area anyway. The only time they're still failing from time to time is during combat and time restrictive situations, so I'm still okay with the balance. Do you mean rotes as in rote spells or rotes as in spells cast as rote actions? Because those are two different things. Because of course they are.
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Apr 18, 2017 18:16
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Do people here as a general rule try to incorporate that quieter, less propulsive aspect of the system into their games? I think the dual axis between soft / loud and smooth / rough playstyles from the Demon player's guide can be broadly applied to tabletop gaming in gestalt. And for the most part, I've only played tabletop that has valued being quick and to the point. Like, I don't really consider it a failure that my Demon game expends roughly 0 minutes of session time to the rote business of cover maintenance. We exist in a heightened version of the game where we can and do spend all of our "onscreen" time chasing the core plot, with no demands on our time from jobs or NPC relationships, beyond that which our players willingly pursue (we are essentially Demon adventurers). I think there can be a mechanical benefit to doing otherwise - there's a lot of tension to be mined from giving your adversaries the full 24 hours to pursue their plans while you have to devote at least 8 hours of every weekday to spinning plates that get progressively harder to manage as you get sucked in to the real work. And then, of course, your friends and loved ones come calling at inopportune times on the nights and weekends.
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Apr 18, 2017 18:24
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^^ I sprinkle it in, usually if they fail at something mundane, or there needs to be a distraction at an inopportune moment. I try to not overshadow the mage part of it with sleeper attachments too much during onscreen time and let that part mostly happen offscreen between sessions. No one's coming to sit at the table to have a conversation with a coworker on the bus, they want to play with magic.Mors Rattus posted:Do you mean rotes as in rote spells or rotes as in spells cast as rote actions? They made it worse in 2e. Casting from a Grimoire or from a Rote you create yourself gives it the rote quality. So I mean Rote spells, which they also often get to use the rote quality to cast. (They tend to max out their Yantras and make the casting One of these days I may just stop caring about the distinction all together and just say that if it says rote in anyway you can just reroll your failures. We don't stack the X-agains and rote quality for dice rolls, though the way my players roll it probably wouldn't matter. Jhet fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 18:24
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The Unlife Aquatic posted:I'm the smear on the bathroom door. I'm the nightmares I'm having after looking into the darkness for too long.
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Apr 18, 2017 18:26
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If your players are powerful enough mages to be inventing their own rote spells, you're already in the realm of 'dice are rapidly losing any real meaning,' that requires pretty high Gnosis and Arcana.
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Apr 18, 2017 18:26
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Mors Rattus posted:If your players are powerful enough mages to be inventing their own rote spells, you're already in the realm of 'dice are rapidly losing any real meaning,' that requires pretty high Gnosis and Arcana. So far it's found/bargained Grimoires mostly. They're not too far from creating their own rotes, and they've been doing a good job of making sure they normally have the dice they need in most every situation, or finding a creative solution instead where they're playing to their strengths. It's helpful that none of them are new to gaming, they're just new to the system and are picking up the tricks pretty quickly.
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Apr 18, 2017 18:32
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Basic Chunnel posted:Do people here as a general rule try to incorporate that quieter, less propulsive aspect of the system into their games? I think the dual axis between soft / loud and smooth / rough playstyles from the Demon player's guide can be broadly applied to tabletop gaming in gestalt. And for the most part, I've only played tabletop that has valued being quick and to the point. My gut says that if people are going to drop anything from their game it is going to be the slow parts. Action hero is just more fun and time management games are tough in something that is just so abstract as a tabletop game. But it does make a great tool for tension. Having the conflict of going and saving the world vs. Showing up for your shift and protecting your cover can make for some great scenes.
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Apr 18, 2017 18:37
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Basic Chunnel posted:Do people here as a general rule try to incorporate that quieter, less propulsive aspect of the system into their games? Requiem 2nd ST. For new players I definitely do this, as it lets me dribble in the exploration of Vampire basics (hunting, the beast, degeneration, initial use of disciplines) and telling it through the lens of neonate-life lets me limit the consequences quite a bit so the explorations are more personal. For more veteran players, I look to their anchors to let me know where they want to explore these quieter sides of things. Mask/Dirge gives me the themes they want to explore on both sides of the Masquerade. I have them assign a descriptor to their Touchstone (Big Sister, The Mark, Angry Father, The Orphan, The Addict) and I use that to color the soft interactions that character has around their humanity. And then Aspirations are where they tell me exactly what kind of soft-play they are interested in (I want my first ghoul, I want to deal with criminal stuff.) Now - that doesn't mean I'm gonna spend an hour roleplaying out a conversation with a bus boy or whatever. And I will often link these softer-scenes into the greater picture (Drug Dealer touchstone might remark on certain products getting more expensive and dangerous to acquire, which is a hint at two Ancillae struggling to control the drug trade, for example.) But considering Touchstones scenes are mechanically rewarded with Willpower refresh and Condition Resolution bennies, I don't want to ever shut that door.
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Apr 18, 2017 19:20
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I generally find that it's much easier to focus on the smaller details that make up the game in solo games. In group games, there just... Isn't time for me, as an ST, to focus on the intricate sensation of casting a spell, or the personal life of one character. I'm dealing with 3-4 players, usually, in an IRC game; there just isn't time to focus on one of them because it means the others are sitting on their thumbs. I include those details when and if I can, but, generally, they get left by the wayside in favour of action. In solo games, though, they probably make up half the game. These are character dramas, after all, and most of your life doesn't happen when you're on the grand adventure; it's your connection to people the rest of the time.
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Apr 18, 2017 19:40
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Next Time on You're Always Hunting in Chicago As an aside, I know there is bad things involved with leaving Conspiracies, what would be the bad thing with leaving VASCU and joining a different group?
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Apr 19, 2017 03:57
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Where'd the new thread title come from?
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Apr 19, 2017 04:21
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Kavak posted:Where'd the new thread title come from? Martin ericsson is Swedish, if I had to guess?
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Apr 19, 2017 06:09
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I'm deeply ashamed that I know the phrase "sad girls in snow" is a Megatokyo thing, but I don't know why this thread is called that.
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Apr 19, 2017 10:02
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I finally dropped the April 1 Paranoia theme and I couldn't think of a topical title 
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Apr 19, 2017 12:18
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Ettin posted:I finally dropped the April 1 Paranoia theme and I couldn't think of a topical title World of Darkness: Sadsacks, Abusers, Predators Unite? Games> Traditional Games > World of Darkness: So a Vampire Wizard walks up to a Mummy...
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Apr 19, 2017 12:49
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World of Darkness: The Shitpost-Machine Chronicle
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