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JeffersonClay posted:The more blame that is placed on the Clinton campaign for the loss, the less need the democrats will feel to make fundamental changes in policy. Why are you so bad at politics?
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Apr 18, 2017 02:37
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Call Me Charlie posted:Counterpoint: The more blame that is placed on Clinton and her campaign for the loss, the more we can make third way clintonism absolutely toxic to touch in the future. (of course that will do little to stop Hillary from running again in 2020 but it could prevent her from winning the primary as people realize she's a born loser when it comes to presidential races) Third way Clintonism, whatever that might mean, does not proscribe how campaigns should be run. criticizing the campaign for not listening to Bill Clinton or not running a winning campaign like he did gives third way clintonists cover. It allows them to blame Hillary and Robby Mook rather than the ideas and policies at the heart of her candidacy. If you think that the Putin's Puppet focus is a convenient excuse for democrats to deny the need for authentic leftist policy, I can't understand how you could see focusing on the competence of the campaign any differently. It doesn't matter if Robby Mook hosed up the campaign or if Putin hacked it, either option implies the ideas themselves were not at fault.
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Apr 18, 2017 02:40
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JeffersonClay posted:Third way Clintonism, whatever that might mean, does not proscribe how campaigns should be run. criticizing the campaign for not listening to Bill Clinton or not running a winning campaign like he did gives third way clintonists cover. It allows them to blame Hillary and Robby Mook rather than the ideas and policies at the heart of her candidacy. If you think that the Putin's Puppet focus is a convenient excuse for democrats to deny the need for authentic leftist policy, I can't understand how you could see focusing on the competence of the campaign any differently. It doesn't matter if Robby Mook hosed up the campaign or if Putin hacked it, either option implies the ideas themselves were not at fault. I mean, it kind of highlights how incredibly out-of-touch she was, which is at the center of third-way Clintonism.
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Apr 18, 2017 02:43
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Majorian posted:I mean, it kind of highlights how incredibly out-of-touch she was, which is at the center of third-way Clintonism. the champion of technocratic incrementalism that alienates broad swathes of the country losing because her campaign staff were basically high priests of a computer-slash-oracle that wrote off broad swathes of the country is pretty funny tbh
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Apr 18, 2017 02:46
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axeil posted:you can get people in my cohort to support lefty stuff like a $15 minimum (which I support) if the left drops the "and we will drink the blood of the bourgeois" crap.  Yeah I remember when Bernie Sanders gutted a HENRY on the debate stage and drank from his gushing arteries. This post is pretty much proof that "your cohort", whoever that is, will never ever support lefty stuff because even a milquetoast social democrat with zero ambitions to move away from capitalism is portrayed as a mutant flesh-devouring Robespierre coming to steal your babies and lock you in gulags.
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Apr 18, 2017 02:50
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Majorian posted:I mean, it kind of highlights how incredibly out-of-touch she was, which is at the center of third-way Clintonism. Was Bill Clinton notoriously out of touch? It sounds like you're defining "Third way clintonism" to just mean anything you don't like about Clinton and then asserting that those features are somehow an inseparable part of the philosophy. Obviously no third way people are advocating running campaigns that are out of touch. Instead, focusing on how out of touch Hillary was just makes it easier for them to blame her and not the policies she advocated. They'll say she failed not because she was too much like bill (in terms of policy) but not enough like him (in terms of political competence).
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Apr 18, 2017 02:54
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JeffersonClay posted:Was Bill Clinton notoriously out of touch? He certainly signed on to some tremendously out-of-touch policies. If he was ever in touch, he certainly was out of it long before he signed welfare reform. quote:They'll say she failed not because she was too much like bill (in terms of policy) but not enough like him (in terms of political competence). No, they won't. They'll say both are true, because both are true.
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Apr 18, 2017 02:56
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JeffersonClay posted:The more blame that is placed on the Clinton campaign for the loss, the less need the democrats will feel to make fundamental changes in policy. What in the gently caress? Are you seriously trying to say that "Third way Clintonism" (e.g. neoliberalism) resonates among the electorate more than progressivism; and that they shouldn't pursue the policies of the most popular politician in the country right now? (Bernie) I'm genuinely shocked at the lengths you go to in order to absolve Hillary, her policies, and even anyone around her of any wrongdoing.
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Apr 18, 2017 03:27
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"As we dive into the Clinton apparatus in Brooklyn, we discover a somewhat different picture of Mook, who was largely portrayed as an affable, modern-age data whiz during the campaign. In “Shattered,” he is depicted as a “professional political assassin” who pushes aside anyone who threatens his control-freak grip on power. He fights with Podesta. There’s tension with chief strategist Joel Benenson (who appears to have been almost completely sidelined months before Election Day). Mook has little regard for communications director Jennifer Palmieri. He thinks the old-style politics of Bill Clinton are relics of a bygone time."
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Apr 18, 2017 03:35
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https://twitter.com/jamisonfoser/status/854114394174701568
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Apr 18, 2017 03:39
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JeffersonClay posted:The more blame that is placed on the Clinton campaign for the loss, the less need the democrats will feel to make fundamental changes in policy.
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Apr 18, 2017 03:45
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JeffersonClay posted:Third way Clintonism, whatever that might mean You know the New Democrats and Third Wayism (which was larger than the Clinton's, they just gave it a local flavour) are actually coherent political philosophies, and pushed as such, and pushed by a rather clear central circle of individuals. If you don't know what it means look it up because it's not like it was a big secret, and it had a lot of adherents on both sides of the aisle for a while. By acting like you don't know what it means, you just make yourself look ignorant. Here's some places to get started - the encyclopedia! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democrats https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Leadership_Council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_(think_tank)
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Apr 18, 2017 04:08
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GlyphGryph posted:You know the New Democrats and Third Wayism (which was larger than the Clinton's, they just gave it a local flavour) are actually coherent political philosophies, and pushed as such, and pushed by a rather clear central circle of individuals. I believe JC is referring to how people throw around terms like ~*neo-liberal*~ ~*centrist*~ ~*DLC*~ and *~third wayism*~ as a boogyman for anyone who doesn't believe in Full Communism Now in this forum.
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Apr 18, 2017 04:18
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axeil posted:I believe JC is referring to how people throw around terms like ~*neo-liberal*~ ~*centrist*~ ~*DLC*~ and *~third wayism*~ as a boogyman for anyone who doesn't believe in Full Communism Now in this forum. lol that centrists hate being called centrists what's so hard about admitting you're benefiting greatly from the status quo and intended to ensure that power structure remains NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 04:23
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axeil posted:I believe JC is referring to how people throw around terms like ~*neo-liberal*~ ~*centrist*~ ~*DLC*~ and *~third wayism*~ as a boogyman for anyone who doesn't believe in Full Communism Now in this forum. by diluting their own descriptions their position becomes like mist on the wind, impossible to find and refute.
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Apr 18, 2017 04:26
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NewForumSoftware posted:lol that centrists hate being called centrists well at least i'm not a loving tankie
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Apr 18, 2017 04:26
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axeil posted:well at least i'm not a loving tankie no, you're a person who says things like "I'd support Civil Rights if MLK wasn't so uppity"
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Apr 18, 2017 04:27
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axeil posted:I believe JC is referring to how people throw around terms like ~*neo-liberal*~ ~*centrist*~ ~*DLC*~ and *~third wayism*~ as a boogyman for anyone who doesn't believe in Full Communism Now in this forum. Maybe, but GlyphGryph is also correct that "Third Way" is a real political term and it's appropriate to use it to refer to Bill Clinton, at least. Using it to describe Hillary Clinton in 2016 or centrists in general is maybe more questionable.
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Apr 18, 2017 04:28
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axeil posted:I believe JC is referring to how people throw around terms like ~*neo-liberal*~ ~*centrist*~ ~*DLC*~ and *~third wayism*~ as a boogyman for anyone who doesn't believe in Full Communism Now in this forum. Well then that's a weird way to respond to someone who was using the words to refer to the actual ideology and associated approach rather than talking about any specific boogeyman. I think it's more likely he just enjoys making it difficult to critique or even talk about the ideology and knows full well what it is. NewForumSoftware posted:lol that centrists hate being called centrists Centrists like to pretend they are moderates instead of denying that centrism is a political philosophy of it's own that takes on various forms. And lots of moderates call themselves centrists because the term has been intentionally misused by people advocating stuff like Third Wayism for so long.
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Apr 18, 2017 04:30
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NewForumSoftware posted:
the status quo is loving awesome and i love it and i benefit from it. except we have a president and congress who want to roll it all back and that's pretty bad! Paradoxish posted:Maybe, but GlyphGryph is also correct that "Third Way" is a real political term and it's appropriate to use it to refer to Bill Clinton, at least. Using it to describe Hillary Clinton in 2016 or centrists in general is maybe more questionable. GlyphGryph posted:Well then that's a weird way to respond to someone who was using the words to refer to the actual ideology and associated approach rather than talking about any specific boogeyman. Both are very fair points and I agree that it was a weird way to respond. Sorry.
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Apr 18, 2017 04:30
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christ, the WaPo review is garbage Can someone explain to me how PA is supposed to prove that more resources devoted to WI and MI wouldn't have mattered, given that it's well documented that she ignored the state outside Pittsburgh and Philly?
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Apr 18, 2017 04:31
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axeil posted:the status quo is loving awesome and i love it and i benefit from it.
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Apr 18, 2017 04:31
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GlyphGryph posted:Centrists like to pretend they are moderates instead of denying that centrism is a political philosophy of it's own that takes on various forms. And lots of moderates call themselves centrists because the term has been intentionally misused by people advocating stuff like Third Wayism for so long. Or maybe I'm even wrong about this. It's very difficult to talk about, but not because Third Way/Centrist/New Democrat philosophy isn't a real thing advocated by real people in real positions of power in the Democratic party.
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Apr 18, 2017 04:32
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Paradoxish posted:Maybe, but GlyphGryph is also correct that "Third Way" is a real political term and it's appropriate to use it to refer to Bill Clinton, at least. Using it to describe Hillary Clinton in 2016 or centrists in general is maybe more questionable. It's not questionable at all, she fits every single aspect of Third Wayism, from her corporatism, to the blatant use of social 'fracturant' questions as a cover for the lack of a real progressive economic programme.
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Apr 18, 2017 04:33
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axeil posted:the status quo is loving awesome and i love it and i benefit from it It's important to remember that it might be awesome for you in particular but it's very much not awesome for a very large number of people, and even for those whom it is still good it was even before on track to look much worse (and inevitably so) in the forseeable future.
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Apr 18, 2017 04:33
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Barry Convex posted:christ, the WaPo review is garbage She had to win all three of PA/WI/MI and even if she had thrown more resources at WI and MI and somehow wins a squeaker she still probably loses PA because she ignored places like Scranton, State College, Harrisburg, Erie, etc. and was pretty much getting the maximum vote she reasonably could expect out of Philly and Pittsburgh. GlyphGryph posted:It's important to remember that it might be awesome for you in particular but it's very much not awesome for a very large number of people, and even for those whom it is still good it was even before on track to look much worse (and inevitably so) in the forseeable future. Agreed, which is why I'm a Democrat so they can fix the inevitable flaws that arise in any system. Pure status quo and steady state forever is just as dumb as lighting everything on fire. Sadly, I think I'm the only incrementalist left in this forum at this point. If the polling is there though then I say the Dems should go for it. axeil fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 04:35
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axeil posted:She had to win all three of PA/WI/MI and even if she had thrown more resources at WI and MI and somehow wins a squeaker she still probably loses PA because she ignored places like Scranton, State College, Harrisburg, Erie, etc. Well, yeah, she ignored the parts of PA most demographically similar to the parts of WI and MI that cost her those states. That's the point.
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Apr 18, 2017 04:37
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Barry Convex posted:Well, yeah, she ignored the parts of PA most demographically similar to the parts of WI and MI that cost her those states. That's the point. Oh.  Carry on then...
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Apr 18, 2017 04:39
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axeil posted:Agreed, which is why I'm a Democrat so they can fix the inevitable flaws that arise in any system. Pure status quo and steady state forever is just as dumb as lighting everything on fire. Yeah but it means whenever you say it like you did, in a sweeping way, you're gonna piss off people for whom it's not true. Which doesn't really matter on an internet forum unless you want a conversation that isn't full of pissed off people (and who wants that?), but was a bit more of a problem when Hillary did it, hahah. ... But seriously someone tell me that someone, anyone, on the National level is offering support to Quist because I am working really hard at political reform locally and I am gonna seriously lose like a third of my volunteers if the national Dems don't do something to signify an ounce of solidarity with a Sanders Democrat sometime soon. I'm far more interested in the Dems being less of a waste moving forward than re-litigating Hillary's bad campaign. I like Ossof, I'm glad they're supporting him, but surely they must have a few resources they can send Quist's way?
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Apr 18, 2017 04:40
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axeil posted:Agreed, which is why I'm a Democrat so they can fix the inevitable flaws that arise in any system. Is inequality a feature or a flaw?
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Apr 18, 2017 04:42
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Fados posted:It's not questionable at all, she fits every single aspect of Third Wayism, from her corporatism, to the blatant use of social 'fracturant' questions as a cover for the lack of a real progressive economic programme. I'm calling it questionable because people like Bill Clinton and Tony Blair didn't actually run from the term or try to disguise it. It wasn't something that was thrown at them as an insult, it was just what they were. Hillary Clinton's 2016 platform was center-left by American standards and I think it's fine to call her a centrist, but I hate seeing "third wayism" thrown around as a derogatory term because it leads to all sorts of stupid pedantic arguments (like this one).
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Apr 18, 2017 04:43
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NewForumSoftware posted:Is inequality a feature or a flaw? Some people are better than others. Ideally that is borne out through talent although in the current system, starting conditions matter far too much. We should work to achieve a system where all who have talent are able to rise to the top, regardless of where they start. GlyphGryph posted:Yeah but it means whenever you say it like you did, in a sweeping way, you're gonna piss off people for whom it's not true. Which doesn't really matter on an internet forum unless you want a conversation that isn't full of pissed off people (and who wants that?), but was a bit more of a problem when Hillary did it, hahah. As a veteran of the Primary Wars, everything is more fun when people are madposting (oh god no that isn't true at all, can't we all just get along and laugh at trump and post Cool Articles?) GlyphGryph posted:But seriously someone tell me that someone, anyone, on the National level is offering support to Quist because I am working really hard at political reform locally and I am gonna seriously lose like a third of my volunteers if the national Dems don't do something to signify an ounce of solidarity with a Sanders Democrat sometime soon. I'm far more interested in the Dems being less of a waste moving forward than re-litigating Hillary's bad campaign. In my brief googling it seems like the usual players in Act Blue and DKos are supporting him. The race isn't until May so hopefully after GA-6 finishes its first round tomorrow all eyes turn there. If not though...then yeah that is hosed up. Dude has been leading in some polling and seems to have a platform that's well tailored for MT. I've always thought that MT a much richer target for Dems than the other states they're always trying to bring along (GA, AZ, TX) given its history of contrarianism and electing lots of Dems at the state level in the past. True, you only pick up 1 rep and it's only 3 EVs but it still has 2 Senate seats like every other state and it's dirt cheap to carpet the place in ads. Same thing with the Dakotas especially now that the bottom has fallen out of the oil shale market and there's a lot of folks there without jobs. axeil fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 04:47
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axeil posted:well at least i'm not a loving tankie I can name maybe three people on all of Dnd and its subforum who are tankies. MOst people who despise the three way are not that extreme.
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Apr 18, 2017 04:47
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axeil posted:Some people are better than others. Ideally that is borne out through talent although in the current system, starting conditions matter far too much. We should work to achieve a system where all who have talent are able to rise to the top, regardless of where they start. Yeah man, we need an underclass of miserable dregs. How else are can the truly elite differentiate themselves from their inferiors?
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Apr 18, 2017 05:00
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It's so convenient that poverty is proof of one's inborn inferiority, that way all suffering and privation is automatically justified and I don't have to feel bad.
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Apr 18, 2017 05:20
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Paradoxish posted:I'm calling it questionable because people like Bill Clinton and Tony Blair didn't actually run from the term or try to disguise it. It wasn't something that was thrown at them as an insult, it was just what they were. Hillary Clinton's 2016 platform was center-left by American standards and I think it's fine to call her a centrist, but I hate seeing "third wayism" thrown around as a derogatory term because it leads to all sorts of stupid pedantic arguments (like this one).  ), and that's before you take into account that you're talking about her platform, not the policies she would've actually pursued if she won.
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Apr 18, 2017 05:40
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Paradoxish posted:Maybe, but GlyphGryph is also correct that "Third Way" is a real political term and it's appropriate to use it to refer to Bill Clinton, at least. Using it to describe Hillary Clinton in 2016 or centrists in general is maybe more questionable. Thats because she took more money from banks and multinational corporations in 2016 than republicans did, right?
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Apr 18, 2017 06:02
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Barry Convex posted:Can someone explain to me how PA is supposed to prove that more resources devoted to WI and MI wouldn't have mattered, given that it's well documented that she ignored the state outside Pittsburgh and Philly? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj-sAmrGtRs Grognan posted:by diluting their own descriptions their position becomes like mist on the wind, impossible to find and refute.
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Apr 18, 2017 06:03
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well, bernie's officially helping quist out: http://robquist.org/bernie-sanders-backs-rob-quist-will-campaign-montana-next-month/ where's the DNC? oh right, they're so toxic that they can't be associated with or aid candidates in red states (cept one in georgia, who is completely coincidentally strongly aligned with the establishment) edit: lets see what wonderful hillary people got on the unity commission... jeff berman? https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/697468224267399169 geo group lobbyist huh? i wonder what they lobby for quote:The GEO Group, Inc. (GEO) is a Florida-based company specializing in corrections, detention and mental health treatment. It maintains facilities in North America, Australia, South Africa and the United Kingdom. In 2015 the GEO Group's federal contracts with the United States government for operating prisons generated about 45% of its revenues. oh. hillary still loves the hell out of private prisons huh? Condiv fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 07:53
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VitalSigns posted:
There are plenty of people who would call Bernie a traitorous Trot who merely upholds a corrupt system. The hard left, so far left that even Bernie is to their right, has gotten increasingly unreasonable.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:24
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