|
resurgam40 posted:And to the point where I should remember it's just a story, and should calm down: I can't really do that, sorry. I care about stories, always have; it's really, really hard to detach myself from a story I've come to like. Other people read books, but I...live them; it's the difference between drinking water from a stream and throwing yourself into said stream and immersing every part of you. So I get involved; I attach myself to the flow of the imaginary characters and feel what they feel (even literally, sometimes- an active imagination causes me to imagine certain wounds very well... still haven't brought myself to watch certain movies because I know how difficult some of those wounds can be for me). That's how one "reads a book", as I have come to understand it, and I generally don't regret it (unless the book turns out to be poo poo, of course). But I was kinda ill prepared for this, even after everything else that's happened; Beatrice was positively kind compared to Erika. Given the length of your post, you probably wrote this before reading the latest update, didn't you? I can only imagine how THAT had to feel... I usually have a rather detached, analytical attitude when reading literature, and I still found that scene rather painful.
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 14:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 22:06 |
|
|
Far be it from me to tell other people to not get emotionally invested in stories - that ability is what gives them power, after all. This is one of the most painful and brutal scenes in Umineko, so I can understand how difficult it can be to get through. On a savage, visceral level, Bernkastel is one of my most despised villains in all of fiction, and this trial is why. Please look forward to the remaining scenes of Episode 5.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 14:38
|
|
|
Bern is seriously the worst.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 14:56
|
|
|
resurgam, your post was very fitting, don't worry about it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 14:56
|
|
|
Shinji117 posted:Bern is seriously the worst. Not an emptyquote.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 14:58
|
|
|
Carpator Diei posted:Given the length of your post, you probably wrote this before reading the latest update, didn't you? I can only imagine how THAT had to feel... I usually have a rather detached, analytical attitude when reading literature, and I still found that scene rather painful. Well, it didn't feel good, I can say that much. To elaborate my feelings on Bernestakel and Erika at this moment in time would probably be a bit too similar to yesterday's post, and I am trying to cut back on those.  Although... it's good that Prof pointed out his edit; what an interesting face that Erika makes when she says that she cannot trust the red truth, even in matters of love... and interesting is what she says next, the bit about how men never take the words of women seriously. I sense pain here, and heartbreak... I wonder if that is my Erika upholds her master so much: if Witches are beings apart from pain, and presumably don't have any emotions, then there's no way they can hurt, or so Erika believes. Does that mean that she, a detective, truly wants to become a Witch, that she might be above humans and thus truly be as heartless as she pretends to be? Is that what Beatrice wanted too, more than magic or power? Beatrice. Another point surfaces when comparing this loveless game to her own boards: A Witch is evidently a horror that towers above mortals and torments them for pleasure, but feels no torment of their own. And Beatrice, in the end, despite all of her efforts and desires, was no Witch.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 15:10
|
|
|
resurgam40 posted:*And apologies especially to EagerSleeper for my language. Was it the C-word that did it? I can't speak for other goons, but personally that was where the line was crossed into "woah there friend, you might need to slow down". I am all for getting emotionally invested in a story, but not to the point of it being a detriment to your health and sanity. When otherwise cordial folk start cussing like drunken sailors who've just been kicked in the jimmies by an angry mule, then it's pretty clear a breath needs to be taken. However, resurgam40 posted:Am I really not allowed to get angry at this? I don't think anyone's said not to get angry; it's just that lashing out with that anger doesn't really help anyone, as Battler himself has shown many a time.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 15:57
|
|
|
Wow. Natsuhi is so much like a pitbull: unwilling to let go of a fight even when the potential boons of victory have been whittled down to nothing. And it's so sad when you realize that the murders and phone calls and violence are potentially just a ruse (ok maybe not the violence) to get her to confess this one thing. That she's willing to be burned at the stake over men who certainly weren't willing to put their egos, let alone their lives, on the line for her sake. That said, I have a hard time feeling sympathy for people like her, who let their emotions override their ability to accurately assess and adapt to high pressure situations. I understand why she is like that, but it is hard to watch her flounder and fail to see opportunities to maneuver her way out of this or at least get people to see how she is a victim, too. edit: yeah resurgam, you're a homie, but your use of misogynistic slurs put me on pause for a bit. I feel you though. witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Apr 18, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 15:59
|
|
|
clearly her love for her family is way more important than her life Natsuhi's a good lady.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 16:08
|
|
|
Battler definitely screwed up, but I don't see any way that this story advances if he doesn't come back and turn it around somehow. So don't worry so much; he'll get a moment of some kind, I'm sure. As for the most recent update, Jesus Christ. As far as I can tell, Erika's main failings as a detective are her arrogance and her vindictiveness, and we're getting a real showcase of both of those here. This whole extra thing is totally unnecessary.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 16:25
|
|
|
Erika/Bern are kind of frustrating characters to deal with. It's obnoxious to have theories shot down with just 'nah' 'why not' 'cuz nah'. Like I understand that's the point, but it's still very unpleasant to read?
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 16:31
|
|
|
Tender Child Loins posted:Wow. Natsuhi is so much like a pitbull: unwilling to let go of a fight even when the potential boons of victory have been whittled down to nothing. And it's so sad when you realize that the murders and phone calls and violence are potentially just a ruse (ok maybe not the violence) to get her to confess this one thing. That she's willing to be burned at the stake over men who certainly weren't willing to put their egos, let alone their lives, on the line for her sake. I actually respect that. She'd been put in an impossible position. At least not admitting anything was a "gently caress you" to Bern. It's not like if she'd been more rational she could have saved herself, at very best it reveals she's been lying about Kinzo still being alive, and her life remains a living hell at that point. Plus she probably then ends up being murdered down the line by the real killer. None of the pieces have any real power, they're puppets on strings. It seems like defiance before the witch is the best that they can hope to achieve. Also, while Kinzo's a dick, it feels like you might be defaming Krauss a bit there. He's certainly useless, but he actually seems like he might have become a good guy (though it sounds like in the past he definitely wasn't). He was certainly willing to risk dying to try and help Jessica in the last episode.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 16:37
|
|
|
For all her smugness, Erika is really playing on easy mode, isn't she. Lambda isn't even trying. Sure, just selectively ignore red truths that don't fit your theory, why not. Must be so tough, winning a game where both players are on your side. Welcome to Whose Witch Is It Anyway, where everything is made up and the truth doesn't matter
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 17:01
|
|
|
quote:
gently caress Krauss.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 17:21
|
|
"Shut your mouth!! You don't understand anything about money or business or economics!! Don't try to butt in on your husband's job!! A wife should be satisfied with doing housework! Don't speak!!!"
|
I think the main thing in this story is that everyone is both a colossal rear end in a top hat and kind of a nice person once you get to know them. Sort of like real people; they aren't strictly divided into good and bad, they just have good parts and (sometimes serious) problems and weaknesses. Except George, apparently, at least unless I manage to pin something on him.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 17:26
|
|
|
Tender Child Loins posted:gently caress Krauss. Okay. Yeah. I'd selectively removed that from my memory.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 17:28
|
|
|
idonotlikepeas posted:I think the main thing in this story is that everyone is both a colossal rear end in a top hat and kind of a nice person once you get to know them. Sort of like real people; they aren't strictly divided into good and bad, they just have good parts and (sometimes serious) problems and weaknesses. He's dating someone who only turned the age of consent in Japan this year. That probably counts.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 17:33
|
|
|
CottonWolf posted:Okay. Yeah. I'd selectively removed that from my memory. I'll defend Krauss, slightly, by pointing out that this very update shows what a sincerely considerate person he can be to women. But we shouldnt forget just how loving patriarchal the family he grew up in is. It's not surprising that, wheb he'a pushed to thr brink of dispair, he falls back on that old training and lashes out. It's not at all acceptable. But its not coming out of nowhere. As in all things in this lovely, lovely family, it comes back to Kinzo.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 17:37
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:For all her smugness, Erika is really playing on easy mode, isn't she. Lambda isn't even trying. Sure, just selectively ignore red truths that don't fit your theory, why not. Must be so tough, winning a game where both players are on your side. I think this is why it has been most the frustrating (for me) thing to read through this section. It makes sense the Lambadelta is enjoying herself having less stake than everyone else, but now she actively trying to end the game on a pin against Natsuhi for no reason. Maybe there's a plan she has in mind that will flip everything on it's head, but I can't get the feeling of anime bullshit for the sake of making the audience feel bad for the characters with actual stakes involved. It just feels really cheap to me and I feel the opposite of the way resugram40 felt because it makes no sense to me. In other words I don't feel anything. Edit: agreed gently caress Krauss, Erika did you forget that he has no alibi?
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 17:40
|
|
|
I guess this is what you get when the judge is the prosecution's girlfriend.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 17:45
|
|
|
oath2order posted:I'll defend Krauss, slightly, by pointing out that this very update shows what a sincerely considerate person he can be to women. But we shouldnt forget just how loving patriarchal the family he grew up in is. It's not surprising that, wheb he'a pushed to thr brink of dispair, he falls back on that old training and lashes out. Maybe it's my personal poo poo, but I have zero tolerance for that excuse. Only being considerate and non-misogynistic when he's not stressed or pissed off is worse, in my book. And he's an adult. We can only blame daddy so much after a certain point; after that, our behavior is on us.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 17:47
|
|
|
Tender Child Loins posted:Maybe it's my personal poo poo, but I have zero tolerance for that excuse. Only being considerate and non-misogynistic when he's not stressed or pissed off is worse, in my book. And he's an adult. We can only blame daddy so much after a certain point; after that, our behavior is on us. As always I don't intend to absolve the characters or give you extra insight, merely remind you of what has been ‹presented›
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 18:00
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 18:16
|
|
|
Man, that's just brutal. A lot of respect has to be given to Natsuhi here, but in this case it's gotten increasingly difficult to separate the world of the board from the world of the meta, to the point where I wonder if she knows if Krauss is dead or not. I'd say not, which means she's doing all of this to help save the honour of the already-dead. I really find Erika's outburst here to be quite reminiscent of Battler's back in Episode 4, where he declares that he won't trust what Beatrice's saying about his 'sin' unless it's declared in red. Notably here, where Battler's was about rejecting the negative, Erika's rejecting the positive. Bern really took some...interesting lessons from Higurashi. I do have to wonder where Kinzo and Krauss's bodies are hidden, though. Beatrice must know the location of the first, and also must be someone who knows that Kinzo is definitely dead and wishes to hide that fact. Another point towards Shannon. ZiegeDame posted:For all her smugness, Erika is really playing on easy mode, isn't she. Lambda isn't even trying. Sure, just selectively ignore red truths that don't fit your theory, why not. Must be so tough, winning a game where both players are on your side. ? The only one she ignored was the one that wasn't backed up with any evidence - Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit, and that was denied with Knox's 2nd as gathered through a solely supernatural source.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 18:18
|
|
|
Cyouni posted:Man, that's just brutal. A lot of respect has to be given to Natsuhi here, but in this case it's gotten increasingly difficult to separate the world of the board from the world of the meta, to the point where I wonder if she knows if Krauss is dead or not. I'd say not, which means she's doing all of this to help save the honour of the already-dead. I think the point is that Lambda, as the GM, has the right to drop KINZO IS ALREADY DEAD whenever she wants. She's choosing not to, even when, as the ostensible witch's side player, she'll lose if Natsuhi becomes the human culprit.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 18:27
|
|
|
Fabulousvillain posted:I think this is why it has been most the frustrating (for me) thing to read through this section. It makes sense the Lambadelta is enjoying herself having less stake than everyone else, but now she actively trying to end the game on a pin against Natsuhi for no reason. Maybe there's a plan she has in mind that will flip everything on it's head, but I can't get the feeling of anime bullshit for the sake of making the audience feel bad for the characters with actual stakes involved. It just feels really cheap to me and I feel the opposite of the way resugram40 felt because it makes no sense to me. In other words I don't feel anything. Krauss has an alibi via red text that for some reason they are accepting. And that reason is that his isn't a trial in any way - it's a metaphorical witch hunt, as opposed to the literal witch hunts that should be going on. Cyouni posted:? The only one she ignored was the one that wasn't backed up with any evidence - Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit, and that was denied with Knox's 2nd as gathered through a solely supernatural source. They've allowed tons of red texts that weren't backed by any evidence. Red texts about Krauss not being the culprit and being dead. Red texts about the state of the people in the mansion. In this update we got red text about Kinzo not being anywhere outside the mansion, based on Erika "looking around". Looking around the entire island, including its second secret mansion. Complete nonsense. Only the prosecution is allowed any evidence in this "trial". The defense has nothing. Erika treats Natsuhis journals as facts but her words as lies, because one is convenient for her case and the other isn't. Erika isn't a detective. At all. She started with a theory on who did it and is warping everything she can to pretend it's true. From an actual fictional detective: "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 18:43
|
|
|
Ostensibly, the reason Erika's faction can dole out unfair truths to suit their purposes whenever they want is because the player, Bernkastel, has the rank of Witch. Witches can provide red for free, humans can't do it without proof.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 18:44
|
|
|
oath2order posted:I'll defend Krauss, slightly, by pointing out that this very update shows what a sincerely considerate person he can be to women. But we shouldnt forget just how loving patriarchal the family he grew up in is. It's not surprising that, wheb he'a pushed to thr brink of dispair, he falls back on that old training and lashes out. Eva: Outright kills her family in EP 3, and thinks the suffering she endured in childhood is grounds to be a massive rear end in a top hat to everyone around her. Rosa: A child abuser who takes out all her anger on her daughter. Rudolf: Got two women pregnant at the same time, married one of them, and then married the other after the first one dies. Krauss' biggest sin is that he's a lovely business man and has adapted Kinzo's misogyny. But when things started looking bad, he offered to give Natsuhi and Jessica a way out so only he would be punished for his crimes. He isn't a perfect person, no one in this story is, but he's arguably the least hosed up.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 18:50
|
|
|
Qrr posted:In this update we got red text about Kinzo not being anywhere outside the mansion, based on Erika "looking around". Looking around the entire island, including its second secret mansion. Complete nonsense. No, didn't you read it? She didn't look through the entire island. The fact that Erika didn't find any clues about Kinzo existing anywhere outside effectively proves that Kinzo doesn't exist anywhere outside. Knox's 8th, detective's authority. It's proof enough.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 18:51
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:Ostensibly, the reason Erika's faction can dole out unfair truths to suit their purposes whenever they want is because the player, Bernkastel, has the rank of Witch. Witches can provide red for free, humans can't do it without proof. Well yes, that's what happens when you have a kangaroo court. Only the ones who support the desired conclusion are allowed to speak, and only about things that support that conclusion. Them calling the cheating side "witches" is not relevant to the scenario. tiistai posted:No, didn't you read it? She didn't look through the entire island. The fact that Erika didn't find any clues about Kinzo existing anywhere outside effectively proves that Kinzo doesn't exist anywhere outside. Knox's 8th, detective's authority. It's proof enough. That is not how Knoxs 8th works. Oh, and Knoxs 8th hurts her - she once again found clues and didn't present them to the viewer until the trial. She's not a detective. Qrr fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Apr 18, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 18:50
|
|
|
Qrr posted:Krauss has an alibi via red text that for some reason they are accepting. And that reason is that his isn't a trial in any way - it's a metaphorical witch hunt, as opposed to the literal witch hunts that should be going on. Doesn't that only apply as an alibi to the murder of Hideyoshi? The trial never even got to that part so it really doesn't matter. I'm talking about Erika saying that the only Kinzo could have done it without even mentioning Krauss on the gameboard.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 18:53
|
|
|
Qrr posted:That is not how Knoxs 8th works. Having to present found clues for the viewer isn't included in the red. Oh, and she was pronounced a detective in red, so she is one, simple as that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 18:57
|
|
|
lotus circle posted:Eva: Outright kills her family in EP 3, and thinks the suffering she endured in childhood is grounds to be a massive rear end in a top hat to everyone around her. This was implied. But never proven. I still think it might be a misdirection, as you never hear Beatrice's solution and we came up with several ways that the murders could have happened without Eva being the killer.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 18:57
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:For all her smugness, Erika is really playing on easy mode, isn't she. Lambda isn't even trying. Sure, just selectively ignore red truths that don't fit your theory, why not. Must be so tough, winning a game where both players are on your side. Not to mention it isn't exactly like Lambdadelta broke her back trying to even set up the illusion of the witch in the first place. Battler gets to struggle against insane chained locked rooms and phone calls from family members screaming to him that magic is real, Erika gets to wonder for a second where the family found an envelope. There is basically no illusion of the witch for her to dispel in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 18:58
|
|
|
tiistai posted:It is here. What does "presented" mean, then? That nothing at all is evidence unless the detective says it at some point (not when they discover it)? I thought their premise was that this was a mystery story. Resolving a mystery because the detective reveals something that they knew all along at the end of the story makes it third rate. And, as we've been told repeatedly, Erika is a first rate jackass.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 19:02
|
|
|
Qrr posted:What does "presented" mean, then? That nothing at all is evidence unless the detective says it at some point (not when they discover it)? Being included in the story. It's not the detective's responsibility to present clues, it's the author's.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 19:05
|
|
|
Qrr posted:Krauss has an alibi via red text that for some reason they are accepting. And that reason is that his isn't a trial in any way - it's a metaphorical witch hunt, as opposed to the literal witch hunts that should be going on. Well, Krauss is only a suspect if the human side (represented by Natsuhi) is willing to push in that direction. So he's out. Unless literally everyone in the family conference is in on it (aka everyone left alive), they're out. Everyone in the guesthouse has an alibi for one reason or another, so they're out. What you're missing is that the human side failed to offer any proof to counter anything the Erika faction offered. "Kinzo is dead" wipes out that entire last update's worth regarding him, for example. Any alternate suspect or possibility presented would clear out the lock on Natsuhi, and none was provided. Qrr posted:That is not how Knoxs 8th works. You're mistaking Knox's Decalogue for the Ten Witch-Hunting Stakes. As has been noted, they're not the same.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 19:05
|
|
|
tiistai posted:Being included in the story. It's not the detective's responsibility to present clues, it's the author's. Then Knoxs 8th isn't a counter to anything. Just because it hasn't been presented yet doesn't mean it won't be later. Cyouni posted:Well, Krauss is only a suspect if the human side (represented by Natsuhi) is willing to push in that direction. So he's out. I will also note that in a real trial, just because the current defendant doesn't want to accuse someone else of the crime doesn't mean you discount them as a potential culprit. Natsuhi doesn't want Krauss or Kinzo to be responsible, but why should the court care? Of course, this court cares because they're not trying to solve anything, just to hurt Natsuhi as much as possible. Oh, also since witches aren't real and are just metaphorical: what the heck is going on there? This must represent someone attacking Natsuhi. So who is doing it and what's their motivation? Mary Sue isn't doing it on behalf of Bernkastel because Bern is imaginary. So what is actually going on? I guess Mary Sue could have a reason to dislike Natsuhi, though I'm not sure how - maybe it relates to that backstory where she comes from a noble family.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 19:14
|
|
|
Qrr posted:Then Knoxs 8th isn't a counter to anything. Just because it hasn't been presented yet doesn't mean it won't be later. That's exactly the kind of thing you said was third rate. Either way, it's the trial, there is no later.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 19:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 22:06 |
|
|
Tired Moritz posted:Being Natsuhi is suffering Goddamn if this ain't the truth. It's only use of slur words against minorities that I call foul against. It's in bad taste. There was a troll a while back that tried to call everyone in this thread neurodivergent (with different words of course) for being in this thread, but for the most part gendered slurs are still far more commonplace and are seen as acceptable by most unfortunately. However this is a topic that would be best left out of this thread. Feel free to PM me about this instead if you would like. Re: living Kinzo being in bed for a while, and Erika pushing Natsuhi into a corner. It's possible to slip through the red truth by saying that Natsuhi is the new Kinzo, head of the Ushiromiya household. Certainly her internal reason to fight for the honor of Ushiromiya name is because she considers herself the head now who must protect it. This would not contradict any of the red statements that said that Kinzo could have been in her bed, and that Kinzo never left the room they were in. A less strong argument would be to say that Battler is the new Kinzo now since he solved the epitaph, and also never left his room. The red truth claiming that it's possible for Kinzo to be hiding in Natsuhi's bed during a certain time frame refers only to a possibility, not an absolute. It's possible to make an argument of twisting the definition of that red truth for Battler to fill the criteria. Tender Child Loins posted:gently caress Krauss. 
EagerSleeper fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Apr 18, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2017 19:33
|
|
