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I guess my problem is that I don't think its properly representative of those notions. Especially when he branches off and becomes his own character who infiltrates the velvet room, I don't feel like im reforming that element of society. I feel like I'm summoning a giant robot to take out something that can't commit to being anything. Again, if Mementos was heaven and Yaldabaoth represented that complacency and attitude, only targeting you because the public wished you would go away - I could buy it. The iteration they went for has so many moments or aspects that are contradictory that I just can't wrap my head around it.
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Apr 19, 2017 06:47
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My read on Yaldabaoth is that, as god, he's the ultimate authority figure for the world. As "Igor" he's the ultimate authority for Joker. This game is all about rejecting authority in all it's forms--teachers, parents, politicians and anyone else who exercises control over other people, it's basically always portrayed in a negative light unless they intentionally fail to use that power (e.g. Sae, Sojiro). In a game where you have supernatural powers and reject authority, there's basically no possible ending other than you beating up god--it's basically the only way the story can end. The exact details of what kind of god he is are less important than that he's the ultimate authority figure.
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Apr 19, 2017 06:55
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cheetah7071 posted:The exact details of what kind of god he is are less important than that he's the ultimate authority figure. I can't accept that part.
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Apr 19, 2017 06:57
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What's up with akechi-kun and pancakes? His briefcase is dorky and it's awkward to keep running into him. Also why can't we go on dates together?!
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Apr 19, 2017 07:01
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Persona 5 portable female MC in 2 years. You will finally be able to date akechi, and absolutely nobody else.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:06
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The Gorp posted:Persona 5 portable female MC in 2 years. Sojiro.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:06
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The Gorp posted:I guess my problem is that I don't think its properly representative of those notions. Especially when he branches off and becomes his own character who infiltrates the velvet room, I don't feel like im reforming that element of society. I feel like I'm summoning a giant robot to take out something that can't commit to being anything. Again, if Mementos was heaven and Yaldabaoth represented that complacency and attitude, only targeting you because the public wished you would go away - I could buy it. The iteration they went for has so many moments or aspects that are contradictory that I just can't wrap my head around it. One of the base elements of Shin Megami Tensei is that God, well YHVH, and the general catholic/christian Pantheon are a representation of pure controlling Order over the masses with no permmittance for free will outside what they deem acceptable. At the far end of Order lies Chaos, where Lucifer, Satan, etc, are all for free will and believe Power is the one true measure of character. If you're strong enough to do something, you should be able go right for it and gently caress anyone who gets in your way. Heaven is not the nice place you think it is, it and Yaldabaoth are something to be fought tooth-and-nail because they are figures of Order.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:07
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The Gorp posted:I can't accept that part. I'm uncertain how you even accepted the basic premise of Persona then, ie that the Shadow world is a realm of stories and ideas that have power because we believe in them (consciously or unconsciously), not because they are true.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:11
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Hanging out with Mishima on Sundays provided even better opportunities to dunk on him than in his actual social link.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:13
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The Gorp posted:Persona 5 portable female MC in 2 years. Yusuke and Ryuji too. I hope it'd be on any platform but switch.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:12
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Also, regarding the Sin Bullet and a God figure being just as sinful: Turns out, a lot of authority figures are hypocrites. I feel like that's all there is to it and the bullet is more of a giant gently caress You than a matter of sins effecting him.  .
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Apr 19, 2017 07:13
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I'm pretty sure that Mishima asks you to hang out more than any of your actual party members.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:13
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Alder posted:Yusuke and Ryuji too. I hope it'd be on any platform but switch. I hope it's on switch
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Apr 19, 2017 07:14
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cheetah7071 posted:I hope it's on switch Honestly I don't think a Switch port is entirely impossible, given it's getting SMT games in some form or other. I doubt it'd happen, but I don't think it's impossible.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:15
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Alder posted:Yusuke and Ryuji too. I hope it'd be on any platform but switch. why do you hate good consoles
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Apr 19, 2017 07:17
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Chaos, where Lucifer, Satan, etc, are all for free will That's true for Lucifer, but Satan is kind of the opposite in SMT games
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Apr 19, 2017 07:18
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Neddy Seagoon posted:One of the base elements of Shin Megami Tensei is that God, well YHVH, and the general catholic/christian Pantheon are a representation of pure controlling Order over the masses with no permmittance for free will outside what they deem acceptable. At the far end of Order lies Chaos, where Lucifer, Satan, etc, are all for free will and believe Power is the one true measure of character. If you're strong enough to do something, you should be able go right for it and gently caress anyone who gets in your way. Heaven is not the nice place you think it is, it and Yaldabaoth are something to be fought tooth-and-nail because they are figures of Order. I understand that you need to fight Yaldabaoth. I understand that Satanael is the perfect figure to do it. What i don't get is how half-cocked he is. He doesn't represent a heaven, he doesn't represent order, he's a greedy and controlling douche who pretends that all of his motivations are fueled by the public while ignoring them. I would feel way better if you shot a YHVH figure in the head because at least that would be a parable, but Yaldabaoth doesn't really have a stance on anything. You fight him because he fused the world and Mementos and it sucks. He doesn't really represent order at all, in fact he actively destroys the natural order and makes the world his - because he has the merit to do so. When I say Mementos should have represented heaven, i don't mean that it's a good place. If it was a classical paradise that happened to be a prison where nobody thought for themselves and were drunk on bliss, there would be a reason to destroy it. The party could see that nobody would desire it and are kept down or controlled into not objecting to it, then you fight Yaldabaoth. He doesn't seem to be a control deity at all, but a figure born of public desires that then rebelled against the public itself. He uses the seven deadly sins against you, the whole enchilada. You could switch the names of Yaldabaoth and Satanael, as well as their designs and nothing would change.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:21
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Saagonsa posted:That's true for Lucifer, but Satan is kind of the opposite in SMT games Yeah it's important to remember there's three specific interpretations of the (arguably) same entity here Lucifer is Chaos rah rah I'm an objectivist asshat might makes right guy. Arguably in line with the Christian interpretation Satan is YHWH's servant and exists to tempt man. Roughly in line with the Judaic understanding of the figure. Satanael is Gnostic Lucifer who exists to deliver man from the deceptions of the Demiurge aka Yaldabaoth, and in so doing awaken man to the possibility of the spiritual realm beyond the material over which the Demiurge holds sway.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:23
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The Gorp posted:I understand that you need to fight Yaldabaoth. I understand that Satanael is the perfect figure to do it. What i don't get is how half-cocked he is. He doesn't represent a heaven, he doesn't represent order, he's a greedy and controlling douche who pretends that all of his motivations are fueled by the public while ignoring them. That exact description reminds me of all the previous targets from Kamoshida up to Shido. They all believed there was a reason why it was okay for them to trample all over everybody beneath them, and none of them had particularly better reasons than Yaldabaoth's "because this is what I claim the public wants".
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Apr 19, 2017 07:25
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The Gorp posted:I understand that you need to fight Yaldabaoth. I understand that Satanael is the perfect figure to do it. What i don't get is how half-cocked he is. He doesn't represent a heaven, he doesn't represent order, he's a greedy and controlling douche who pretends that all of his motivations are fueled by the public while ignoring them. I would feel way better if you shot a YHVH figure in the head because at least that would be a parable, but Yaldabaoth doesn't really have a stance on anything. You fight him because he fused the world and Mementos and it sucks. He doesn't really represent order at all, in fact he actively destroys the natural order and makes the world his - because he has the merit to do so. He represents the apathy of society, which has been your enemy the entire game. The idea that injustice is "somebody else's problem". I'm really not sure what more you want; it's a perfect fit for the game. If anything, it's too perfect. Also, I wouldn't really say he's rebelling against society or that he represents society. He's the Shadow of society, the dark side of themselves they don't want to admit. This Shadow has simply gotten too powerful and suppressed the rest of it. UberJew posted:uh that's the entire point And this. Clarste fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 07:26
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slev posted:Hanging out with Mishima on Sundays provided even better opportunities to dunk on him than in his actual social link. But I could be hanging out with my actual friends. corn on the cop posted:I'm pretty sure that Mishima asks you to hang out more than any of your actual party members. That's because he's a creepy sycophant.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:27
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The Gorp posted:I understand that you need to fight Yaldabaoth. I understand that Satanael is the perfect figure to do it. What i don't get is how half-cocked he is. He doesn't represent a heaven, he doesn't represent order, he's a greedy and controlling douche who pretends that all of his motivations are fueled by the public while ignoring them. uh that's the entire point he's another hypocritical 'authority' figure that doesn't actually care about order or unity or any rhetorical nonsense but is just using and abusing his power in whatever way he desires. he rigged the game from the start because he doesn't actually care about fairness or anything but self-aggrandizement and when you started to prevail even with it rigged threw a temper tantrum and resorted to raw force, in the same way that shido resorted to murder, madarame to a private goonsquad or kamoshida to 'self-defense'. ryuji even spells it out; he's not a god he's just another lovely adult doing whatever he wants and pretending it is just because he has power
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Apr 19, 2017 07:28
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hunting for a hope diamond sure is tedious
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Apr 19, 2017 07:30
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UberJew posted:uh that's the entire point Which is, of course, the exact kind of authority figure that would fill the void left by an apathetic society kicking the can of authority and control down to whoever/whatever will provide a sense of order and stability. It is exactly what they asked for, whether they know it or not.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:30
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To put it another way, he doesn't represent order at all, not in the sense that YHWH does. He simply represents the mental chains that people shackle themselves with. "Control" is not the same thing as "Order". The Phantom Thieves have never been rebelling against order itself, only the assholes who appoint themselves king.
Clarste fucked around with this message at 07:39 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 07:36
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SyntheticPolygon posted:But I could be hanging out with my actual friends. Your actual friends show up and then you ditch Misihima for them
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Apr 19, 2017 07:48
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Im either a 6th dimensional genius who is seeing a paradox that nobody else can, or more likely I'm just too stupid to understand it. I'm probably just incapable of understanding. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3bEh-PEk1g The Gorp fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 07:50
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spit on my clit posted:why do you hate good consoles It has 1 game out and looks dumb.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:51
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The Gorp posted:I'm just too stupid to understand it.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:56
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Because as far as I can tell the metaphor doesn't work. I wouldn't be nearly as devoted to unraveling my reasons for hating it if I didn't care immensely. Something fundamental about the encounter seems like it betrays the theme of the entire game up until that point. Trying to understand Yaldabaoth might as well be trying to understand Yog Sothoth to me.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:59
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Well, from what I can tell you want the game to be representing something it doesn't. Didn't you also complain about the ending earlier? So you're trying to fit this into your broader misunderstanding of the rest of the game. Specifically, the game was never about you rebelling against Order as an abstract concept, or even Authority. You aren't the forces of Chaos fighting YHWH in a mainstream SMT game. You aren't anarchists plotting to bring down the government, and while "gently caress the Police" makes a good slogan that's not what you're about either. One of your party members (Makoto) dreams of being a police commissioner even as she's working with the Phantom Thieves. From beginning to end, the game is simply about justice. You target the criminals who society has allowed to prosper: they are specifically criminals who would be tossed in jail right away if it weren't for their social standing. IE: You don't hate society in general, you just hate that these specific people have been allowed to get away with their crimes. And the final boss is an embodiment of the aspect of society that let them do so.
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Apr 19, 2017 08:13
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Apr 19, 2017 08:13
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Clarste posted:Well, from what I can tell you want the game to be representing something it doesn't. Didn't you also complain about the ending earlier? So you're trying to fit this into your broader misunderstanding of the rest of the game. That was me actually and I stand by my reading.
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Apr 19, 2017 08:21
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Interrogation room spoilers: How was the decoy made? I read that Goro shot and killed a cognitive fake MC, but I must've missed how they created the fake.
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Apr 19, 2017 08:28
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Aurain make this av sized for me
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Apr 19, 2017 08:28
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MohShuvuu posted:Interrogation room spoilers: Its Sae's Palace. Her cognitive version of Joker was in the room because that's exactly where she expected him to be along with the cop he shot. Their plan worked because while Sae's desires were distorted, she still fundamentally still saw people as people and outside the courthouse her cognition was mostly the same as reality.
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Apr 19, 2017 08:30
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MohShuvuu posted:Interrogation room spoilers: remember when makoto specifically mentions the exact room where he would be interrogated if captured to sae one night seemingly apropos of nothing? sae's cognition is spot on to the real world outside the casino so...]
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Apr 19, 2017 08:32
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Captain Baal posted:Aurain make this av sized for me 
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Apr 19, 2017 08:31
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So, like, am I missing something or are a bunch of resistance passives (in particular literally all the Resist [Element] ones except Bless for some insane reason?) really gated to be Lockdown exclusive? Because that's the only conclusion I can come to from looking at a bunch of skill lists, unless they're somehow all wrong which... isn't impossible admittedly. But discounting that, that'd be kinda dumb in so many ways and it's not even really consistent with it. It'd make sense for stuff like Repel Phys to be gated away or DLC exclusive or whatever but that's on a bunch of things by default whereas something like Resist Wind just doesn't exist otherwise?
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Apr 19, 2017 08:33
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I don't know how all of that works but does seem that once you have high rank in Strength, Lockdown gives your persona the Null(s) they need more often than not.
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Apr 19, 2017 08:35
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