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I was just making a joke about how witch rhymes with bitch.  Seriously though, Rudolf is my fave and his adultery is so meh compared to Krauss's imcompetence, Eva's inferiority complex and Rosa's child abuse. Rudolf is good.
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Apr 19, 2017 06:52
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So, since the consensus was that the anime was spoiler-free (with one thing you might notice, and at least one thing that might be wrong), I went ahead and acquired a copy. I asked in the first place because I had an idea for a project, which is now complete. I don't generally do this kind of thing, so apologies if it isn't good: https://polsy.org.uk/play/yt/?vurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D5TWRvn91lvA (Warning: contains copious quantities of Umineko.)
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Apr 19, 2017 06:53
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Somehow that video's already blocked in the USA so oh well.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:04
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Yea, Battler's used red before, and failed when he tried to make a false statement (about who his mother was). It's just not allowed by the current GM because she has more fun this way. Really, the whole trial is much the same as witch Eva finding new ways to kill people, over and over and over. Witches are bored, powerful, and sadistic. Battler said one thing that caught my eye: that he had to win or Aunt Eva's murderous ways would go unchecked (phone post, so I'm paraphrasing). Unless Battler just toId us the culprit, I suppose he means her actions after being the only survivor. But I thought that was only in the third game. It also raises the question: we know the situation at the start of the game is always the same, but we do we know if it's always the same after? I thought it wasn't; Bern plucked Ange from the timeline after game three, warning her that changing the board would erase the timeline she was from.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:10
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havenwaters posted:Somehow that video's already blocked in the USA so oh well. Yeah, looks like it got auto-hit. If you're still curious, you can get it here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4vbWbHpBrhqd3VmZHB1X3hCTTQ Just click the download link in the upper-right.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:10
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BurningStone posted:Battler said one thing that caught my eye: that he had to win or Aunt Eva's murderous ways would go unchecked (phone post, so I'm paraphrasing). He meant Eva has been beating the poo poo out of Natsushi basically non-stop since Erika leveled her accusation against her.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:20
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Lord Koth posted:No matter how much people complain, the established rule for a multiple games now is that only witches are allowed to use the Red Truth. So continuing to complain about how Battler's use of it was shot down due to it being completely unsubstantiated while the witches can do so is silly. You have to accept that fact, or this argument is not going to go anywhere. Speaking of which, it to some degree is tricky trying to establish a timeline for that call. We know that soon after that, Krauss was killed thanks to the Bernkastel Bonus. We don't know how soon that happened, but we can say that the calls were definitely real, again thanks to Bernkastel Bonus. We know that it's near the time all the murders are discovered. If it's before, then no one in the guesthouse has an alibi time-wise. If it's after, I'm pretty sure they were moving as a group after that, so everyone in the guesthouse has an alibi. Betting it's purposefully vague for that reason. Though now that I look at it again, that's also the last time the caller, well, calls. So it could 100% be just Krauss on the other side of the line. For now, I'll be considering my next moves based on the assumption that no one in the guesthouse group would have been able to slip away to a hidden space to make a call at the time Genji's body was found. However, we can make the distinct note that Kanon and Gohda are not the caller. This does not prevent someone else from acting on their behalf. It should also be somewhat logical to make the guess that when Hideyoshi was killed, Krauss was already dead, unless soon after can qualify as more than 5 hours. That does make Hideyoshi's death tricky, because there were no signs of anyone entering the room between Natsuhi entering and Hideyoshi entering, implying that they were there beforehand. Assuming Nanjo was not in on it (though it's not illogical to assume he's in on the Beatrice conspiracy - most solutions involve him lying), we can assume that none of the dead cousins could have been hiding there. Everyone else appears to have been in the parlour with Erika. I refuse to have a witch as the killer, so there must be something I'm missing.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:26
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idonotlikepeas posted:Yeah, looks like it got auto-hit. If you're still curious, you can get it here: Yeah, YouTube link is a no-go in Mexico as well, if anyone's counting. Really awesome montage with the lyrics though! I haven't seen the anime but it looks DEEN as gently caress. Cyouni posted:Kanon and Gohda are not the caller. This does not prevent someone else from acting on their behalf. Why couldn't Kanon be the caller, though? That thought does lead to the macabre conclusion that Krauss may have been killed in the room next door to Natsuhi's bedroom.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:38
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Tender Child Loins posted:Why couldn't Kanon be the caller, though? That thought does lead to the macabre conclusion that Krauss may have been killed in the room next door to Natsuhi's bedroom. That would also require Gohda to be in on it, and Kanon would have to be so close that Natsuhi would be able to hear the sounds of them calling out to her on the phone. The caller speaks directly before and after Kanon and Gohda knock and call out, with barely any gap in between, though it does seem that the caller can hear a bit of what's on Natsuhi's end. Timing's way too close to be a thing. Edit: What's that shot of Genji looking at the bloody handprints on the door from? I only vaguely remember that being a thing in any of the first four episodes. Cyouni fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 08:05
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ZiegeDame posted:I'd say Natsushi has some pretty conclusive evidence she could present to prove Kinzo didn't do it. Yes, but she's unwilling to present that for the same reason she doesn't want to try to put the crime on him. Cyouni posted:See the quote I showed above? The red has been noted as unusable as a detective technique, by Knox's 2nd. And once again, they literally use the red as a detective technique there. Yes, they could have had other explanations for why they said that in red - if they'd said it because it would require an 8 person conspiracy or some very blind people, that might be ok. But that wasn't the explanation given. The red was given and when evidence was requested the response was "Nope, no evidence at all". quote:Actually, what she wants does matter, because the red truth is on the same meta level as the question as to whether Natsuhi wants to make Krauss the culprit or not. Red truth is true. Whether Natsuhi wants to make Krauss the culprit isn't. I'm not sure why you relate the two. And there is no evidence (besides supernatural evidence) that Krauss is even dead. Whether he died soon after Natsuhi woke up or between 24:00 and 1:00, it doesn't matter - there's no proof at all of either case. Lord Koth posted:No matter how much people complain, the established rule for a multiple games now is that only witches are allowed to use the Red Truth. So continuing to complain about how Battler's use of it was shot down due to it being completely unsubstantiated while the witches can do so is silly. You have to accept that fact, or this argument is not going to go anywhere. The established rule was that only witches were ABLE to use red truth. However, Battler is now able to use red truth, and his red truth is just as true as the witch red truth. It's not silly to expect consistency. There's nothing that would make his red truth illegal that wouldn't also make every other red truth illegal.
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Apr 19, 2017 08:28
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Qrr posted:And once again, they literally use the red as a detective technique there. Yes, they could have had other explanations for why they said that in red - if they'd said it because it would require an 8 person conspiracy or some very blind people, that might be ok. But that wasn't the explanation given. The red was given and when evidence was requested the response was "Nope, no evidence at all". Umineko, Part 48 posted:
The whole point is to avoid permanent stasis by Devil's Proof, by skipping things like "maybe there was a way for them to vanish without anyone noticing they vanished", or "perhaps everyone thought that cardboard cutout was them when they left because you can't prove that it didn't happen", or "everyone fell asleep thanks to some drug X and they walked out, and no one noticed this because their memory was altered by drug Y". It's not a detective's tool used as a proof. It's a witch's tool used to establish boundaries on the game so that perpetual check isn't established. Nothing stops anyone not a witch from using the red, as Battler did at Beato's request in order to remove himself from the game in episode 4. However, it is not accepted as fact by the rules of the game. ProfessorProf posted:
So Erika builds up evidence, and confirms the validity of the evidence (and absence of "unknown drug X" by getting Bern to repeat it), in the same way Battler used to have to require Beato to do. It's not used as a detective's tool, it's used as an anti-stupidity tool.
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Apr 19, 2017 09:00
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"No matter what magic move I use, you can always keep running away by repeating 'lack of information' and 'denying the basis."
"...Even though I would still win in the end that way, it would be extremely boring. Because of that, I think I'll give you that 'information' and 'basis' that you want."
"However, you'll probably doubt each word I say. That isn't bad in itself. I also will use every possible move to make you submit. I don't dislike our posture of searching out the best moves for ourselves."
"...But that won't make a game. So I set up this rule."
"Everything I speak in red is the truth! There's absolutely no need to doubt it!"
"...I know. 'Kinzo is dead at the starting time for all games'. Beato has already spoken that truth. In that battle, Battler-kun could only have achieved a draw at best. He most certainly had no chance at all of winning."
"...You're right. If you just say that, the whole fight's already over. Why didn't you use that red? Don't tell me it was because of a stalemate or something like that."
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Cyouni posted:So Erika builds up evidence, and confirms the validity of the evidence (and absence of "unknown drug X" by getting Bern to repeat it), in the same way Battler used to have to require Beato to do. It's not used as a detective's tool, it's used as an anti-stupidity tool. Once again, we're kind of talking past each other. I can accept Erika creating seals and having them verified by red truth. I can accept Erika listening to a silent room for 8 hours straight and getting red truth out of it. What I can't accept is Krauss - Erika did nothing for that. There's no evidence to confirm the validity of. There's no evidence at all And I can't accept the red for everyone in the manor. Because once again, they didn't provide any evidence for it to confirm the validity of. If they'd approached it differently it could have worked, but instead they went straight to the red instantly, and when asked for evidence they refused because red. And other people using red is absolutely fact per the rules of the game. Remember Battler trying to say something that wasn't true in red? He failed. Red text is true, whoever says it.
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Apr 19, 2017 09:26
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Qrr posted:In fact, when Bern stated in red that they had alibis and someone complained, her only justification is that the red was true because it's red. I don't have a hard basis for this, but basically it comes down to some mixture of 1) Bern is a witch and witches are allowed to use the red, 2) Lambda let it slide because it neatly advanced the game and she didn't want to bother pressing the point and/or 3) she's girlfriends with the prosecution. DLord posted:Problem he got it from a Witch, so it works because if Miss "OC' can use them so can Battler. If the rule of Red Truth is broken by anyone the game is not valid any more.  "...Wanna try complaining about the rules and stepping down from the game? Isn't that the favorite move of you mystery people♪ If there's even a tiny element that goes against your expectations, you have a tantrum and totally stop thinking."
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Apr 19, 2017 09:41
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Qrr posted:Once again, we're kind of talking past each other. I can accept Erika creating seals and having them verified by red truth. I can accept Erika listening to a silent room for 8 hours straight and getting red truth out of it. "They discussed the family stuff in the dining room until 1, with Shannon and Kanon in attendance the whole time" was stated multiple times over. That's the testimony and evidence. It's possible to doubt that, but again we come into the whole "can't prove they didn't mistake a cardboard cutout for any particular person the entire time", and that's the whole reason the red exists. Krauss being confirmed as dead when required is not actually part of the trial, again if you read that. It was noted even in the verdict that his murder was completely based on circumstantial evidence, and the fact that the possibility of his guilt was denied by Natsuhi was why he had an alibi for it. Again, anyone can use the red. It's not accepted as fact if you're not part of the witch side, and if you're part of the detective side you can request for it to be repeated to lock down details. This has been stated at least twice, and you're just trying to counter it and ignore the fact that was said because you don't like that it was said. Which you can totally do, but if you're not going to play by the rules of the game, then why play at all?
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Apr 19, 2017 10:07
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Cyouni posted:Again, anyone can use the red. It's not accepted as fact if you're not part of the witch side, and if you're part of the detective side you can request for it to be repeated to lock down details. Just to add to this, any red is still objectively true, human or witch side, it's just not admissible unless you're a witch. Because witches are horrible cheaters. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 12:21 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 12:18
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 BGM: Spiral Natsuhi, also hoping to take revenge for the financial submission her parents' family had been forced into by the Ushiromiya family, schemed to capture the Ushiromiya family's wealth. (*From the Trial Synopsis: Page 4)  To curry favor with Kinzo, Natsuhi repeatedly disguised herself as Beatrice, the witch of Kinzo's delusions, and engaged in sexual acts. Kinzo saw Natsuhi dressed as the mistress from his past and was easily ensnared. Furthermore, by accident, she was sometimes witnessed in this outfit by the servants, and this became part of the foundation for the legend of the witch. (*From the Trial Synopsis: Page 8) (*From presented evidence #17) (*From the Bernkastel Documents: Page 802)  Furthermore, Genji was murdered because he was opposed to this scheme. Later on, Hideyoshi was also murdered. From this point on, she displayed the strong intent to indiscriminately murder all those involved. (*From the Trial Synopsis: Page 27) (*From Supplemental Materials B: Page 61) (*From the Bernkastel Documents: Page 1103) The following outlines the details of the crime. 24:00, October 4th, 1986. Natsuhi decided to commit the crime. Because Genji refused to assist her when she asked, she murdered him.  Afterwards, she went to the so-called 'cousin room' on the second floor of the guesthouse, waited for Rosa to join the rest, and killed George, Jessica, Maria, and Rosa. She damaged the necks of those corpses. Afterwards, because there were people in the lounge on the first floor, she waited in an empty room on the second floor.  The people in the lounge dispersed just after 3:00 AM. Natsuhi left the empty room and escaped from the guesthouse. She returned to her personal room, where she met up with Kinzo, who had been hiding there. She stayed there until morning.    Predicting that one of those present would eventually want to take a rest in a private room, Natsuhi concealed herself inside a closet in one of the guest rooms.  From the time the others became aware of the incident to the time that they carried Hideyoshi's corpse out, Natsuhi once again concealed herself in the closet. Furthermore, as proof of this, a button from Natsuhi's clothes was found in the closet. Afterwards, she exited the closet and tried to return to her own room.    BGM: Voiceless As though she had given up and decided that it would be useless to try and talk her way out of this any longer, Aunt Natsuhi said that and screamed. It was a sad incident. I wanted to believe that, despite the pitiable circumstances which led to her marriage into the Ushiromiya family, Natsuhi just might have been able to grasp a sliver of happiness together with Uncle Krauss and Jessica. However, by Aunt Natsuhi's own doing, Uncle Krauss, and even her beloved daughter Jessica, had been heartlessly killed... It was even harder to believe that Grandfather had been an accomplice and hid the corpses... However, judging by the clear testimony given by several people who knew him, Grandfather's mental state for these last few years has been far from what anyone would consider normal. Perhaps, possessed by a mad devotion to the mistress he had lost long ago, Grandfather might truly have believed that Aunt Natsuhi was a reincarnation of Beatrice. Where is Grandfather now? Like Erika had theorized, did he really believe that he could revive Beatrice by carrying out murders following the epitaph, and succumb to Natsuhi's cajolery? Right now, is he holding some kind of disturbing ceremony with the bodies he carried away...?  Aunt Natsuhi sobbed as she spoke.  "...This is... your revenge, isn't it...? You, the man from 19 years ago...!!"This 'man from 19 years ago' that Aunt Natsuhi kept mentioning was supposedly someone who had caught her in some sort of trap. However, she had only mentioned that this man from 19 years ago existed, and she most certainly hadn't tried to explain what had happened 19 years ago...  "I'm sure, that man's underling is one among us here. I'm sure that right now, that man is ridiculing me through one of you..." "...Then tell me...! Are you happy now? Has a bit of that pain and suffering you've endured for 19 years gone away...?! I finally understand. The reason you've cornered me so far, is because, you wanted to make me acknowledge that, right...?" "...Natsuhi-san. Other than us, there's absolutely no one here. Please stop this insanely desperate charade and quit pretending that someone who doesn't exist actually does."Erika laughed mockingly, but, as Aunt Natsuhi looked at us... No, as she looked at some being behind us, she hung her head and shook. Then, she confessed to her sin.   Video: Natsuhi's Confession "So, you've finally acknowledged your crime directly." BGM: Discolor The adults all whispered together, wondering what this was about. Because they had never heard about a murder case 19 years ago. "N, 19 years ago, I, committed a sin. I couldn't forgive it. That, baby...!!" "Baby? Now what are you talking about?" "...On that day 19 years ago, Father entrusted me with a baby. Since I still couldn't bear a successor on my own, Father told me to adopt a child, and he made me hold a baby which he said had been brought here from an orphanage..." "Do you have any idea, how humiliating that was to me as a woman...?!"With a mix of conflicting emotions, of anger, sadness, regret and possibly defiance, Aunt Natsuhi confessed. The humiliation as a woman that she was no longer expected to bear a child. And also, the indescribably unpleasant feeling of being made to hold an unfamiliar baby. It caused her great sadness and rage, and before very many nights passed, it ate a hole into her heart...  ...It happened when I went on a walk through the rose garden to the harbor, along with a servant holding the baby... I wanted to be alone, but that female servant holding the baby faithfully followed me everywhere. I was unable even to tell her to stop following me, and therefore unable to escape from the child's crying... ...That day... marked the beginning of 19 long, headache-filled years...  If by taking that baby, and throwing it down onto the rocky beach far below me... I could undo it all... I really did listen to that demon's temptation.  The servant holding the baby stepped on a large rock, twisted her ankle, and staggered... She leaned against the rough fence, and at that time, I thought I heard the fence creak loudly. I told her to look out and tried to grab her shoulder.  The rough fence snapped from the base, and the servant, along with the baby held in her arms, fell down towards the rocky beach below... Even though... I remember that moment vividly, for some reason I recall a vague... and very strange feeling. It almost felt as though instead of falling, the two of them were silently swallowed up into empty space. So I didn't even hear the sound of them crashing to the rocky beach. No, I'm sure I heard it. But because I wanted to think that they'd disappeared, I must have erased that sound from my memory...  "For an instant, I thought it was a dream. It was high enough that I couldn't see the two of them below me just by leaning over. So I didn't know whether them falling... or the few seconds before that... had actually happened or not..."I must have been wishing that the child would fall from here so much that I just had a daydream... Trying to make myself believe this, I hurried back to the rose garden. Then I decided to let the servant take care of the baby, choosing to take a rest alone in the garden... ...Then, Father asked what had happened to the baby, And an uproar began over the disappearance of the servant who had been in charge of the baby... Eventually, the broken fence was discovered, and the two corpses were found at the bottom of the cliff... The child had been here for reasons that couldn't become known, so its existence was hushed up, and the official story was that the servant had had an accident on her own and died. That's right. I... stole away two innocent lives in one go... As for the poor servant... her family was graciously compensated. Her aged husband, who didn't know the truth, accepted this even though he grieved over the unfortunate accident. Then, just a few years ago, he died of old age, and I confessed the truth over his grave, apologizing.   "So right here, right now, I'll confess to my crime! I, Ushiromiya Natsuhi, did 19 years ago... push you off a cliff... and try to kill you..."...But... you didn't die, did you... You're still alive... and you still call me 'Mother'... ...You came to this island, and took your revenge on me, didn't you... For these 19 years... You knew that the one you should have called your mother pushed you off a cliff, and you must have lived a very hate-filled life... "...And now, you've taken everything I've gained since pushing you off that cliff, 18 years of my life, and smashed it all to pieces... I no longer have my beloved husband and daughter. And I've lost even my honor, and am being called a murderer... No, I really am a murderer, aren't I... Yes, that's right. It all went according to your plans. I'm now regarded as a killer..." "...How's that...? Is this enough... for your revenge...? My husband and daughter have been killed!! I've been made to look like a murderer... like an adulteress even... After seeing me living in disgrace like this. Are you satisfied...?! Yes, I'll bet you're quite satisfied... Because my family... my honor... everything... has been stolen from me... Ooohh, *hic* gaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!" "...After all this, do you still claim that you were framed? Seriously, you just don't know when to give up." "Can you hear me?! You, the cursed child from 19 years ago...!! Are you satisfied now?! You've stolen everything from me now!! What else could you want?! Please... just... forgive me..." BGM: None "Huh...?" "...Battler-san, did you say something?" "...B, Battler... ku... n...?" BGM: Solitary Deep Sea Fish    
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Apr 19, 2017 13:43
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CottonWolf posted:Just to add to this, any red is still objectively true, human or witch side, it's just not admissible unless you're a witch. Because witches are horrible cheaters. Yeah. If the truth isn't valid, it flat out can't be said as proven in ep 4 with the semantics between valid red Ushiromiya Battler is Ushiromiya Asumu's son versus invalid red truth "Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu". Battler said it without any problems; it is still true. It wasn't accepted because the trial is entirely rigged to implicate Natsuhi, who was already seen as guilty until proven innocent. EDIT: Well that sure was an update. KataraniSword fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 13:44
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"...Wanna try complaining about the rules and stepping down from the game? Isn't that the favorite move of you mystery people♪ If there's even a tiny element that goes against your expectations, you have a tantrum and totally stop thinking." Or I could get someone who knows the Real Truth not red or blue and have them tell everything. As fun as hoping to see where the twists and turns lead to, if things are going to be like that then why not ruin the game for the witches. The problem is this while others may just wait but if things to too angry and both sides of real people attacking each other which they already started doing. Why not just follow the anti-mystery group and just tell all right now?
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Apr 19, 2017 14:10
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So, here's another way Natsuhi is lovely: actually killed at least one person! I mean, it's definitely an in-the-moment kind of thing, but murdering an adult as a means of murdering a baby you don't want to take care of is about as bad as it gets. I admit I hadn't figured that she'd done it on purpose. That would make it more likely that others would take the baby away instead of giving him back to her, though.tiistai posted:Shame on you, anyone who even thought she might have been. Nappi would never kill anyone. Man, I'm glad we didn't fall for this. Tender Child Loins posted:Yeah, YouTube link is a no-go in Mexico as well, if anyone's counting. Really awesome montage with the lyrics though! I haven't seen the anime but it looks DEEN as gently caress. Yeah, I expect it won't work anywhere. I probably have a reasonable fair use case, but I'm not going to court over a lovely AMV, and I doubt a lot of folks are going to want to bother to pull it out of a zip on google drive. Ah, well. I'll have to languish in obscurity. 
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Apr 19, 2017 14:25
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I thought the fall was a genuine accident too... But something extra's going on with it. There's no way that Natsuhi just didn't hear the thud as the corpses hit the ground. Here's a theory: Somehow the fall of the servant was broken, perhaps by vegetation on the cliff, or a rocky outcrop, and they hit the ground lightly, not dying on impact. The servant was murdered secondarily and the child hidden away. A corpse of another child was provided to act as the fake corpse of Natsuhi's baby. tiistai posted:Shame on you, anyone who even thought she might have been. Nappi would never kill anyone. I should have known better than to trust the witches from witch chat. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 14:29
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KataraniSword posted:Yeah. If the truth isn't valid, it flat out can't be said as proven in ep 4 with the semantics between valid red Ushiromiya Battler is Ushiromiya Asumu's son versus invalid red truth "Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu". It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born was fine. The red Battler couldn't say was "It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that I was born". idonotlikepeas posted:Man, I'm glad we didn't fall for this. lol e: Oh yeah, Cyouni gets the Bernkastel award for figuring out how Natsuhi fled the murder scene. Good job. tiistai fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 14:38
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Who could have predicted that the abused and harassed Umineko character would snap and escalate!?
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Apr 19, 2017 14:39
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This isn't the end of game 5, right?
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Apr 19, 2017 14:53
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There's a tea party and ??? as always.
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Apr 19, 2017 14:56
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Rodyle posted:There's a tea party and ??? as always. Ah. Then maybe getting impaled had helped Battler some.
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Apr 19, 2017 15:01
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tiistai posted:
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Apr 19, 2017 15:10
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how many people had died from cliffs now? Three? I feel like the Japanese shrine might be a future plot point. It seemed way too mysterious to be just used as a power limiter for Beatrice.
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Apr 19, 2017 15:11
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tiistai posted:e: Oh yeah, Cyouni gets the Bernkastel award for figuring out how Natsuhi fled the murder scene. Good job. Did you miss when I told Cyouni how Natsuhi could kill Rosa and get away from the murder scene?
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Apr 19, 2017 16:48
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First we had Rosa reveal she saw a person fall down a cliff and die. Now we have Natsuhi push two people down a cliff and maybe die. Ushiromiyas have the worst hobbies. So, speculation! Either the baby died or it didn't. If it died, the person on the phone knows about it, despite the cover up. How good would such a cover up be? You'd have to think a new baby would excite comment, and servants, even if told to forget it, must have gossiped privately afterwards, especially after the death of one of their own. It was a long time ago, but some of the servants have been around that long. We're directly told Kawasuma was, for one (you know, she probably could solve all the mysteries) and we've seen she likes to talk. So, somebody modern obtaining the information to make that call isn't very hard. Who would make it? Somebody who doesn't like Natsuhi, of course. Eva would be delighted to set it up and torment her. So this is possible, though it doesn't seem all that great to me. If the baby didn't die, then the cover up included lying to Natsuhi. No problem for Kinzo, especially if he suspected the accident was no accident. But it also means that Kinzo took the fall as reason to give up his plan to raise the baby as his heir, and it's hard to see iron willed Kinzo giving up on something so easily. Let that go for now. If the baby lived, and matters for the story, they're somebody in our cast. Based on age being close enough to fake, it could be Battler, Jessica, or maybe Shannon or Kanon, though you have to really twist the ages of the two servants; people change a lot, if unpredictably, between 16 and 19. Could it be Jessica? Seems unlikely, as we have Natsuhi's private thoughts that she was pregnant with Jessica shortly afterwards, and why would she lie to herself? Well, she also has conversations with witches, so maybe she does. Maybe the baby lived, Natsuhi was forced to accept it, and she's living in a fantasy land where she gave birth. But now the caller has no reason to call - Jessica is treated as her child and the family heir. We're left with no caller motivation and Jessica living with a fake age for no reason. Could it be Shannon or Kanon? Again, moving the age by that much is shaky, but it might be possible. Then after the fall Kinzo gives up on this scheme and tells somebody to take the baby away. They take it to the orphanage the family supports (do we know when the family started supporting that orphanage?). It then grows up as a normal boy/girl and get assigned as a servant back to the house. At some point they find out they could have been the heir. This is the scenario that gives the caller the best motivation, but the early part is shaky. Why tell Natsuhi the baby is dead? Why does Kinzo give up his plan? Surely not because he was traumatized by the death of a servant. There's also no reason to have them pretending to be three years younger than they really are. Could it be Battler? Yea, here's the can of worms. The age is off, but by less than the age is off for the other candidates. We've been speculating, to the point that it's more or less assumed, that Battler is Kyrie's child. In that case, Kinzo didn't get some random baby, he got his illegitimate grandchild and told Natsuhi to raise it has her own. This makes a lot more sense than the other scenarios. When the fall happens, Kinzo gives up on his plan, suspecting Natsuhi and not willing to give her a second chance at his grandchild. Now, if Battler is the baby, could he be behind the calls? Normally I'd be reluctant to even consider this, but as Prof pointed out, we don't have Knox's viewpoint rule. And for this arc in particular, meta Battler showed up late and hasn't been controlling his own piece, doesn't even know what it's been doing. If he had been in control, he's not the heir now. This could explain why the calls only happen in this arc. Somebody with more knowledge of the past than Battler now controls his piece and is making it do things he didn't. The Battler we know wouldn't make the calls, but the Battler piece under a witch's control would, especially as this was the torture Natsuhi episode. No matter what the outcome, Kinzo's behavior needs some explaining. He had George as an heir already. Was five year old George showing some problem that had to have him replaced? Was one grandchild not enough? Did the heir have to come from Krauss' line? Or, and this is the reason I like the Battler theory, was the grandchild really his and needed a place to be raised? That makes a lot more sense to me than the alternatives. If baby-is-Battler is correct, then his early life was convoluted. First, he's born Rudolf and Kyrie's illegitimate child (under a different name). Kinzo takes him and gives him to Natsuhi, telling her to raise him as her own, effectively legitimizing him. That lasts for all of one morning. After the servant dies, Kinzo suspects Natsuhi is behind the accident, has her told the baby was dead, and spirits him away to somewhere unknown. Let's say the orphanage or the secret mansion. Then Rudolf's and Asumu's child, named Battler on the birth certificate, dies. Kinzo sees another way to get the illegitimate heir involved, and the our Battler is subbed in for the dead one. Who knows the truth? Rudolf does, since he said he had to talk to Battler about his parentage. Kinzo did, since he arranged it. Maybe some of the servants did, particularly the older and more trusted ones. Does Kyrie? She seems to think her child is dead. It could happen: her family are aristocrats and presumably went into fits when she turned up pregnant. They probably confine her, to hide the pregnancy, and take the baby away when it's born, then tell her it died. Kinzo gets the baby and away we go. It does require that Rudolf doesn't tell Kyrie what happened to their child, which seems a stretch. While I like this theory, the timeline may not snap into place, particularly the timing of the two pregnancies. I should really reread everything to make sure, but I should also really get to work. I should also really consider the possibility that Battler is the baby, but not Kyrie's child. In that case, I don't see who's child he is (Rudolf and yet another woman?) and by God we've already got enough characters running around without introducing a new secret mother.
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Apr 19, 2017 16:57
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Ok, that whole case synopsis was so ridiculous I have to imagine there's something more going on here. Something like Episode 5:Beatrice::Rosa's Thanksgiving:Battler Come on, meta-Beatrice, get pissed off enough at this loving farce of a game to stand up and kick that corrupt judge out your seat. e: BurningStone posted:I should also really consider the possibility that Battler is the baby, but not Kyrie's child. In that case, I don't see who's child he is (Rudolf and yet another woman?) and by God we've already got enough characters running around without introducing a new secret mother. You know, if cliff baby were 1967-Beatrice's son, Kinzo would be both the father and the grandfather... 
ZiegeDame fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 17:02
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ZiegeDame posted:
I wouldn't put it past him. indeed
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Apr 19, 2017 17:27
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Well uh at least this episode has a good ending for Ange as her family lived.
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Apr 19, 2017 17:33
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Did that baby really buy the farm? Is Battler's daddy really Kinzo? Will Erika steal the protagonist seat this long? Can Battler out stupid himself any harder? The answer to maybe 1 or 2 of these questions will be answered, if we're lucky, on Wednesday Wednesday Wednesday! Tickets for only $10! Figure out new ways to brutally murder your own family and keep your sex dungeon a secret! Kids tickets for only $5!
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Apr 19, 2017 17:34
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BurningStone posted:Could it be Shannon or Kanon? Again, moving the age by that much is shaky, but it might be possible. Then after the fall Kinzo gives up on this scheme and tells somebody to take the baby away. They take it to the orphanage the family supports (do we know when the family started supporting that orphanage?). It then grows up as a normal boy/girl and get assigned as a servant back to the house. At some point they find out they could have been the heir. This is the scenario that gives the caller the best motivation, but the early part is shaky. Why tell Natsuhi the baby is dead? Why does Kinzo give up his plan? Surely not because he was traumatized by the death of a servant. There's also no reason to have them pretending to be three years younger than they really are. Kinzo isn't a drat fool: we know from the red that he never actually trusted Natushi, and suspecting her of trying to kill a baby is a drat good reason to hide it somewhere away from her. BurningStone posted:Could it be Battler? Yea, here's the can of worms. The age is off, but by less than the age is off for the other candidates. We've been speculating, to the point that it's more or less assumed, that Battler is Kyrie's child. In that case, Kinzo didn't get some random baby, he got his illegitimate grandchild and told Natsuhi to raise it has her own. This makes a lot more sense than the other scenarios. When the fall happens, Kinzo gives up on his plan, suspecting Natsuhi and not willing to give her a second chance at his grandchild. I haven't checked the timeframe, but at least this is coherent. Realistically though, it's hard to imagine Kinzo going through all this effort for someone other than himself: he'd probably just demand that the kid be made a servant by way of the orphanage, which is probably what Rudolf and Kyrie were actively trying to avoid. ZiegeDame posted:You know, if cliff baby were 1967-Beatrice's son, Kinzo would be both the father and the grandfather... This is Kinzo here; assuming he's creepy and bonkers is depressingly appropriate. Throw this in with the fact that he would almost certainly consider an incest baby to be the perfect heir, and we have a good idea of what Kinzo's reasoning for all this is. Better yet, a hidden incest baby is also a pretty good explanation for why the murderer would consider all this crazy poo poo to be an act of love. -- Also: "Afterwards, she went to the so-called 'cousin room' on the second floor of the guesthouse, waited for Rosa to join the rest, and killed George, Jessica, Maria, and Rosa. She damaged the necks of those corpses. Afterwards, because there were people in the lounge on the first floor, she waited in an empty room on the second floor." I could swear that it was said that the corpses weren't manipulated after their deaths; and this doesn't say that they were killed *by* the damage to their necks, but rather that they were killed before their necks were damaged. Erika's going to be in for a nasty shock if she really doesn't think that those "corpses" aren't the keystone of the entire mystery...
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Apr 19, 2017 17:36
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A thing I didn't consider is the family of the servant who died. So we have two people here: cliff-baby and servant-family. Cliff-baby has a possibility of being anyone of the same general age, so Jessica and Battler are the main suspects there. Let's assume mystery caller part 2 is the one behind the set of murders. If so, it can't be Jessica unless Nanjo is also in on it. It remains possible for Battler. Now, what about any possible children the servant may have had? The husband was described as aged, so I'll take that to mean he was quite old. Given relative ages, it can't be Kumasawa or Genji. Similarly, unlikely to be Shannon or Kanon. We know Kyrie, Natsuhi, Rudolf, Krauss, and Eva's parentage. Rosa, Hideyoshi, and the cousins are dead. Gohda remains a possibility. So let's say we have Battler or Gohda. The crime is equally possible for both, though I really have no idea regarding Hideyoshi right now. Everyone seems to have an alibi for that save Natsuhi (and the dead), but again there must be something I'm missing. Edit: I should also point out that Ange knew of Battler's parentage, meaning she must have been told by either Rudolf or Kyrie prior to their deaths. whitehelm posted:Did you miss when I told Cyouni how Natsuhi could kill Rosa and get away from the murder scene? Yeah, that definitely was the missing piece that was necessary. I originally assumed that their case was that Natsuhi also fled at that time, but didn't consider that all that was needed for that was Natsuhi's entrance at that point, because no one had an alibi past 1:00 anyways, while anyone could have left past 3:00. BurningStone posted:First we had Rosa reveal she saw a person fall down a cliff and die. Now we have Natsuhi push two people down a cliff and maybe die. Ushiromiyas have the worst hobbies. So, speculation! I'm 100% waiting for Eva or Kyrie to physically throw three people off that cliff, given the escalation we're seeing. Cyouni fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 17:45
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Wow, that voice acting. And drat, I only just recognized the fact that Natsuhi and OG Sailor Jupiter have the same actress! (And hairstyle?) I can be dense sometimes. But that's so good. Natsuhi's confession certainly confirmed a few thoughts I had about what was going on with Kinzo's reaction to the news, adding more to the pile of clues about who Beatrice really is. I'm looking forward to the Tea Party to elaborate some more on this. And while it makes for entertaining reading, I'm not sure if there's much weight to the Battler/Jessica = cliff baby theory, considering their behavior this episode. Why would Battler fight so hard to defend Natsuhi and literally jump out of a third story window on her behalf? Why would Jessica pitch a shitfit over Erika implying the succession could go to the solver of the epitaph?
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Apr 19, 2017 18:07
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Tender Child Loins posted:And while it makes for entertaining reading, I'm not sure if there's much weight to the Battler/Jessica = cliff baby theory, considering their behavior this episode. Why would Battler fight so hard to defend Natsuhi and literally jump out of a third story window on her behalf? Why would Jessica pitch a shitfit over Erika implying the succession could go to the solver of the epitaph? Battler wants her to either confess, or blame Kinzo/Krauss for the murders: she either admits her sin but protects the family honor (she isn't blood related, after all), or she pushes the blame onto the family who's honor she's been so desperate to protect all this time. Either way, her life is ruined.
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Apr 19, 2017 18:15
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Ye gods... Really? Battler is Cliff Baby? And Natsuhi pushed him off lo these many years ago, and now comes to take his revenge? That makes no sense. There was not a whisper of any secret motivation in any of the previous games on his part; this whole take revenge on Natsuhi thing is only really pursued in this game. So he can't be Cliff Baby... but he had the voice of Cliff Baby? And why wouldn't Cliff Baby say anything now? But how wer the calls made then? But he stopped Erika from discovering Natsuhi later, so he has to be, but he cant be and oh god  Deep breath. Step back. Is it possible for Battler to be Cliff Baby? Yes, I suppose it is; the time frame for his birth is off, but so what- the ages of all of these guys has been funny from the beginning, and nothing has been confirmed in red. And he does have the undisclosed thing about his birth that Rudolph keeps hinting at; we think that Kyrie actually had Battler but that's mostly supposition on our part, all that has been confirmed in red is that Battler is not Asumu's child. So could he have been secretly given to Rudolph by Kinzo after his fall? Maybe. And it was awfully convenient of him to stay behind and stop Erika from searching that wardrobe that time, isn't it- almost as if he knew. But even with all that... how did Battler find out, and why didn't he mention this as a pretext once during the previous four games? There was not an inkling of a hint that Battler at all had it out for his aunt on the previous outing, and he had tons of opportunities to increase her suffering- or make those calls- before game 5. I know detective authority has been introduced only fairly recently, but Battler was more or less our viewpoint character for the first game, and the one we designated as a detective, even if the game technically didn't. So for a bombshell like this to be true about him feels... cheap, and a direct contradiction to Knox's 8th (and leaning more than a little on the 7th as well.) The same problem covers Jessica, who fits the timeframe much better than George does: her feelings about her mother are complicated, true, but there has been nothing to suggest that she would take part, or helm, any effort to frame or humiliate her in this fashion (besides, she's kind of dead at the moment.) This leads me to the conclusion that whoever Cliff Baby is, Battler isn't it. But his outburst at the end here indicates that he was, at least involved... and very possibly could have made the calls on Cliff Baby's behalf. Which means- sorry, CottonWolf  - that I must once again drag out the "conspiracy" drum, because once again, it's the only way I can see how everything works.Because, if Battler is an accomplice- and I believe that he is- then according to Knox's 9th, his viewpoint cannot be trusted. This allowed him to see Kinzo out during the storm, a man said in red to be dead at the start of every game*, allowed him to see the six corpses of the first twilight as dead without examining the, and allowed the whole "mysterious letter with the ring" thing to happen as the game told it... but not how it probably actually happened. Nothing that has happened from his viewpoint can be trusted now... which opens up a lot of options. For example, Battler could have made the calls himself, and the second one he made could have been taken straight from the dining room, with most of the family present, as I hypothesized before. Which in turn... leads me to suspect Kanon as the real Cliff Baby. He has the animosity toward Natsuhi, and he could have been wherever he needed to be... maybe after Battler found the gold, he came to him with the story of being thrown off, and got him on their side that way. *SPEAKING of which, o game, don't think I didn't notice that even the credits don't attempt to deny this. Leaving a Kinzo simultaneously dead and a randy old bastard who hides corpses and has it with daughter-in-laws. This is your fault, Battler. e: ZiegeDame posted:You know, if cliff baby were 1967-Beatrice's son, Kinzo would be both the father and the grandfather... Why, ZiegeDame. Why are you making a weird, gross situation even more weird and gross. Why. Why would you do that. resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 18:19
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resurgam40 posted:This leads me to the conclusion that whoever Cliff Baby is, Battler isn't it. But his outburst at the end here indicates that he was, at least involved... and very possibly could have made the calls on Cliff Baby's behalf. Which means- sorry, CottonWolf Battler cannot be the caller. Let's dispense with this now. Unless everyone in the dining room was in on it, Battler has an alibi for the time the calls were made.
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Apr 19, 2017 18:33
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A conspiracy to get Natsuhi to admit to what happened 19 years ago. No matter what the cost, at least for one of the group.
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Apr 19, 2017 18:32
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