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Kenny Logins posted:I think as far as overall representation it's good and doesn't need to be any more dramatic or emphatic than it was. On the other hand, it almost seems a little blasé in a campaign with advanced magic/sci fi, not to mention a system/setting that's had a magic belt that switches people's genders in it for like 40 years. The reveal of that seemed a bit odd to me tone-wise when I first listened to it. I wonder how much the recent Chalupa business played a part in things.
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Apr 19, 2017 06:34
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Serf posted:Who even takes the time to warm up a poptart I used to eat two or three sleeves a day straight out of the box in college until I finally bothered to look at the nutrition info for a single pastry. Haven't had a single one since
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Apr 19, 2017 08:01
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Better or worse than just eating cardboard?
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Apr 19, 2017 09:30
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Put them in the toaster you animals
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Apr 19, 2017 10:07
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i don't think i saw an actual toaster that wasn't on tv until i was in my late teens
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Apr 19, 2017 11:23
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Warbird posted:The reveal of that seemed a bit odd to me tone-wise when I first listened to it. I wonder how much the recent Chalupa business played a part in things. And some trans friends of mine have remarked that parts of it aren't very well thought out, which really makes me think this was a recent development in Griffo's plans.
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Apr 19, 2017 12:23
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Warbird posted:The reveal of that seemed a bit odd to me tone-wise when I first listened to it. I wonder how much the recent Chalupa business played a part in things. It's kind of a tough needle to thread. I think back to Baldur's Gate 2's "Edwina" and wince.
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Apr 19, 2017 13:13
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PostNouveau posted:Put them in the toaster you animals Unless you get the s'mores flavor, which are much better frozen.
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Apr 19, 2017 13:44
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Chocolate peanut butter pop tarts are god's gift to man
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Apr 19, 2017 13:51
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Waffleman_ posted:And some trans friends of mine have remarked that parts of it aren't very well thought out, which really makes me think this was a recent development in Griffo's plans.
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Apr 19, 2017 14:05
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Just some things with her name still doing a cute twin thing with Taako even though many people choose a name very different from their dead name and another person showing a bit of discomfort with another cis person portraying a trans character. Like, yes, it's an inevitability with the people we have and they admitted they'd be fine with it in a vacuum, but they were just weary after a bunch of other things (they're also Asian, and you know how that's been lately)
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Apr 19, 2017 14:40
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Well the Taako/Chalupa thing is officially non canon now, so maybe her deadname was actually Naachos or something and she picked Lup for a completely unrelated reason.
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Apr 19, 2017 14:52
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Stroop There It Is posted:Like what? I'm trans and have zero problems with it. Like I said, the introduction was slightly awkward but beyond that it's been fine. Yeah, I felt like the intro was an effort to deliberately downplay it as a Big Deal, which is nice.
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Apr 19, 2017 15:09
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Waffleman_ posted:Just some things with her name still doing a cute twin thing with Taako even though many people choose a name very different from their dead name and another person showing a bit of discomfort with another cis person portraying a trans character. Like, yes, it's an inevitability with the people we have and they admitted they'd be fine with it in a vacuum, but they were just weary after a bunch of other things (they're also Asian, and you know how that's been lately)  Also, since she transitioned super young, it's not like her name necessarily has the same baggage as if she associated that with years of being misgendered/dysphoria like deadname usually implies. I also am one of those people who is totally fine with cis people playing trans people in all sorts of media as long as it's respectful and they consult trans people to make sure of that. I definitely trust the bros to handle it well (and to respond appropriately if they make mistakes), and I honestly appreciate the representation (and what Poque said, making it not a big deal, but still present, is also nice).But I can definitely see why they'd be wary of stuff like this, and those criticisms are fair--I just happen to disagree. 
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Apr 19, 2017 15:56
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Stroop There It Is posted:I mean... it's a gender neutral name and plenty of trans people will keep those? i can understand why someone would be all ready for things to turn sour, i know i often get that when whenever i hear a piece of media includes a trans person. it's usually a pretty safe bet! so why get your hopes up!! having also listened to Justin talk about it on Interrobang though, i feel confident enough to give them the benefit of the doubt on this, and really the route they've gone so far seems like the best possible way they could of done things, imo?
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Apr 19, 2017 16:18
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Would it have been better if Lup being trans was something known only between Justin and Griffin, i.e.: a secret that Taako keeps that doesn't inherently impact her actions as a character, but might be something revealed at a later time to Magnus or Merle? I'm so far removed from stuff like this that I'm not sure what'd be good, but I feel like just bluntly announcing it at the top of her introduction can feel like it might be a bit pandering.
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Apr 19, 2017 16:26
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SpacePig posted:Would it have been better if Lup being trans was something known only between Justin and Griffin, i.e.: a secret that Taako keeps that doesn't inherently impact her actions as a character, but might be something revealed at a later time to Magnus or Merle? I'm so far removed from stuff like this that I'm not sure what'd be good, but I feel like just bluntly announcing it at the top of her introduction can feel like it might be a bit pandering. Again, representation and normalizing are good and important but also narratively if the rest of the story isn't really altered by a particular called out detail it tends to feel like a checked box or else just extraneous. There's always going to be that tension between goals when telling (progressive) stories. I think the tough part with this, is that this kind of representation isn't well done by an NPC which by definition is a walking collection of keywords. If it was coming from a PC it would have a lot more potential to be interesting/meaningful although there are pitfalls there too.
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Apr 19, 2017 16:41
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It also doesn't help that She's just Taako, but a little more aggressive. Like similarities are one thing but really so far it's just been "Well she's basically you, Taako, because I wanna do the silly voice, but she's trans except I dunno what that's like so it's not really going to inform her character at all so she's basically you, Taako."
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Apr 19, 2017 16:58
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SpacePig posted:Would it have been better if Lup being trans was something known only between Justin and Griffin, i.e.: a secret that Taako keeps that doesn't inherently impact her actions as a character, but might be something revealed at a later time to Magnus or Merle? I'm so far removed from stuff like this that I'm not sure what'd be good, but I feel like just bluntly announcing it at the top of her introduction can feel like it might be a bit pandering.
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Apr 19, 2017 17:01
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Arsenic Lupin posted:No, because "Surprise! This character retroactively turned out to be GLBT!" is a trope everybody is sick of. Furthermore, Taako keeping Lup's transition secret inherently implies there's something to be ashamed of about it. yeah, that trope, especially in the context of being about a trans woman is loving awful and i hate it
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Apr 19, 2017 17:03
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it's not Taako's decision to make though
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Apr 19, 2017 17:04
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Poque posted:it's not Taako's decision to make though
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Apr 19, 2017 17:08
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It probably (out of canon) went something like "Taako, why did you say you and Lup were identical twins? You're different sexes!" "Boy, humans really ARE primitive." e: Kenny Logins posted:That was kind of aggravating when Justin asked if he could control/make decisions about Lup and Griffin really pulled hard and to the left away from that.
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Apr 19, 2017 17:08
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Lup is an NPC and probably has some knowledge Taako/Justin doesn't. Lup and Taako being twins doesn't mean they're the same character as far as playing goes. I'm not really sure, given where things have started, that Lup would have all that much different knowledge that Taako doesn't. Even if she did, Lucretia would be a better choice for that kind of thing, since she has already been doing that.
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Apr 19, 2017 17:13
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Kenny Logins posted:Maybe, but I trust that Justin would do better work at differentiating the two because he would get bored effectively saying everything twice, where Griffin is probably just having fun Being Taako Also.
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Apr 19, 2017 17:14
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We're also talking about a fantasy world where the process of transitioning is probably like "drink some potions" or "go talk to this wizard who's good at that stuff" so like all the prejudice and misgendering almost certainly wouldn't happen because nobody would be able to tell she was assigned differently at birth, which makes it a little flippant, almost, but otherwise it would realistically never come up at all.
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Apr 19, 2017 17:15
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i'm just more then happy to have them side-step most of that stuff i really don't need to hear a bunch of straight cis-guys repeatedly stumble through a yard of rakes while blindfolded
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Apr 19, 2017 17:18
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Lucretia doesn't have knowledge of whatever caused Lup's death, and judging by the corpse's position she died alone. purple death ray posted:We're also talking about a fantasy world where the process of transitioning is probably like "drink some potions" or "go talk to this wizard who's good at that stuff" so like all the prejudice and misgendering almost certainly wouldn't happen because nobody would be able to tell she was assigned differently at birth, which makes it a little flippant, almost, but otherwise it would realistically never come up at all. There's also the unfortunate adjacent trope of "special snowflake dragon masquerading as a human/elf/whatever" that doesn't help matters.
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Apr 19, 2017 17:19
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Kenny Logins posted:Do we know for a fact that she doesn't?
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Apr 19, 2017 17:25
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I think it might wind up being relevant if they turn out to be identical twins. Who knows, could Taako use one of those pod things to make a body that her soul could jump into out of the umbrella, or something?
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Apr 19, 2017 17:26
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True Polymorph lets you permanently change yourself into anything else and could easily switch your sex, but this is some real nerd conversation. The point is, yes, it's probably not as difficult a process and could be done early. As I understand it everyone is different with regards to dead names. I've known trans people who just take the feminine or masculine versions of their previous name, and I know others who will never say their dead name. Depends on experience. The only thing that bothered me, which even then only bothered me just a little because even I just learned this recently, is when talking about Lup in the past they said "we'll say all of this was after transition so we can keep the same pronouns" but you can retroactively use preferred pronouns now for things that happened then even if they weren't out. A super minor thing that they dealt with in the intro, but otherwise it's been fine.
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Apr 19, 2017 17:30
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Arsenic Lupin posted:We're one episode into the new arc. We don't know anything for a fact; we're speculating. I can't think of a reason Lucretia would know the full circumstances of Lup's death unless Lucretia was watching live through a fantasy videowatch or equivalent. I guess that particular bit of knowledge doesn't seem to me to be that relevant to the play of the "flashback" since I always figured Griffin would pull on of those non-diagetic "we see" cutscenes to explain missing sequences such as that.
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Apr 19, 2017 17:30
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If it has no plot relevance at all I think it's a great and well-meaning gesture that was delivered awkwardly; if it does wind up being plot relevant then christ I hope Griffin doesn't wang this one up because there are a LOT of ways to mishandle trans characters while thinking you're doing a great job of representation. I do trust these guys to be sensitive and do their research and make a serious effort to be as inclusive as possible and I think that's wonderful, but at the end of the day they ARE three white cis dudes and sometimes they drop the ball. Honestly the fact that they go to such lengths to be inclusive makes it MORE likely that they will make the occasional misstep, because they're trying more things and because a lot of their fans have come to expect them to handle those things well. So if this Lup thing does wind up being somehow cringeworthy, it'll be a shame, but I'm glad they're making the effort regardless, because seriously, how many trans characters from popular media can you name where that's not the most important or even third or forth most important thing about them?
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Apr 19, 2017 17:32
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Kenny Logins posted:The other logical choice would be that Barry eventually found out, or finds out. I hope to christ this doesn't happen because the last thing I need to see is yet another trans panic storyline, ughhhh. Regardless of anything else that goes down with Lup, Barry either better already know or his finding out better not happen even vaguely adjacent to the plot no matter how well he takes it showbiz_liz fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 17:33
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showbiz_liz posted:if it does wind up being plot relevant then christ I hope Griffin doesn't wang this one up because there are a LOT of ways to mishandle trans characters while thinking you're doing a great job of representation. I do trust these guys to be sensitive and do their research and make a serious effort to be as inclusive as possible and I think that's wonderful, but at the end of the day they ARE three white cis dudes and sometimes they drop the ball. They talked in the latest TTAZZ about the issues they had when overusing tropes with Hurley and Sloane's relationship so hopefully they recognize what they are getting into. I expect it won't be plot relevant.
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Apr 19, 2017 17:34
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showbiz_liz posted:I hope to christ this doesn't happen because the last thing I need to see is yet another trans panic storyline, ughhhh Not finds out she's trans, finds out how she died.
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Apr 19, 2017 17:34
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showbiz_liz posted:I hope to christ this doesn't happen because the last thing I need to see is yet another trans panic storyline, ughhhh
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Apr 19, 2017 17:35
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Oh, sorry!
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Apr 19, 2017 17:36
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showbiz_liz posted:If it has no plot relevance at all I think it's a great and well-meaning gesture that was delivered awkwardly; if it does wind up being plot relevant then christ I hope Griffin doesn't wang this one up because there are a LOT of ways to mishandle trans characters while thinking you're doing a great job of representation. I do trust these guys to be sensitive and do their research and make a serious effort to be as inclusive as possible and I think that's wonderful, but at the end of the day they ARE three white cis dudes and sometimes they drop the ball.
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Apr 19, 2017 17:39
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Serf posted:Who even takes the time to warm up a poptart  well how the hell else would you melt the cheese
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Apr 19, 2017 17:43
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