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whitehelm posted:Did you miss when I told Cyouni how Natsuhi could kill Rosa and get away from the murder scene? I did, sorry about that. Still, it's a pretty dubious honor to want credit for. 
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Apr 19, 2017 18:36
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resurgam40 posted:Why, ZiegeDame. Why are you making a weird, gross situation even more weird and gross. Why. Why would you do that. Do not turn away from the truth resurgam, no matter how unpleasant it may be.
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Apr 19, 2017 18:40
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Cyouni posted:Battler cannot be the caller. Let's dispense with this now. Unless everyone in the dining room was in on it, Battler has an alibi for the time the calls were made. He doesn't need to be the caller: he only needs to have the call orchestrated. Besides that, there isn't anything suspicious about using a phone to begin with, so this really isn't a case where an alibi is even needed; especially since Natushi was the only person to ever actually hear the conversation, and so is the only person who could claim it was threatening to begin with. thetruegentleman fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 18:48
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Cyouni posted:Battler cannot be the caller. Let's dispense with this now. Unless everyone in the dining room was in on it, Battler has an alibi for the time the calls were made. And why, pray tell, couldn't the rest of the dining room have been in on it? Remember, Erika's ridiculous God Mode only covers where she is at the time, and she was only present for the finding of the gold, but not for anything after. And the last thing she witnessed is an argument between Natsuhi and everyone else about the successorship; everyone's feelings about Natsuhi took a dip there, and this is in addition to all of the doubts surrounding Krauss' embezzlement and the conspiracy the other siblings had going on. So is it so hard to believe that there was a plan to at least make Natsuhi sweat, even if the murders were not especially planned? Eva and Kyrie both had investigators going over the past of their eldest sibling and pretty much everyone else in the family is smarter than Krauss and Kyrie... Hypothesis: Cliff Baby came to relatives after Battler found the gold with an idea on how to get Krauss/Natsuhi to confess embezzlement, and told the story about the baby. Then, once Natsuhi leaves, everyone hatches a plan to have Battler pretend to be Cliff Baby and call her... maybe they went as far as to plan to fake the murders in the first twilight as well. Remember, Erika didn't examine those bodies when they first showed up. Maybe they really did get up and walk away, and were subsequently killed. Could even have been that Hideyoshi's murder was meant to be faked too, only that one turned out real.
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Apr 19, 2017 18:54
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thetruegentleman posted:He doesn't need to be the caller: he only needs to have the call orchestrated. Besides that, there isn't anything suspicious about using a phone to begin with, so this really isn't a case where an alibi is even needed; especially since Natushi was the only person to ever actually hear the conversation, and so is the only person who could claim it was threatening to begin with. If my theory about the caller being Krauss is correct, then Battler as a secondary medium is not required. Normally, I'd say using a phone isn't suspicious...but anyone overhearing that would get instantly suspicious, and only those Genji, Natsuhi, and Krauss left the room before 1:00. This is backed by the red. Lines like... ProfessorProf posted:
That would sound pretty suspicious to anyone else in the same room. resurgam40 posted:And why, pray tell, couldn't the rest of the dining room have been in on it? Remember, Erika's ridiculous God Mode only covers where she is at the time, and she was only present for the finding of the gold, but not for anything after. And the last thing she witnessed is an argument between Natsuhi and everyone else about the successorship; everyone's feelings about Natsuhi took a dip there, and this is in addition to all of the doubts surrounding Krauss' embezzlement and the conspiracy the other siblings had going on. So is it so hard to believe that there was a plan to at least make Natsuhi sweat, even if the murders were not especially planned? Eva and Kyrie both had investigators going over the past of their eldest sibling and pretty much everyone else in the family is smarter than Krauss and Kyrie... I did consider this for a bit, but then I also realized there was another call. Somewhere around the time Natsuhi woke up and had Genji's death reported to her, the mystery caller called Natsuhi and had her hear Krauss's voice. Unless there was some weird time where Battler managed to vanish during the cousins' body investigation, that's not possible for him. It's also not possible before that, because Intellectual Rapist Wall Spider. Now, this doesn't exclude anyone else in the same room from being in on this hypothetical plan, but Battler is definitely out. Edit: Also, Erika didn't examine them, but Nanjo did. Also this hypothetical conspiracy would have to include Shannon and Kanon. Cyouni fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 18:59
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"...Your name is Natsuhi, Mother. It has the kanji for a season in it. Pretty nice name. However, just because your name is Natsuhi, that doesn't necessarily mean that you like summer. Which season do you really like, Mother...?"
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resurgam40 posted:Hypothesis: Cliff Baby came to relatives after Battler found the gold with an idea on how to get Krauss/Natsuhi to confess embezzlement, and told the story about the baby. Then, once Natsuhi leaves, everyone hatches a plan to have Battler pretend to be Cliff Baby and call her... maybe they went as far as to plan to fake the murders in the first twilight as well. Remember, Erika didn't examine those bodies when they first showed up. Maybe they really did get up and walk away, and were subsequently killed. Could even have been that Hideyoshi's murder was meant to be faked too, only that one turned out real. If true, this means that the Battler POV we've gotten is completely and utterly false. It's a new tack for this story, but also makes sense, considering how it's been slowly introducing new ways of mistrusting the narrative with each episode. If you apply this new mode of "reading" to the previous episodes, it's easier to understand how and why magic and unreliable narration was being used to mislead the audience. It's also interesting to note that Erika did not see the one thing that would have made Hideyoshi's death incontrovertible: the stake sticking out of his body. Eva conveniently pulled it out of him right before Erika entered. There are definitely some hints to Erika being misled, too.
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Apr 19, 2017 20:00
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resurgam40 posted:This leads me to the conclusion that whoever Cliff Baby is, Battler isn't it. But his outburst at the end here indicates that he was, at least involved... and very possibly could have made the calls on Cliff Baby's behalf. Which means- sorry, CottonWolf It's okay. Much as it upsets me, it's consistent. I'm going to continue to try and find routes for it not to be true though! In terms of the Cliff Baby as Battler thing, we hit the old piece-Battler/meta-Battler conflict. At what point does piece-Battler become independent of meta-Battler. Do piece- and meta- Battler diverge at the entrance to Rokkenjima, or is it before that? Basically, does meta-Battler know the same things piece-Battler knows prior to the arrival to Rokkenjima at every game? Meta-Battler definitely doesn't know his parentage. Does that preclude piece-Battler from knowing it? Because Battler as accomplice/Cliff Baby only makes sense if their consciousnesses diverge prior to the arrival at Rokkenjima. I still like Battler as Kyrie's child, but if we assume that Battler could be the Cliff Baby, we can get a pretty good theory about how it would have worked by combining BurningStone's and ZiegeDame's theories (plus a little wild speculation of my own). Just to clarify some terminology here; the character who fixes the vase for Kuwadorian child, I'm calling Beatrice I, Kuwadorian child I'm calling Beatrice II, and "1986 Killer Beatrice" I'm calling Beatrice III. Kinzo only seems to care about Beatrice, and not really even about his direct children. Therefore Kinzo going to any lengths for an unrelated baby seems unlikely, as thetruegentleman pointed out. Therefore, I present the blue text from ZiegeDame's theory: Beatrice II is the child of Kinzo and Beatrice I. The character currently known as Ushiromiya Battler is the child of Kinzo and Beatrice II. Therefore, being both Kinzo's son and a direct relative of Beatrice, Kinzo values him. Also, he is the grandson of Kinzo and thus qualified to be Beatrice III's opponent in the meta-game. We then switch to BurningStone's theory almost unchanged, excepting that Kyrie's miscarriage is a red herring: Natsuhi cannot conceive. After Beatrice II's death, Kinzo needs someone to raise his child by Beatrice II. He gives this child to Natsuhi under the pretence that he came from an orphanage. Natsuhi attempts to kill the character currently known as Battler, but fails to kill anyone. Kinzo finds out. Kills the servant to hush it up, and arranges that her corpse and that of another baby are found later. He never forgives Natsuhi. The original Ushiromiya Battler, who is Rudolf and Asumu's son, dies. Kinzo arranges for them to adopt the current-Battler. E: Of course, this requires his Ange to be his a metaphorical rather than literal sister. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 20:16
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Cyouni posted:I did consider this for a bit, but then I also realized there was another call. Somewhere around the time Natsuhi woke up and had Genji's death reported to her, the mystery caller called Natsuhi and had her hear Krauss's voice. Unless there was some weird time where Battler managed to vanish during the cousins' body investigation, that's not possible for him. It's also not possible before that, because Intellectual Rapist Wall Spider. I believe it has to include those two, as I suspect Kanon in particular of being Cliff Baby... and that Nanjo did as I suspect he'd done before and lied through his teeth. Detective authority guarantees the truth, but it doesn't guarantee that anyone other than the detective hold that truth or tell it to the detective (Knox's 9th, I think). Which is why most detectives have trusted morticians with which to discuss bodies, or just do the drat autopsies themselves. But the point that Battler couldn't have made the other call does stand, so I ameliorate my theory to say that Battler made one of the calls, and that someone else made the other. Presumably whoever had absconded with Krauss was the one who made the second call (and probably killed hem right after that call). Who's actions weren't being followed at that point? That might be a candidate.
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Apr 19, 2017 20:22
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CottonWolf posted:snip I think there's pretty conclusive circumstantial evidence that 'Beatrice I' aka 'Virgilia' is just Kumasawa, who aside from Genji, Nanjo, and Kinzo is the only person who knows Beatrice II exists, and was likely her primary caretaker. I also don't like Cliff Baby being relevant to the central mystery for the simple fact that it isn't presented until EP5, and we know that all the mysteries are solvable using only information presented in EPs 1-4. For that reason I'm inclined to believe it's just a sin from Natsushi's past that can be used to torture her, as well as elaboration on Kinzo's monstrosity that motivated half of the conspirators.
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Apr 19, 2017 20:45
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resurgam40 posted:I believe it has to include those two, as I suspect Kanon in particular of being Cliff Baby... and that Nanjo did as I suspect he'd done before and lied through his teeth. Detective authority guarantees the truth, but it doesn't guarantee that anyone other than the detective hold that truth or tell it to the detective (Knox's 9th, I think). Which is why most detectives have trusted morticians with which to discuss bodies, or just do the drat autopsies themselves. Well let's see. Alive guesthouse group was monitored by Erika, so out. Gohda and Kanon were at the door, so out. That leaves Shannon, Kumasawa, and dead guesthouse people. Of those, only one is male: George. I by far prefer my theory of it being Krauss, with assistance from Genji in faking that one call. Less moving parts, but for now it does have the Hideyoshi problem. Additionally, I will submit this: Cliff-Baby and Beatrice are unrelated in this mystery. Interesting note: In Battler vs Dlanor, Beatrice switches to plural in "kill us". A suggestion that there's multiple people on the Beatrice conspiracy, given Battler's life hadn't yet been threatened at that point? Cyouni fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 20:53
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Cyouni posted:Well let's see. Alive guesthouse group was monitored by Erika, so out. Gohda and Kanon were at the door, so out. That leaves Shannon, Kumasawa, and dead guesthouse people. Of those, only one is male: George. Uh oh, Battler was only monitored by Erika until he screamed, at which point she ran off to look at all the tape, so she never actually bothered to check that someone was dead at the time Battler actually screamed: her entire theory is bunk if Battler has a second personality to make his thoughts unreliable, or if he ran out of the room to find help.
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Apr 19, 2017 21:13
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An interesting thing about this game that just occurred to me is that it presents a pretty tempting offer to Battler. If he just accepts this fragment as the truth, he, Rudolf, and Kyrie all get to come home to Ange with ten tons of gold besides. Nearly all of the rest of his family is either dead or in prison, but this is probably the best possible outcome for Battler personally that he could hope for. All he has to do is throw Natsushi under the bus, ignore what he knows to be true, and leave Beatrice to veg out and suffer for all eternity.
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Apr 19, 2017 21:32
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ZiegeDame posted:I think there's pretty conclusive circumstantial evidence that 'Beatrice I' aka 'Virgilia' is just Kumasawa, who aside from Genji, Nanjo, and Kinzo is the only person who knows Beatrice II exists, and was likely her primary caretaker. Yeah, I'm definitely still more on board with the Battler is Kyrie's son theory.
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Apr 19, 2017 22:20
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thetruegentleman posted:Uh oh, Battler was only monitored by Erika until he screamed, at which point she ran off to look at all the tape, so she never actually bothered to check that someone was dead at the time Battler actually screamed: her entire theory is bunk if Battler has a second personality to make his thoughts unreliable, or if he ran out of the room to find help. Or if he screams as part of a conspiracy.
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Apr 19, 2017 22:24
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thetruegentleman posted:Uh oh, Battler was only monitored by Erika until he screamed, at which point she ran off to look at all the tape, so she never actually bothered to check that someone was dead at the time Battler actually screamed: her entire theory is bunk if Battler has a second personality to make his thoughts unreliable, or if he ran out of the room to find help. Wouldn't be the first time the game pulled something like that off with time of death being kept vague to twist the red truth in your favor.
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Apr 19, 2017 22:25
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Well, the game isn't over; the witches lost interest. I guess this timeline goes into stasis or plays out without their influence. Maybe there are more murders, maybe not. For cliff baby being Beatrice 2's child, I thought the ages didn't work - she died too early. Man, the chronology is a mess. But yes, the source of the baby doesn't matter for my blue, so long as it's tied to the family. I think it's important to understand that this game is not like the others, and may not have the same killer(s). There's a new witch in town, and she plays the game very differently, even if the rules are the same.
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Apr 19, 2017 22:31
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thetruegentleman posted:Uh oh, Battler was only monitored by Erika until he screamed, at which point she ran off to look at all the tape, so she never actually bothered to check that someone was dead at the time Battler actually screamed: her entire theory is bunk if Battler has a second personality to make his thoughts unreliable, or if he ran out of the room to find help. As great as the detective's authority is I don't think it includes being able to observe people's thoughts, or am I misunderstanding something here
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Apr 19, 2017 22:32
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BurningStone posted:For cliff baby being Beatrice 2's child, I thought the ages didn't work - she died too early. Man, the chronology is a mess. But yes, the source of the baby doesn't matter for my blue, so long as it's tied to the family. For what it's worth, this part of the timeline is relatively unambiguous by Umineko standards. We have in red that the events between Rosa and Beatrice 2 took place in 1967, 19 years ago.
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Apr 19, 2017 22:45
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oblongmeow posted:For what it's worth, this part of the timeline is relatively unambiguous by Umineko standards. We have in red that the events between Rosa and Beatrice 2 took place in 1967, 19 years ago. Which is why a baby also appearing suddenly 19 years ago is particularly suspicious.
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Apr 19, 2017 23:02
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CottonWolf posted:Which is why a baby also appearing suddenly 19 years ago is particularly suspicious. It also means 3 people all fell off cliffs in the same year. If Kinzo had spent as much on proper fencing as he did on secret passageways and hidden mansions we'd probably be reading a very different story.
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Apr 19, 2017 23:14
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tiistai posted:As great as the detective's authority is I don't think it includes being able to observe people's thoughts, or am I misunderstanding something here Pretty sure Erika's can't (even is she could, she isn't supposed to use mystical abilities per Bern's order), but it might help explain why Battler would help Natushi (either in her father's study, or his current location) when he's supposedly after revenge; it might also explain why he would kill people other than Jessica in that room. I also don't like loose ends on a personal level  . It probably isn't strictly necessary
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Apr 20, 2017 00:23
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I see what you did there. Cliff-Baby and Beatrice are unrelated in this mystery. So with this one of a worthless case, with Red being disallowed lets just move away from everything with Miss I'm an OC because she can't exist. Now if we take the cliff baby as on of the younger people on this island then it would have to be Kanon or Shannon for about the right ages. So more random questing to turn the table will be needed.
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Apr 20, 2017 00:26
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thetruegentleman posted:Uh oh, Battler was only monitored by Erika until he screamed, at which point she ran off to look at all the tape, so she never actually bothered to check that someone was dead at the time Battler actually screamed: her entire theory is bunk if Battler has a second personality to make his thoughts unreliable, or if he ran out of the room to find help. That...is actually a viable answer. I'm hesitant to accept it as the answer simply because that plan would rely on Battler knowing Erika was listening, and would run off to check the seals before anyone else could confirm. To some degree, I'd also question the absence of blood splatter on Battler from the rushed killings then, but I'm not sure if that'd become relevant at any point.. DLord posted:I see what you did there. Fine, I'll adjust my statement. Beatrice is not involved in the murders in this episode. If Cliff-Baby is Battler, this does not discount Beatrice and Battler being related.
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Apr 20, 2017 00:53
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oblongmeow posted:For what it's worth, this part of the timeline is relatively unambiguous by Umineko standards. We have in red that the events between Rosa and Beatrice 2 took place in 1967, 19 years ago. Hmm. I did like the Beatrice-as-mother possibility. Replacing Kyrie with her keeps the rest of the logic together. Explains why Battler's sin couldn't have been done by the original Battler - Beatrice didn't care about him.
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Apr 20, 2017 01:12
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Wouldn't be surprised if Shannon/Kanon is the baby. Leaning towards Kanon because he's a boy. Sure, there's the age issue but their ages aren't ever stated in red, right?
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Apr 20, 2017 01:25
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Cyouni posted:Fine, I'll adjust my statement. Beatrice is not involved in the murders in this episode. If Cliff-Baby is Battler, this does not discount Beatrice and Battler being related. That's not much of a blue when "the witch wasn't involved in the murders" is the whole point the human side is trying so hard to prove.
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Apr 20, 2017 02:10
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tiistai posted:That's not much of a blue when "the witch wasn't involved in the murders" is the whole point the human side is trying so hard to prove. I think Cyouni means whichever human is behind Beatrice. Which is silly as there's no such person.
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Apr 20, 2017 02:41
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Dr Pepper posted:I think Cyouni means whichever human is behind Beatrice. That's still effectively saying "Person X wasn't involved in the murders" which is just lol
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Apr 20, 2017 02:55
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I'm still pretty sure it's a double plot here. I've been trying to avoid the idea that literally everyone is part of the conspiracy, but it would certainly make aspects of this case easier. (Particularly things like who called Natsuhi - George isn't a GREAT suspect for that and he's the best one I've found so far.) But I definitely believe it's one conspiracy to frame Natsuhi for fake murders and one actual murderer (Kanon) taking care of people behind the scenes, using that conspiracy as cover. Incidentally, if that is the right structure, that means Eva beat Natsuhi up for no goddamned reason, since she'd know already she hadn't murdered anyone (recently). Eva is terrible.
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Apr 20, 2017 03:21
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Unless whoever (Kanon?) did kill Hideyoshi, which seems plausible.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:53
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curiousCat posted:Unless whoever (Kanon?) did kill Hideyoshi, which seems plausible. Hang on, let me get this theory straight. So, in this conspiracy scenario Eva now honestly believes Natsuhi murdered Hideyoshi despite being the one who framed her in the first place? Why doesn't she suspect people like Kanon who knew about the plan? Why did they, Eva in particular, leave Natsuhi in the closet if they knew she was there and had killed a person?
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Apr 20, 2017 12:16
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tiistai posted:Hang on, let me get this theory straight. So, in this conspiracy scenario Eva now honestly believes Natsuhi murdered Hideyoshi despite being the one who framed her in the first place? Why doesn't she suspect people like Kanon who knew about the plan? Why did they, Eva in particular, leave Natsuhi in the closet if they knew she was there and had killed a person? Well, I don't honestly think Hideyoshi's death was planned, if the First Twilight was conspiracy... In those, Eva was acting distraught, but seemed to me to only get a lot more personal once Hideyoshi was actually killed. To be more precise: the First Twilight was planned as a conspiracy to freak Krauss and Natsuhi out, and the six mentioned there-Genji, George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, Krauss- are not thought by the conspirators as actually dead. We know from the Red that they are dead, but to the family conference guys, they're not- it's all a prank, and they're hiding somewhere in order to get Natsuhi to confess what happened to Kinzo/ all the money embezzled by Krauss. Hideyoshi is the only real body quantifies to them... and notice, if you will, how Eva doesn't mention George at all, whilst beating up Natsuhi, just her husband.
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Apr 20, 2017 13:24
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 BGM: Bread of Life  "Yes, my master." "You CALLED?" "...I want you two to stay in this Fragment and explain everything in the remaining 1st through 4th games. That pitiful transient witch who claims the Illusion of the Witch is true no longer exists herself. Expose the frank truth thoroughly." "*giggle*! Leave it to me, my master. There is no riddle that I, Furudo Erika, cannot solve." "...Of course. That's why you're my piece, my double. *giggle*giggle*giggle*!"Bernkastel wore a massive... and horrible smile, which Erika shared. Beatrice's Illusion of the Witch would disappear, and the results in all of the previous games would be painted over. It had been crushed in every way possible, and only the frank truth remained. Such a weak truth was no better than fish on the chopping board for Erika...   "*giggle*... You mustn't leave even a single Fragment of Beato's Legend of the Witch behind." "The rumors among the servants, the way people talked about unexplained events as though that legend was the cause, the Illusion of the Witch that worked alongside the illusion of Kinzo. Deal with all of them completely." "Of course. I'll get to it right away. We now have the furniture in custody. We're hurrying to identify their vessels."The Seven Sisters of Purgatory had already been taken into custody. Those noisy sisters who had served Beato now faced nothing but denial. What sort of illusion were they based upon which allowed them to 'manifest'? ...Everything would be exposed... and denied.   "The 1960's? The Seven Sisters of Purgatory are <Made in USA>? Pfft, *giggle*giggle*giggle*... Even though they bragged about being furniture connected with King Solomon and serving a thousand year old witch, they're a total sham. Who was it...?" "According to the report, there's this group of big-time swindlers who make money by selling fakes to rich fans of the occult." "Because the deceived millionaires try to resell the fakes as though they were real, there's a chance that they've been falsely deified by enthusiasts in the FIELD. We are rushing to find confirmation and further DETAILS." "So Ushiromiya Kinzo was a sucker who'd pay big bucks for any fake occult object." "...*giggle*giggle*, ahahahahahahahaha...!! And that's what the Seven Sisters of Purgatory really are...? That's so weird, ahahahahahhhahahahahhahahahha!! A total sham, just like Beato's Illusion of the Witch." "Though they call themselves the seven deadly sins, they're actually cheap, fake souvenirs. Well, from the very beginning, I figured they were nothing more than paperweights sold at some shady souvenir shop." "*giggle*giggle*!! Paperweights...! Ahhahhahhahahahahahahahahahaha!! Have you confronted the Seven Sisters with that truth yet?" "No, not YET." "They still seriously believe that they were created by a great sorcerer over a thousand years ago. I'd like to confront them with perfect evidence and the truth right away and let them know that they're mere paperweights, worth less than 30 US dollars." "When you do, I wonder what their faces will look like... as they lose all hope. *giggle*, I can't wait. Call for me when that happens. I'll come to watch, with some of the best black tea and dried plums."Beato's Illusion of the Witch had already been penetrated, and it was proven that everything was simply the result of human delusions. What kind of delusions created them, and what caused these in the first place? When that was proven perfectly and shoved in the faces of those concerned... The illusion would vanish and be completely annihilated. This is what they meant... by 'execution'.  "...An execution is not a SHOW. As a general rule, it is not made PUBLIC." "This is an inspection by the Great Lady Bernkastel, member of the senate, so she can observe that the Great Court is performing its duties satisfactorily. Do you, as a mere Inquisitor of Heresy, wish to block this...?" "Yeah, that's right. I'm just observing as a representative of the senate to make sure you observe the proper procedures when you carry out your work. *giggle*giggle*giggle*." "We are currently preparing to take Virgilia, Ronove, and Gaap into custody as well. The Chiester Sisters Imperial Guards are conducting that investigation. Of course, we will then detain and execute those three connected to Beatrice." "Dlanor. What is the true nature of the Chiester Sisters?" "...We believe there is a high likelihood that their vessels are weapons used in the CRIME. For this purpose, Senior Aide Gertrude has formed a special TEAM. We are currently investigating all CASES." "I'm looking forward to the Chiester Sisters' execution too...! One at a time? Or all of them at once?" "No one's stupid enough to put an entire can of tea leaves in a pot at once. You've got to enjoy it slowly, one spoonful at a time." "*giggle*giggle*! Exactly. Let's have their executions on consecutive days. For the furniture and the witches, one by one. I'll send you an execution show every day." "...Maybe we can let them decide which ones to execute first. Heheheheheheheheh! Make sure you think up something great for the execution concept. I'd like to enjoy executions both old and new, from east and west every day." "...The rules state that the method of execution is to follow Great Court REGULATIONS." "Leave it to me, my master. I will most certainly prepare you a fascinating execution show!" "At the very least, you've got to quarter one of them." "Of course. I shall make a list of the best forms of execution from all countries, from Europe to Asia, which were used by kingdoms east and west for nothing less than treason against the king!" "...I'd like to think of some execution methods myself. Pondering that will be the perfect way to relax on those sleepless nights. *giggle*. I'll iron out my ideas and send you a letter soon." "Certainly, my master. Then we'll have the Bernkastel-style one as the grand finale." "...At the very, very end, when all of the illusions are broken and Beato's magical compendium has been completely crushed, I shall present my master with the finest execution she desires... the execution of Beatrice...!" "Y, your words are too good for me...! My master...!!" "Erika, I will give you honor and a reward. It's the greatest symbol of Beatrice, the portrait from the reception hall. Take that off, smash it to make firewood, bake a cake with that and eat it. After that, I'll allow you to put your portrait up in the remaining frame." BGM: Happiness of Marionette - Omake  "...Th, thank you very much...! It is a great honor...!" "...You will eradicate and erase Beatrice's name and all traces of her. Until that is all finished, I will order that you be made the master of this sealed-off Rokkenjima." "...By the name of the Witch of Miracles, Bernkastel, I proclaim that you will be given the rank of witch until that day. From now on, you will call yourself Erika, the Witch of Truth." Even though she was nothing more than a piece, she was being granted the honor of calling herself a witch like her master, if only for a brief stretch of time... Erika was so moved that her actions had been acknowledged in this greatest form that she trembled... "Dlanor, continue to aid Erika and report on her progress to me." "...As you WISH." "...By the way, where's Lambda?" "She is over THERE."From the guest seating on the second floor, she pointed downwards. Lambdadelta... could be seen beneath Battler, who hung there, dead and pierced by the red longsword.  BGM: About Face "What a wonderful way to die. Erika! You can hang Battler's corpse in the mansion's reception hall. The next time I come to visit this Fragment, welcome me in front of it." "Certainly, my master. I'll make that foolish man an eternal monument to my master's victory!" "*giggle*, that sounds wonderful. Really tasteful. Maybe you can coat him with plaster and make a beautiful white statue. And it'd be wonderful if you decorated him all cute!" "Yes, Lady Lambdadelta. I will strive to answer to your expectations...!" "Congratulations on becoming a witch. Though it will just be for a while, I'll welcome you as a friend."Erika was so overcome with emotion that tears came to her eyes. Because for a piece, no greater pleasure exists than having your work acknowledged by your master.   "Galaxy Express?" "The one that isn't 'Night on the-'." "...You know, I read that back when I wasn't a witch. I always thought it strange that humans who obtained eternal life would become so cruel. At the time, I honestly couldn't relate." "...After becoming a witch and living a thousand years, I fully understand it. That writer could understand our cruelty really well, in the truest sense. *giggle*giggle*!" "...Where will you go next? I'll bet we say farewell with our backs turned, right?" "That's because I don't want to let you get bored." "Thanks, Bern. But you can be sure that I'll count to a hundred and then start searching for you again." "You really don't let a person get bored. That's why I like you, love you. Let's meet again somewhere. However, we may not be reunited for another hundred or thousand years... if ever." "That's alright. The sea of Fragments is tiny to a pair who love each other." "The Third Man?" "No, Children of Paradise of course." "...If each time you smashed one of those countless Fragments that glitter like a starry night, you could escape the poison of just a single evening's worth of boredom, even you would want to count the stars in the sky." "Ooh, not bad... pfft, *giggle*giggle*...!" The tiny, tiny Fragment created by the human known as Beatrice... had now been gobbled up by the two witches... and had lost its glitter. The two who had earlier called themselves rivals in front of Beato... now stopped that charade and laughed together playfully.  "Yes, it's the 6th game." "Decide the title for Episode 6 yourself. After all, you're already the spinner of this tale, as well as the Master." "Thank you very much. Actually, I've already decided on one." "...Oh, already? Then let me hear it. What kind of title is it?" "Yes. Episode 6, Heheheheh, I'd really like to tease you a bit, but I'll tell you." "*giggle*! Come on, stop being a smartass and tell us. A newbie witch like you shouldn't be teasing your seniors!" 
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Apr 20, 2017 13:34
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resurgam40 posted:Well, I don't honestly think Hideyoshi's death was planned, if the First Twilight was conspiracy... In those, Eva was acting distraught, but seemed to me to only get a lot more personal once Hideyoshi was actually killed. Okay, so Eva was left out of the conspiracy concerning Hideyoshi's death. You suspected before that Battler was an accomplice, and seemed to base it partially on the fact that he stopped Erika from discovering Natsuhi - so I assume that means he was at least aware of the phone call that ordered her to hide in the closet, if he wasn't in fact the one who made it. Eva didn't know about this call. Doesn't that make Battler either a willing accomplice to murder or possibly even the murderer himself? Or was he fooled by the murderer too... but is playing along regardless even after seeing Hideyoshi's corpse?
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Apr 20, 2017 14:07
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Here's another way you can be a bad detective: become a witch. I assume all the talk about vessels is "what real world thing was the fanciful concept constructed on". I kind of like the idea that Crazy Old Kinzo bought a bunch of random sharp objects from some dude in New York and believed they were genuine occult artifacts. I do have to wonder who decided that they would be represented as anime girls, but that doesn't seem totally out of line for Kinzo, either. All of this makes more sense if the baby, who I'm going to start referring to as X, is actually one of the people on site. Since X knows the story, he likely is aware that Kinzo is his dad. You can kind of draw a line here - Kinzo's interest in the occult inspires X, who plans the Beatrice Murders with occult trappings. If X is Kanon, it explains how, or at least why, he also ropes Shannon into it. The two of them then spend time with Maria and teach her about the occult as well, which is why her personal cosmology (as related to us by Ange) uses the same symbols as Beatrice's and possibly Kinzo's. It makes sense that a person who was abandoned as a child would sympathize with Maria's situation and maybe even crave the company of someone who could understand it, and teaching her how to play make-believe might be the only way they understand how to help her. Virgilia is Kumasawa because X looks up to her as a mentor, and probably learned a lot of the Beatrice Island Folklore from her. Genji is reimagined as Ronove. The Secret Guns become soldiers of heaven. The Special Stakes become instruments of vengeance. It's all in the way a child sees the world; when I was a lad, I remember being really impressed by a shelf of old books my parents had. I wasn't allowed to touch them, of course, because I was tiny and had no self-control and I probably would have destroyed them. I always imagined there might be any kind of secret in there; they looked impressive (they weren't bound the way modern books are normally bound), they were heavy and had cool little designs on the covers. They even smelled interesting. But, of course, as I grew up, I discovered that they were just ordinary books that happened to look old for reasons of style; I could probably buy similar ones on Amazon right now if I wanted to. "Magic" is what we call something when we don't know how it works or what it is, and when you're a child that applies to basically everything.
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Apr 20, 2017 15:28
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This 5th game truly has no love, no goddamn love at all.
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Apr 20, 2017 16:18
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"I am the cruelest witch"... every time, I think that we have reached the end of Berne's cruelty, and every time she gleefully proves me wrong. It is difficult coming into this with Higurashi fresh in my mind, to see somebody wearing the face of my favorite character to be so monstrous... So I suppose it is worth remembering that Berne isn't that character, but what they left behind- the experiences that they left behind in order to remain the precocious prankster I remember. And what remained... was pain unending. Pain with no release, no prerogative... except to replicate itself in others.
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Apr 20, 2017 16:54
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EagerSleeper posted:This 5th game truly has no love, no goddamn love at all. I'm not so sure: ,and "...You know, I read that back when I wasn't a witch. I always thought it strange that humans who obtained eternal life would become so cruel. At the time, I honestly couldn't relate." seem oddly...compassionate?Lambda doesn't actually seem quite so bad here, and her twisted affection for Bern/admiration of Battler makes me wonder what she's really after. Regardless, I eagerly await the time Battler pulls himself from the sword and shoves Erika's face into the mud, while the witch who shares that face is forced to watch.
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Apr 20, 2017 17:33
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I'm gonna go poke some more holes in cliff baby theories. If Kanon is cliff baby, the first thing we know for sure is Kanon is lying about his age. We know Jessica has known Kanon for at least 3 years, so while a 19 year old pretending to be 16 might be doable, a 16 year old pretending to be 13 is a harder sell. Also, Kanon always refers to Shannon as Onee-san (Older Sister), so either she's also lying about her age (an even harder sell considering how long she's worked there) or Kanon is lying to her as well, which begs the question of why. As for going forward, I sure am looking forward to Erika's explanation for how Natsushi was the culprit in the games where half her head exploded or she was disemboweled on the first Twilight.
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Apr 20, 2017 17:47
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I was going to join the witches and read ahead. ... This game is not on steam yet, and I want to support the developer, so I'll have to wait. 
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Apr 20, 2017 19:11
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