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Basebf555 posted:Is this a scenario that has ever really come up in the movies though? When is a Sith ever defending himself using lightning? That's a fair observation. Edit: I literally thought about Palpatine as an example here and thought it was too uncharitable.
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Apr 19, 2017 17:06
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Yorkshire Tea posted:Why? When a Jedi defends himself by trying to stab you with a lightsaber and a Sith does the same with magical lightning why is one acceptable and the other not? Are they both unacceptable? And if so why is defending yourself with lethal force unacceptable?
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Apr 19, 2017 17:08
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The PT and OT tell us that if you have use of the Force (as in, it obeys your commands, rather than just guiding your actions), you are one of: 1) a member of the Jedi Order 2) one of a pair of Sith 3) somebody who was in the Jedi Order, but left (Count Dooku left the order and was not immediately assumed to be in an "always two, there are" relationship) The Force Awakens raised other questions. Does Maz Kanata's knowledge of the Force and "insight" come unbidden? I think it is possible, but unlikely, that Maz has zero control over the role of the Force in her life and that Rey is not the only untrained Force user in the entire galaxy so the likely conclusion post-TFA is that there are potentially many Force users without any formal training, who may be using the Force however they happened to figure it out and/or by being trained by non-Jedi and non-Sith.
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Apr 19, 2017 17:09
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Yorkshire Tea posted:Why? When a Jedi defends himself by trying to stab you with a lightsaber and a Sith does the same with magical lightning why is one acceptable and the other not? Are they both unacceptable? And if so why is defending yourself with lethal force unacceptable? A Jedi having to use methods associated with the dark side for defense comes in RotS a few times. Windu prepares to murder a man extrajudicially (in defense of democracy), while Yoda, when disarmed, actually does use magical lightning to defend himself. Both events are immediately followed by the character in question literally falling from a height. The events of the films aren't particularly charitable to grey uses of the force. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 17:10
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homullus posted:The PT and OT tell us that if you have use of the Force (as in, it obeys your commands, rather than just guiding your actions), you are one of: The new EU is also focusing on this heavily. Since they actually have very tight oversight now, it's fair to say that they really want to drive home there are more force traditions then just Jedi and Sith. Rogue One is even throwing them in the movies. It's making me think they really want to break from the Jedi/Sith dictohmy. Remember, Kylo Ren and Snoke are officially not Sith and the Sith are officially dead as of RotJ. So, it's not just Maz, but Kylo as well. So, add a forth, fifth and sixth to that list 4) Knights of Ren (or whatever Snoke is) 5) Guardian of the Whills 6) Untrained users And that's not getting into the canon EU.
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Apr 19, 2017 17:24
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Hi guys I like laser swords in space and high adventure with spaceships and princesses and giant super weapons. 
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Apr 19, 2017 17:34
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oh yes oh god yes form the head FORM THE HEAD unghhhh...
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IronSaber posted:Hi guys I like laser swords in space and high adventure with spaceships and princesses and giant super weapons. This place is not a place of honor…no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here… nothing valued is here.
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Apr 19, 2017 17:36
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Schwarzwald posted:A Jedi having to use methods associated with the dark side for defense comes in RotS a few times. Windu prepares to murder a man extrajudicially (in defense of democracy), while Yoda, when disarmed, actually does use magical lightning to defend himself. Both events are immediately followed by the character in question literally falling from a height. Uh, Yoda never used force lightning. He was just blocking and redirecting Sidous' force lightning.
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Apr 19, 2017 17:49
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Covok posted:Uh, Yoda never used force lightning. He was just blocking and redirecting Sidous' force lightning. It wasn't my gun, your honor. It belonged to the man I shot.
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Apr 19, 2017 17:54
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Schwarzwald posted:A Jedi having to use methods associated with the dark side for defense comes in RotS a few times. Windu prepares to murder a man extrajudicially (in defense of democracy), while Yoda, when disarmed, actually does use magical lightning to defend himself. Both events are immediately followed by the character in question literally falling from a height. Also Luke falling into the rancor pit.
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Apr 19, 2017 18:00
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Yoda uses force lighting and it is very important to the story.
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Apr 19, 2017 18:44
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dublish posted:It wasn't my gun, your honor. It belonged to the man I shot. Do you really think that's a good comparison? It's more like Yoda jumped behind something and the "bullet" ricocheted and hit Sidious, isn't it?
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Apr 19, 2017 18:52
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Beeez posted:Do you really think that's a good comparison? It's more like Yoda jumped behind something and the "bullet" ricocheted and hit Sidious, isn't it? Yoda actively turns the lightning against Sidious. The most prominent fight where an aggressor's hostility is turned against them by serendipity is between the Droid army and the Jar Jar lead Gungan army in PM. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 19:03
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Schwarzwald posted:A Jedi having to use methods associated with the dark side for defense comes in RotS a few times. Windu prepares to murder a man extrajudicially (in defense of democracy), while Yoda, when disarmed, actually does use magical lightning to defend himself. Both events are immediately followed by the character in question literally falling from a height. Yoda wasn't defending himself. He barged into Palpatines room to assassinate him.
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Apr 19, 2017 19:05
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In all of those cases I'd say it was self-defense given they were going to die otherwise. Mace is the only one that straight up gets to the point where he has his enemy down and helpless but then chooses to try to kill him in that state. When Anakin/Vader kills Mace and then later the Emperor in Jedi in a very similar situation, the Emperor's overconfidence made him think he saved him over Mace out of loyalty to Palpatine and hatred of the Jedi, but instead in both cases he helps the person who appears helpless.
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Apr 19, 2017 19:06
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euphronius posted:Yoda wasn't defending himself. He barged into Palpatines room to assassinate him. Yoda has gotten himself in a position where his choices are to use force lightning to defend himself or die. You are absolutely correct that he would not have gotten himself in that position if he were not behaving in a morally fraught manner. This all goes back to Yorkshire Tea's question of, "Suppose you're in the same situation and then /only/ thing you have access to is force lightning. Is the action you take still immoral?" If you've gotten yourself in that position in the first place, you have already hosed up.
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Apr 19, 2017 19:12
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Schwarzwald posted:Yoda actively turns the lightning against Sidious. No he doesn't, once he starts to seem like he's pushing back effectively the lightning explodes. The comparison to a gun is flawed because if you manage to wrest a gun out of someone's hand, they're unarmed. In the case of Yoda, we have no reason to believe he could just cause it to harmlessly dissipate. In the battle of "Force Push" vs "Force Lightning", Yoda pretty much stalemated Sidious and was beaten because he was thrown back more by the clashing energy. The more "dark side"-y thing Yoda does in that scene is when he actively jumps in Palpatine's way and draws his lightsaber when he tries to run.
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Apr 19, 2017 19:17
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Just think if not for Mace's absolutism we could have had a Lucas directed Jedi trial sequence where we actually get answers to how all of this would have been evaluated by the characters themselves. Ground your standing I was.
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Apr 19, 2017 19:18
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I just watched it again and it's pretty clear yoda is using forces lighting . It looks like he is reflecting it back at palps. Anyway it is certainly shot so that the two force users are symmetrical in their use of the "dark side " weapon. This point is hammered home when the force lighting lights up yodas eyes.
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Apr 19, 2017 19:25
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But it's not two lightnings convening, it's a ball of Palpatine's lightning in Yoda's hands that explodes. I don't know where you're seeing Yoda manifest any lightning of his own.
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Apr 19, 2017 19:31
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There are two force users 4 feet from each other with lighting arcing between the two of them. And as I mentioned Lucas does a villain close up on yoda which makes it appear as if the lighting originated from him .
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Apr 19, 2017 19:34
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Attempting to research this on YouTube revealed this  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT8N6Ah-6Do
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Apr 19, 2017 19:37
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Beeez posted:No he doesn't, once he starts to seem like he's pushing back effectively the lightning explodes. The comparison to a gun is flawed because if you manage to wrest a gun out of someone's hand, they're unarmed. In the case of Yoda, we have no reason to believe he could just cause it to harmlessly dissipate. In the battle of "Force Push" vs "Force Lightning", Yoda pretty much stalemated Sidious and was beaten because he was thrown back more by the clashing energy. The more "dark side"-y thing Yoda does in that scene is when he actively jumps in Palpatine's way and draws his lightsaber when he tries to run. So you agree that Yoda forces a confrontation in which he intends to kill a man, and because of that is put into a position where he needs to use his powers offensively to protect his person? (And subsequently is made to fall from a his lofty height.) Beeez posted:But it's not two lightnings convening, it's a ball of Palpatine's lightning in Yoda's hands that explodes. I don't know where you're seeing Yoda manifest any lightning of his own. It's quite beside the point if he uses "Force Lightning" or "Force Push" or some other spell from the 3rd edition wizard's handbook. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 19:36
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I've never interpreted it that way, and while I still don't really think it looks like that I don't really know what else can be said about it. If Yoda actually manifested his own lightning that's obviously quite different than deflecting an attack aimed at him.Schwarzwald posted:So you agree that Yoda forces a confrontation in which he intends to kill a man, and because of that is put into a position where he needs to use his powers offensively to protect his person? I don't care about dungeons or dragons(that's a bit of a lie, I really like Zelda), I'm saying there's a difference between blocking/deflecting something and actively using it yourself, which is why the gun comparison doesn't totally work. I agree that Yoda being there in the first place is questionable. Beeez fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 19:38
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If I recall correctly he just catches draculas lighting and extinguished it. Then he is curbstomped by palps opening salvo. Then he tries to catch it and use it himself before giving up.
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Apr 19, 2017 19:38
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Force lightning prolly works like the harry potter murder spell, where you have to really hate/intend harm or it won't actually work, so you can assume the person casting it is a bad guy
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Apr 19, 2017 19:42
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I think you have to look at the origin of the lightning, which is that it was a new trick for the Emperor to pull out of his bag to demonstrate that he was Super Evil, way more Evil than even Vader. Then after that the next guy to use it is a guy world famous for playing Count Dracula, so yea I'd say as a general rule characters who use it are bad guys.
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Apr 19, 2017 19:45
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He went from extinguishing it to using it against palps. It's a pretty clear progression .
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Apr 19, 2017 19:45
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But Tyrannus is presumably weaker than Sidious, so extinguishing it would be easier.
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Apr 19, 2017 19:47
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AndyElusive posted:I haven't checked but is there an EU story about the Stormtrooper on the Death Star who bumps his head on the control room blast door when his squad moves in to confront Artoo and Threepio? It's hereditary. Jango bumps his head on the door entering Slave 1 in AOTC, and it was passed down through his DNA. There is no EU story, this was confirmed by Lucas himself.
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Apr 19, 2017 20:57
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Davros1 posted:It's hereditary. Jango bumps his head on the door entering Slave 1 in AOTC, and it was passed down through his DNA. There is no EU story, this was confirmed by Lucas himself. *grits teeth*
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Apr 19, 2017 21:06
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Davros1 posted:It's hereditary. Jango bumps his head on the door entering Slave 1 in AOTC, and it was passed down through his DNA. There is no EU story, this was confirmed by Lucas himself. I love that this could be 100% true or 100% bullshit and I absolutely cannot tell the difference.
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Apr 19, 2017 21:07
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Davros1 posted:It's hereditary. Jango bumps his head on the door entering Slave 1 in AOTC, and it was passed down through his DNA. There is no EU story, this was confirmed by Lucas himself. Sorry but I'm going to go with the Stormtrooper is actually Snoke explanation as posted earlier. I refuse to accept the corrupted Jango Fett DNA into my head canon.
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Apr 19, 2017 22:21
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I'd say using Force Lighting on the last page or so of the thread would be the Will of the Force and Not Evil.
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Apr 19, 2017 22:25
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Head of Story group: Director of The Last Jedi  Who is Snoke? It's not a clone or a stormtrooper or Mace Windu or something equally retarded, Snoke is a new character from the Unknown Regions, most likely, because not everything needs to tie back to something in the Original Trilogy or Prequel Trilogy.
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Apr 19, 2017 22:26
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Ferrinus posted:Electrocuting someone with magic ISN'T worse on its face than chopping their head off with technology, so like I said we've got to assume that force lightning either It's gotta cause extreme pain (because of course it does) and age the poo poo out of the user. Look at Palpatine's skin.
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Apr 19, 2017 22:35
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Covok posted:Head of Story group: They really want us to be wondering who Snake is, huh
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Apr 19, 2017 22:36
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who is paul saltines
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Apr 19, 2017 22:39
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who is this sith lord "snoke weed"
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Apr 19, 2017 22:53
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Basebf555 posted:I love that this could be 100% true or 100% bullshit and I absolutely cannot tell the difference. I assure you this is 100% true.
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Apr 19, 2017 23:08
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