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1. Kim Dynasty are literal Half-Gods 2. Blame everything on Japan 3. Failing that, blame it on South Korea and the US 4. North Korea Best Korea
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Apr 20, 2017 02:23
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Warbadger posted:The whole period was full of hilarious responses to the CCP. Mao did a long march? Well Kim Il Sung did an ARDUOUS MARCH that was longerer and betterer!! Mao wrote a little red book? Well Kim Il Sung wrote a BIGGERER BETTERER BOOK!!! Halloween Jack posted:Foreign academics didn't spontaneously get carried away with it; it was a very deliberate thing. There was no reason to leave Juche untranslated and capitalize it, see that it's a translation of a translation of a German word that basically boils down to "agency." That the propagandists had to go digging through these obscure speeches to find something they could sell as a bold and innovative interpretation of Marxism just shows the paucity of thought in the Kim regime. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 02:28
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Much of juche texts is devoted to just repeating, over and over and over in slightly different words, that Kim invented the idea of a self-reliant, patriotic socialist state. Tito? Who's that? Wikkheiser posted:Yeah I might be being too charitable to the academics.
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Apr 20, 2017 02:54
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juche always seemed like a "leftist" version of con poo poo like Dianetics. its repetive bullshit that's written vaguely and filled with complicated sounding bullshit and buzzwords, so "smart" people will think they are clever for "figuring it out", mostly tankies.
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Apr 20, 2017 03:10
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fishmech posted:That would be a major problem yes. All the highways from the north down into Seoul, and many of the high quality surface roads, have tank/troop/vehicle blocking obstacles that can be deployed quickly in case of war. Presumably the US and South would have a massive advantage in air superiority. Like, SK and USA could eliminate the North's ability to strike the South just via bombing and missiles, and then send troops in via air, land, and sea, whereas the North would be limited to just trying to get people over the DMZ, right? Guy Goodbody fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 03:13
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I assume both sides know where all the land mines in the DMZ are or some way to quickly get rid of them or something? Or am I just wrong about there being land mines there?
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Apr 20, 2017 03:18
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Samurai Sanders posted:I assume both sides know where all the land mines in the DMZ are or some way to quickly get rid of them or something? The mines are still there, and both sides have records of where their own mines are. The ROK marks its minefields nowadays, from what I understand, and they've planted by far the most mines. But there was a recent incident where the North planted a mine where there wasn't supposed to be one, injuring a couple ROK soldiers. (e: it's possible that the mine was just an unexploded, undetected one from the war, which occasionally occurs) The mines, obviously, deter land invasions, but if the U.S. and its allies were to invade the North, they probably would come in via air or sea anyway. e: \/\/\/fishmech brings up a good point about the need for transportation and supply routes, and this is one of the reasons why it would be so unbelievably important that the U.S. have China's support, if it were to invade. It's possible that the best land route into the country would ironically be through China\/\/\/ Majorian fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 03:27
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Guy Goodbody posted:Presumably the US and South would have a massive advantage in air superiority. Like, SK and USA could eliminate the North's ability to strike the South just via bombing and missiles, and then send troops in via air, land, and sea, whereas the North would be limited to just trying to get people over the DMZ, right? No amount of air superiority is going to make up for the fact that a ground invasion is still going to be necessary and slow in case of a war like that. Even if the North Koreans give up after a day, you still need to move a lot of people and materiel into North Korea for occupation and civil administration, and you can't rely on aircraft and naval landings to take care of that need (major air and sea port infrastructure would surely have been targeted during the fighting, and become unsuitable for use). It's just one more way that going back to war would be a huge mess. Samurai Sanders posted:I assume both sides know where all the land mines in the DMZ are or some way to quickly get rid of them or something? The DMZ is full of land mines laid during the war, most of which were never cleared out. There are a few known-cleared routes through it used for things like transporting stuff out of the Kaesong industrial area for South Korean businesses for instance. Naturally in case of war these publicly known routes would be blocked, but there's going to be other partially or fully cleared routes in the DMZ.
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Apr 20, 2017 03:30
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Wikkheiser posted:Yeah. B.R. Myers' argument is that "Juche" is unreadable garbo that the Workers Party invented for foreign sympathizers. The first mention of "Juche" was from a Kim Il-sung speech to the "Party Propagandists and Agitators" in 1955, which doesn't even mention self-reliance but praises the Soviet Union at length. Then the term vanished until Kim mentioned it again to some Japanese journalists in the late 60s (or 70s?) I think. And then academics overseas got carried away with it. Like, "Juche! Finally! What a mysterious Korean word! It must hold the mystery to how North Korea thinks!" I should additionally note after hosting north koreans who would later become my in-laws, they had stories which were hard to bear. In one, I had it explained to me that the most important understandings they learned about juche and kimilsungism came from statements made at the public executions of some of their neighbors in a time in which such spectacles were becoming abnormally commonplace. The crime announced before the execution (since they were apparently in an announcing mood that day, this varied) was that the mother had sullied the nation with her race-mixing. Was it ultimately the true cause for execution? Uncertain. Other cases of race mixing had been handled 'merely' with forced abortion. More likely she was being executed for the private sale of food in what had previously been an 'open secret' black market that had crossed the wrong sellers, who would have been in some way politically connected to people who could order the execution and clear up some breathing room in the black markets. Had this woman really race mixed? Who knows, it wasn't like anyone got to inspect the child carefully with some phrenology calipers or whatever before a serviceman shot its brains out. In the DPRK, nothing like this really needed to make sense, and witnesses to the execution would duck silently away afterwards, the same as all the other executions, too concerned with mere survival. But after the fact, a rather morbid observation of the nationalist texts of kimilsungism made it crystal clear that the accusation of the executioners was most certainly a profoundly referenced and grave issue in Juche ideology. The Koreans are the cleanest, purest race. Other races are biological filth. The severely advanced notion of racial superiority and the graveness and 'foulness' of race mixing, so commonplace in all levels of nationalistic teaching and ideological reinforcement, was a hard thing to overcome. Obviously not insurmountable in my family's case! But still, the extent to which Juche is ultimately a profoundly foul thing is almost helpful. It allows you to know something very crystal clear about the Marxist and Leninist types who claim to have informed understanding of the Juche ideology and will spend any time at all celebrating or supporting it, or even so much as calling western criticism of it inherently unfounded. If they believe Juche is a good, solid, or morally well-founded thing, they're ultimately morally and rationally neglectful selective fanboys for anything anti-imperialist and sufficiently associated with communism. It adamantly announces to the world that they will have similarly dubious authority on the goodness or virtue of anything else MLM-ey. quote:juche always seemed like a "leftist" version of con poo poo like Dianetics. its repetive bullshit that's written vaguely and filled with complicated sounding bullshit and buzzwords, so "smart" people will think they are clever for "figuring it out", mostly tankies. This is, I think, a better and much more pithy way to put it, as long as you mention its inordinate fascination with race purity and the Deity-ness of the Kims. Dianetics was at least a little better at covering up the horrid nuttiness for later levels.
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Apr 20, 2017 03:37
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Guy Goodbody posted:Presumably the US and South would have a massive advantage in air superiority. Like, SK and USA could eliminate the North's ability to strike the South just via bombing and missiles, and then send troops in via air, land, and sea, whereas the North would be limited to just trying to get people over the DMZ, right? My feeling is  The U.S./ROK air forces will be a big advantage, but I don't put too much faith in that and "intelligence / surveillance / reconnaissance." The overhead imagery is often grainy, and depending on the time of year, the weather (if it's rainy, snowy or cloudy) will throw a big wrench in allied air power. People are surprised to learn that warplanes even today can be grounded by the weather. And even the full weight of the U.S. Air Force couldn't stop Saddam's Scud missiles in 1991, and he only had a handful sitting in the open desert with clear skies. Since we're talking about Myers, check out the USMC's "North Korea Country Handbook." One of Myers' arguments is that the Workers Party and Kim cult has a lot more popular support than outsiders tend to assume. The Marine Corps actually shares this view and expects North Koreans' nationalism and support for their government to be the DPRK's primary strength and "reservoir of national power." So even when the DPRK military has a lot of disadvantages, the U.S. is not underestimating the North Korean soldier's willingness to throw himself into the fire. fishmech posted:No amount of air superiority is going to make up for the fact that a ground invasion is still going to be necessary and slow in case of a war like that. Even if the North Koreans give up after a day, you still need to move a lot of people and materiel into North Korea for occupation and civil administration, and you can't rely on aircraft and naval landings to take care of that need (major air and sea port infrastructure would surely have been targeted during the fighting, and become unsuitable for use). BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 03:39
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Wikkheiser posted:Since we're talking about Myers, check out the USMC's "North Korea Country Handbook." One of Myers' arguments is that the Workers Party and Kim cult has a lot more popular support than outsiders tend to assume. The Marine Corps actually shares this view and expects North Koreans' nationalism and support for their government to be the DPRK's primary strength and "reservoir of national power." So even when the DPRK military has a lot of disadvantages, the U.S. is not underestimating the North Korean soldier's willingness to throw himself into the fire. I imagine fear of their own officers outweighs their fear of throwing themselves into U.S. fire as well. Yaaaay totalitarianism.
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Apr 20, 2017 03:46
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I would not be surprised if North Korea current war plans have a lot of similarities with Japan's ww2 plans for defending the home islands.
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Apr 20, 2017 03:52
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Kavros posted:The severely advanced notion of racial superiority and the graveness and 'foulness' of race mixing, so commonplace in all levels of nationalistic teaching and ideological reinforcement, was a hard thing to overcome. Obviously not insurmountable in my family's case! Just wow. That's a fascinating post and I don't know how to add to it. I'll just add that I recently read this Korea security analyst, Robert Kelly, who listed a bunch of different ways foreigners "see" North Korea: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/if-north-korea-isnt-communist-then-what-it The Myers view is #3. What is interesting to Kelly is that his own North Korean minders seemed to agree with Myers. "Notably, when I was in North Korea, my minders used a lot of this sort of language. As one of them put it, 'no mixing' (ie. inter-racial mixing)." Kelly on the other hand views North Korea as a cutthroat gangster state; one giant mafia racketeering enterprise. But I don't think that's incompatible with "semi-fascist barracks state." I'm with Kelly and Myers. But this is also at odds with the leftist/tankies and the neoconservatives. The North Korea stuff in the news lately has been exasperating, actually, since the neocon-hawkish & sympathizer views tend to dominate the discourse. Stairmaster posted:I would not be surprised if North Korea current war plans have a lot of similarities with Japan's ww2 plans for defending the home islands. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 03:52
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how exactly is myers' theory different than cold war liberal arguments that stalin was actually a fascist on account if his antisemitism and great-russian chauvinism?
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Apr 20, 2017 04:02
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Wikkheiser posted:Yeah. B.R. Myers' argument is that "Juche" is unreadable garbo that the Workers Party invented for foreign sympathizers. The first mention of "Juche" was from a Kim Il-sung speech to the "Party Propagandists and Agitators" in 1955, which doesn't even mention self-reliance but praises the Soviet Union at length. Then the term vanished until Kim mentioned it again to some Japanese journalists in the late 60s (or 70s?) I think. And then academics overseas got carried away with it. Like, "Juche! Finally! What a mysterious Korean word! It must hold the mystery to how North Korea thinks!" There's something hilariously Scientology-esque about this, tbh. it's the type of seemingly arbitrary doctrinal flailing about that one sees in L. Ron Hubbard's earlier days.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:04
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the juche thing in practice has a lot more similarities to the military worship and cult of personality created by the japanese during the occupation, which was where the nk rulers got a lot of the ideas for their style from. more similarities than to dianetics i mean. i mean any two cult of personality texts are gonna have some similarities but yeah.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:08
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icantfindaname posted:how exactly is myers' theory different than cold war liberal arguments that stalin was actually a fascist on account if his antisemitism and great-russian chauvinism? I've heard Myers also describe North Korea as a "Strasserist" state, as if the "left" faction of the Nazi Party had won out instead of being purged in 1934. It was a more centrally-planned, socialist form of Nazism that even considered forming an alliance with the Soviet Union. But North Korean racial conceptions are different from the Nazi version, in that North Korea doesn't view the Korean race as intellectually or physically superior, but more innocent and pure -- which is why it needs to be shielded from the depredations of foreigners by a protective leader figure. Edit: Modern-day Strasserists also, not surprisingly, like North Korea a whole bunch: https://www.nknews.org/2013/12/the-german-neo-nazi-fascination-with-north-korea/ 
BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 04:08
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Majorian posted:There's something hilariously Scientology-esque about this, tbh. it's the type of seemingly arbitrary doctrinal flailing about that one sees in L. Ron Hubbard's earlier days. I always got the "college student trying to BS their way through a 20 page essay the night before turning it in" vibe.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:15
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I have to kind of iron gut my way through the stories they have, but they are really important to understanding the hardships they still go through to this day. As a specific example: we had a korean feast day! it was a celebration! it was fantastic! the grandmother asked what each food item was, and after trying one, she burst into tears and stood facing away, just like, to the wall. Her son stood near her and consoled her and she slowly turned around and apologized for losing her composure and we kept trying to tell her she had no need to apologize, we apologize, no truly i must apologize, no you musn't apologize we apologize, etc (this goes on for a while, it's like a family apology circle. everyone can hug later but never *during* it is the best) Why did it happen? It's storytime! Guess what! It's complicated feelings! She was trying beef and she got really emotional! There were super super complex memories attached to it, because back in North Korea, eating beef was enough of an offense to get literally executed! You could have dog meat, but dog meat is apparently way not as tasty as cow. There was some dog meat available for them some of the time because her area had a quota of dog furs to send back to the state for the production of coats. Beef, on the other hand, was strictly forbidden. It was reserved for high level party officials, or anyone relatively connected enough to procure some from the grey markets, perhaps also if you were near the tourist centers and could have recycled plates. And here she was, so so many years later, and the table had beef on it. She was dining on a feast that was beyond the dreams even of the higher ups and party functionaries in her area. She was verklempt, it was like shedding a shroud of fear and austerity. So that's the story about how new grandma burst into tears because she was once a commoner who would have been executed for eating what she was just casually having at a party one day yeah refugee feelings are complicated.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:24
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Guy Goodbody posted:Could they even get there? Serious question, if the North started massing troops at the DMZ for a push into the south, wouldn't that be pretty obvious? And then the South and the US military would be able to prepare for it Seoul is only 35 miles from the border, so basically any meaningful incursion into the South at least threatens the area. Whether North Korea is capable of pushing beyond the border at all is dubious, but it doesn't take much.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:45
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Wikkheiser posted:even considered forming an alliance with the Soviet Union so im not sure if you're aware of this but the real live actual Nazis formed an alliance with the USSR https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact one of the key points of evidence used by the liberal "actually stalin is fascist" camp point is myers' argument has a very very long history and i'm not sure what makes this case any different except for the specter of orientalist readings of japan as an inherently fascist shame culture ala ruth benedict floating in the background giving it rhetorical weight icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 04:49
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Main Paineframe posted:Seoul is only 35 miles from the border, so basically any meaningful incursion into the South at least threatens the area. Whether North Korea is capable of pushing beyond the border at all is dubious, but it doesn't take much. It's widely accepted among Seoul inhabitants that the DPRK has a significant quantity of artillery, just regular conventional artillery, set up within range. A lot. It's probably not well maintained, but there's enough that it will certainly do just fine. They're very dully resigned to this fact, just blandly saying 'yeah if war breaks out the north has a billion cannons pointed right at us in the city' just in sort of a shrug well-what-can-you-do sense.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:54
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By the way, what does the South Korean left actually think of NK? Does such a thing as a South Korean left even exist, as distinct from liberal critics of the authoritarianism? Japan has a fairly prominent socialist left tradition, my impression is that Korea's got stamped out by the dictatorship and by its affiliation with the North, is that accurate?
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Apr 20, 2017 04:57
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Budae Jjigae is a pretty cool and awesome holdover food from the Korean War.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:11
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icantfindaname posted:my impression is that Korea's got stamped out by the dictatorship and by its affiliation with the North, is that accurate? a lot of your impressions seem to be based on (rightly, in my opinion) fighting tooth and nail to defend Japan from general orientalist criticism that's so endemic to it on the internet, but then not caring to extend the same thoughts to Korea. The Korean left runs the whole gamut, from overt tankies to people in it by circumstance like you said. To an extent the dictatorship if anything reinforced it in some places like Gwangju, although it obviously had a pretty deleterious effect too.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:17
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icantfindaname posted:so im not sure if you're aware of this but the real live actual Nazis formed an alliance with the USSR The problem with the liberal hawks, first of all, is that if they apply the Cold War playbook to North Korea like it was the Soviet Union, then they're really misreading the situation. The attitude is that if we just threaten North Korea enough, and try to force the regime into bankrupting itself through military expenditures, then it will collapse like the Soviet Union did. I don't think that will work if it's a "military-first" state and that's the only thing really propping it up at this point. We shouldn't do orientalist readings but the "North Korea as a Confucian state" view, which is popular on the left, or an irrational-crazy state (for the right) seem quite orientalist. At the same time, we shouldn't be afraid of acknowledging racial or nationalistic motivations on the part of non-whites, if that is an important part of how North Korea functions.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:17
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Koramei posted:a lot of your impressions seem to be based on (rightly, in my opinion) fighting tooth and nail to defend Japan from general orientalist criticism that's so endemic to it on the internet, but then not caring to extend the same thoughts to Korea. The Korean left runs the whole gamut, from overt tankies to people in it by circumstance like you said. To an extent the dictatorship if anything reinforced it in some places like Gwangju, although it obviously had a pretty deleterious effect too. Well, I don't think it's the case because of a magic black box Sam Huntington style "Culture", which is what Orientalism is, I think it has political-economic causes. But I might very well be overlooking strains of orientalism in my view towards Korea. But basically left-liberalism in Korea looks pretty much the same as in Japan then? What about the political right? Where does evangelical Christianity fit into all this? icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 05:37
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Guy Goodbody posted:So the plan is that if a siren goes off or whatever, everybody goes to their nearest subway station? I don't anything about anything, so that sounds good to me, are there are any serious criticisms of it from people who know stuff? If you ever go to Moscow, it's the same principle: the metro stations are deep, and can double as bomb shelters. They're also really pretty.
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Apr 20, 2017 07:40
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Zas posted:the juche thing in practice has a lot more similarities to the military worship and cult of personality created by the japanese during the occupation, which was where the nk rulers got a lot of the ideas for their style from. more similarities than to dianetics i mean. i mean any two cult of personality texts are gonna have some similarities but yeah. I agree that NK's main 'philosophy' is much closer to war-time Japan than communism in practice as far as I can tell.
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Apr 20, 2017 07:49
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Majorian posted:If you ever go to Moscow, it's the same principle: the metro stations are deep, and can double as bomb shelters. They're also really pretty.
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Apr 20, 2017 07:51
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mobby_6kl posted:They're also completely jammed full on regular basis by normal commuters So they come with their own food supply, why's that a problem?
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Apr 20, 2017 08:02
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WarpedNaba posted:So they come with their own food supply, why's that a problem? It's a lateral move from most of the food that's available in the city anyway. (no, not all, there's some very nice food in Moscow; I'm just saying)
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Apr 20, 2017 08:22
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N3qHSG6F2s
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Apr 20, 2017 11:01
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It's nothing specific to this situation or anything but I'm so used to seeing "man on the street" type interviews where everyone they interview is deliberately a complete idiot and this was a breath of fresh air.
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Apr 20, 2017 11:05
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"North Korea does this every time there's a presidential election." Yup.
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Apr 20, 2017 12:53
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mobby_6kl posted:They're also completely jammed full on regular basis by normal commuters Lote posted:Baseball tickets at Jamsil are like $9 and the beer and food are cheap.
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Apr 20, 2017 13:06
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Another good article about North Korea's missile development: http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/04/19...campaign=buffer quote:First, some inconvenient facts. North Korea’s missiles aren’t really failing at a terrible rate. Sanger and Broad argued that soon after Obama’s decision in 2014, a “large number of the North’s military rockets began to explode, veer off course, disintegrate in midair and plunge into the sea.” quote:Experiencing and overcoming failure is a normal part of building a robust and reliable rocket program. Let me introduce you to Redstone, a missile literally nicknamed “Old Reliable.” It was America’s first large rocket, good enough to put Alan Shepard into space. Nine of the first 10 Redstone launches failed. It’s possible, I suppose, that Wernher von Braun was an idiot. Or that Soviet spies had turned those lovely Hidden Figures ladies. Or maybe, just maybe, rocket science is f’ing hard.
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Apr 20, 2017 13:25
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Wikkheiser posted:On the plus side, Seoul's size poses an enormous military problem for the North, as no army has ever fought a battle for a mega-city of that size before or even anything close. I'm trying to think of military operations in large urban areas and I'm coming up empty. Baghdad? Which is a fraction of the size of Seoul. The Bangladeshi Liberation War? A North Korean push on Seoul would be unprecedented in terms of just figuring out how to do it. KJU introduced "Byungjin", which is basically parallel track of economic growth and military growth. Part of that seems to be turning a blind eye to black markets and foreign currency, and to do a lot more like his grandfather did (opening zoos, parks, recreational areas, etc)
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Apr 20, 2017 15:44
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Dapper_Swindler posted:juche always seemed like a "leftist" version of con poo poo like Dianetics. its repetive bullshit that's written vaguely and filled with complicated sounding bullshit and buzzwords, so "smart" people will think they are clever for "figuring it out", mostly tankies. I think what it comes down to is that this is foundational for some people--namely, old leftists who came of age (and into their political beliefs) when the DPRK was making concerted efforts to garner for Kim il Sung the same kind of counterculture popularity enjoyed by Ho Chi Minh, and The Black Panther was publishing essays on Kimilsungism. Gloria Steinem pulled that bizarre feminist stunt because she's stuck in the same time warp. Warbadger posted:I always got the "college student trying to BS their way through a 20 page essay the night before turning it in" vibe.  This book is a series of essays by different people, but it just goes on exactly like this for another hundred pages. icantfindaname posted:point is myers' argument has a very very long history and i'm not sure what makes this case any different except for the specter of orientalist readings of japan as an inherently fascist shame culture ala ruth benedict floating in the background giving it rhetorical weight The competing theories on North Korean ideology seem to rely just as much or moreso on citing some shroud of mystical Orientalism hiding what's obviously not there. Like, North Korea is a Confucian patriarchy because, uh, Kim was a nepotist and persecuted entire families, just like a Qin emperor (or, y'know, Stalin).
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Apr 20, 2017 16:04
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icantfindaname posted:so im not sure if you're aware of this but the real live actual Nazis formed an alliance with the USSR I think the idea Stalin was a fascist is idiotic. He was an authoritarian dictator, but he wasn't a fascist. The Kim's come close with Juche, I think though -- at least fascism in the mold of say Mussolini or perhaps more accurately Franco and the Falange. A reminder Kim Jong-Il's formal bio on the government website for a long time discussed how he was born HIGH A TOP A MOUNTAIN PEAK BENEATH A DOUBLE RAINBOW, AND A DOVE LANDED ON THE ROOF AT THE MOMENT OF HIS BIRTH. BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 18:43
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