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Kaboom Dragoon posted:See, I don't quite see it like that. Everything fundamental that made you you still exists. If we're talking a 1:1 copy, no degeneration or other weirdness (as seems to be the case with the YoRHa process)? The you that was just cloned has just as much right to consider themselves the real deal as the one that got shot in the head. I guess it's just a matter of perspective, really. im not saying that the clone wouldn't be real you too, i'm saying that the previous instance of real you would still be dead
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Apr 20, 2017 02:00
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Yeah like: Android A has a continuous backup of their memories uploaded somewhere. Android A dies. This stream of consciousness ends. Another android (we'll call them B) has A's memories uploaded into it. From Android B's perspective, nothing has changed - he remembers hie entire life and is going to get to keep living it, like he just woke up froma bad dream after being 'killed'. But Android B is NOT Android A. Android B is a being that started living 5 minutes ago that just so happens to have the memories of Android A. Hell, if Android A was miraculously revived after this entire procedure had been done, you would have them both walking around with 99% of the same memories. It's why part of the reason why 9S continuous deaths hurt 2B horribly even when a 9S with 99% of the same memories is going to be recreated anyway.
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Apr 20, 2017 02:22
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:The setting of SOMA was interesting, but every moment of "oh poo poo, I wonder what happened to the world" was compromised by the idiot ball chained to your neck in the form of the player character, and that's coming from someone who didn't actually finish the game. If it was irritating to me in the first hour or two and it was a thing for the entire playthrough, I think I might drop it from my "I'll get around to it" backlog and go find an LP because jesus christ. Yeah reading it over again that description is more charitable than I actually feel towards it - the protagonist is a Bad character. He does not get less irritating past the point where you stopped. KamikazePotato posted:Android A has a continuous backup of their memories uploaded somewhere. The continuity argument generally goes that there is absolutely nothing important about Android A other than what was passed to Android B, so you cannot actually say Android B is NOT Android A. This is why it's critical to kill yourself the instant you finish digitizing your brain, or else you might become existentially confused.
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Apr 20, 2017 02:58
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but get this, if you put the old planks back together and build a second ship of Theseus then Theseus has 2 ships, and is probably happy about that what i'm saying is that resurrecting your own past corpse is totally cool and makes a fun team (until it times out and explodes, which is less cool, but 9S doesn't seem to be bothered by that in the least) RoadCrewWorker fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 03:07
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 Feels good. Now to grind the last 5% Unit Data.
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Apr 20, 2017 03:11
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Here is a small thing that might help with Unit Data. I was confused as to why some machines weren't showing up on my list when I compared it with a list I looked up online. Under some listings you have to hit Y (On 360 Controller and I assume Triangle on PS4) and then it cycles Variants of that machine. Helped me realise pretty quickly that I was missing those variants.
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Apr 20, 2017 03:21
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KamikazePotato posted:Yeah like: I was having this discussion with a friend (ironically spurred by the fact that he was the one who told me to play SOMA so we could talk about it), and all of these BUT IT'S A COPY NOT THE REAL YOU discussions really boil down to whether you think that there's some sort of external, intangible, unique essence that's the difference between being "a person" vs. a sack of slowly rotting water-filled meat (this also applies to any setting involving the "how much wetware can you replace before you're just a soulless robot" trope). If, on the other hand, you think that what defines a "person" is the sum of their experiences and memories then yeah, if you take Person A and copy them into an identical body then at that exact moment they are both Person A, although their experiences at the moment of copying will diverge and they'll be different people who happen to have the same name and experiences up to that point. Neither one is "more real" than the other one, they're just now twins that are going to have some odd questions to answer and delightful logistical headaches to deal with.
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Apr 20, 2017 03:42
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So wow, ending B is literally just the first one but with more shmup sections and less actual fighting huh? When people said I wasn't even halfway done I assumed there would be some cool poo poo incoming, not the exact same thing I just played but with one or two (admittedly really crazy) major plot beats added and less interesting gameplay. It even ended on the same lame final boss fight but with a shmup section crammed in. It really feels like they just used the alternate ending thing to pad out play time from what I've seen so far. I'm really disappointed, but the preview at the end of B made ending C seem like it might actually change something meaningful so hopefully third time's the charm. If it's the same thing again I probably won't even bother finishing it.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:31
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You won't be disappointed.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:37
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I got Ending E tonight! That was the best credits sequence ever. I can't believe Yoko Taro put a happy ending in a video game.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:42
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I think people hate on 9S because they don't like seeing emotionally fragile boys. Like you see so much hate for Shinji Ikari too and it's just weird. Maybe it frustrates people to not see them "man up" and take control of the situation idk.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:45
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I didn't like playing as 9S too much because he felt so much more limited than 2B, but in terms of story, he's pretty great.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:46
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I hate him because his heavy attack is replaced with a bad minigame. He's pretty cool otherwise.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:47
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Cephas posted:I think people hate on 9S because they don't like seeing emotionally fragile boys. Like you see so much hate for Shinji Ikari too and it's just weird. Maybe it frustrates people to not see them "man up" and take control of the situation idk. That is some real weird projection on your part, I don't think I have seen that complaint at all, anywhere.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:48
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A2 needed more scenes though. A2 is great. Ending D/E Spoilers: 9S stabbing her was extremely distressing for me and I'm relieved Yoko Taro chose not to turn me into a hollow wreck of a person this time Augus fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 04:49
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On the other hand he murders Robot Snakes which is by itself its own reward.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:49
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It's funny to see people compare SOMA to Nier Automata. Despite liking both games, I don't see their stories having very much in common.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:49
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Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:It's funny to see people compare SOMA to Nier Automata. Despite liking both games, I don't see their stories having very much in common. There's some similarities, but they ultimately take two irreconcilable approaches to the issue of mind-body duality.
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Apr 20, 2017 04:52
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Cephas posted:I think people hate on 9S because they don't like seeing emotionally fragile boys. Like you see so much hate for Shinji Ikari too and it's just weird. Maybe it frustrates people to not see them "man up" and take control of the situation idk. I dunno I like Shinji and I like Raiden. Maybe because for those characters I can see the roots of their personalities better.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:04
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Nina posted:I dunno I like Shinji and I like Raiden. Maybe because for those characters I can see the roots of their personalities better. Shinji Ikari's crippling depression is at least justified by his absolutely lovely life, but I dislike the character because he never seems to really move on from it, and the entire show is just his failure to launch until he finally just chills out and joins in on the singularity (which he failed to prevent, because of his crippling depression). Emotional pretty boys aren't a bad archetype, like mos archetypes aren't fundamentally bad, it's just got to be earned in some way. 9S earns his angst, but by indulging in it he loses the charm that endeared him in the first place. It's clearly purposefully done, we have no choice but to watch and then actively enable our once bright-eyed, curious 9S to indulge in a festival of blood.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:11
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:I was having this discussion with a friend (ironically spurred by the fact that he was the one who told me to play SOMA so we could talk about it), and all of these BUT IT'S A COPY NOT THE REAL YOU discussions really boil down to whether you think that there's some sort of external, intangible, unique essence that's the difference between being "a person" vs. a sack of slowly rotting water-filled meat (this also applies to any setting involving the "how much wetware can you replace before you're just a soulless robot" trope). If, on the other hand, you think that what defines a "person" is the sum of their experiences and memories then yeah, if you take Person A and copy them into an identical body then at that exact moment they are both Person A, although their experiences at the moment of copying will diverge and they'll be different people who happen to have the same name and experiences up to that point. Neither one is "more real" than the other one, they're just now twins that are going to have some odd questions to answer and delightful logistical headaches to deal with. I'm definitely on the latter side there. I just don't see how me from 90 minutes ago could be fundamentally a different person from me now. The more time that passes, the more experiences we both have, yeah, those are the things - to my mind - that shape a person. But short of something catastrophic or wonderful happening, me from last week probably has enough in common with me from last month to have legitimate claim to say that they're both the 'real' me.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:15
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Kaboom Dragoon posted:See, I don't quite see it like that. Everything fundamental that made you you still exists. If we're talking a 1:1 copy, no degeneration or other weirdness (as seems to be the case with the YoRHa process)? The you that was just cloned has just as much right to consider themselves the real deal as the one that got shot in the head. I guess it's just a matter of perspective, really. How would you feel if you were a perfect copy of someone else, and reassured you were 'just as good' as the original? A copy is a copy. It can emulate the feelings and past experiences, but it is not the same thing. Cephas posted:I think people hate on 9S because they don't like seeing emotionally fragile boys. Like you see so much hate for Shinji Ikari too and it's just weird. Maybe it frustrates people to not see them "man up" and take control of the situation idk. Personally, I just have it as a principle to not like anyone who stars in a story written by Taro Yoko. It's a good policy. Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 05:15
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Augus posted:A2 needed more scenes though. A2 is great. That cutscene in particular has stuck with me even after moving on to other games.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:18
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I like how in the beginning of route A, you learn about the backup system and then like 10 minutes later, chatting with an android on earth who wants to know if he's really himself if he lost all his original parts. Thanks for making me think about that while on my corpse runs, Yoko Taro.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:23
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NieR Automoata is basically the Ship of Theseus in video game form. 
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Apr 20, 2017 05:23
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Kaboom Dragoon posted:I'm definitely on the latter side there. I just don't see how me from 90 minutes ago could be fundamentally a different person from me now. The more time that passes, the more experiences we both have, yeah, those are the things - to my mind - that shape a person. But short of something catastrophic or wonderful happening, me from last week probably has enough in common with me from last month to have legitimate claim to say that they're both the 'real' me. A lot can happen in 90 minutes.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:24
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Squallege posted:That cutscene in particular has stuck with me even after moving on to other games. You just don't see video game characters you like getting brutally killed instantly like that, not even in Yoko Taro games, there's usually at least a dramatic speech or something. It's deeply unsettling to say the least. By the way, if anybody plays the Ending E credits and sees Caim "cheering you on" by saying this world is poo poo, this game is poo poo, and put your back into it bitch, that's probably me.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:33
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Full game spoilers and ridiculous speculation I don't really believe this is the intent, but I like to speculate on weird ideas. When playing through Route B, is that actually 9S's part of Route A? Or is this another iteration of a situation that has been occuring repeatedly? 2B and 9S are working in a very small area of one ruined city that strangely also includes all of the machine experiments into different areas of humanity. If the androids were really working all over the Earth, then there must be millions of other areas that other androids are doing similar missions. There must also be tons of other "Bunker" satellites. Why are 9S and 2B so specifically important? Has 2B been running the same mission with 9S repeatedly over many iterations, killing him each time, but something about this iteration is different that allows things to advanace? Section 9 fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 05:33
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Cuntellectual posted:A copy is a copy. It can emulate the feelings and past experiences, but it is not the same thing. What SOMA is getting at is that there isn't a functional difference between an "original" (mind A) and a "copy" (mind B). Both mind A and mind B are the "original," because a "person" at its barest level is merely a collection of data. If you can replicate that data perfectly, how can you tell who's the "real" one after the fork appears? Automata, by comparison, sees a level of dualist continuity in its protagonists, which is fine for its storytelling purposes.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:38
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Augus posted:A2 needed more scenes though. A2 is great. Something about both Nier games is that the cast really deserves a happy ending more than Drakengard's, but I somehow feel less bad in the event they don't. When the ending was more or less happy for Automata my response was more "huh, a happy ending" then the satisfaction I expected. Maybe it's because things are more fundamentally bad in the Drakengard games.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:40
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Section 9 posted:Full game spoilers and ridiculous speculation I thought that was gonna be the twist after route A. That this whole thing has already happened a hundred times and the game would eventually be about breaking the cycle. But it isn't actually supported by the events of the game. What with the existence of the Resistance as an outside force, and YoRHa's role to be destroyed once and never come back.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:41
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Cuntellectual posted:How would you feel if you were a perfect copy of someone else, and reassured you were 'just as good' as the original? If we're talking a perfect 1:1 copy, no weirdness or shenanigans going on? I probably wouldn't mind. Besides, from that point on, assuming we both exist at the same time, we'd both be our own person anyway. He's him and I'm me, but even though we're both me/him, the further forward we go, we more individual we each become. I am me, even if some other guy is also me, because experiences are, by and large, unique. If, on the other hand, I was told I was a copy of someone who died a la 9S at the start of the game? I'd still be fine with it. 8-Bit Scholar posted:A lot can happen in 90 minutes. Well, yeah, obviously if I lose an eye in a tragic noodle-related mishap in the next hour, that's a huge fundamental difference. But on an average day-to-day basis, change tends to be more of a gradual thing, outside of the aforementioned catastrophes.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:43
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Vermain posted:What SOMA is getting at is that there isn't a functional difference between an "original" (mind A) and a "copy" (mind B). Both mind A and mind B are the "original," because a "person" at its barest level is merely a collection of data. If you can replicate that data perfectly, how can you tell who's the "real" one after the fork appears? I haven't played SOMA so I can't comment, but when you get that reductive simple logic states something can't be in two places at once. It can be as good as the original, but it is, by definition, not.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:45
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Section 9 posted:Full game spoilers and ridiculous speculation You can tell it's the same mission, because 2B does the exact same run through her system presets. Completely identical. And yes, 2E has run with Nines before, over and over and over, but it's not the same mission. What they have in common is that Nines asks too many questions, and so his significant other stabs him to death. Things advance this time because they take out Adam and Eve, key machine intelligences that put YoRHa on the cusp of victory... and therefore enough of a threat that the machines wipe 'em out almost to the last. Which, in the normal order of things, would lead to a replacement for YoRHa (possibly even with the same name) being built and the cycle continuing, but between A2 discovering her for-lack-of-a-better-word "humanity" again, 9S going completely round the bend, and the pods taking the initiative everything either reached the point where the machines no longer needed an enemy and left, or where the androids finally won their long war, and the cycles broke. At least for the moment. Maybe forever.
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Apr 20, 2017 05:47
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Cuntellectual posted:It can be as good as the original, but it is, by definition, not. What functional difference is there between the "original" and the "copy"?
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Apr 20, 2017 05:48
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I love how often this thread veers into unresolvable philosophical arguments. It's genuinely interesting how people have such inherently different perspectives to existential questions
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Apr 20, 2017 06:11
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Vermain posted:What functional difference is there between the "original" and the "copy"? For the most part, in most scenarios? I'd say there isn't a functional difference. However, they are still not the same thing. The copy is not the original.
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Apr 20, 2017 06:16
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Cuntellectual posted:For the most part, in most scenarios? I'd say there isn't a functional difference. However, they are still not the same thing. The copy is not the original. So, you believe essence precedes existence? I suspect Jean Paul would disagree. chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 06:18
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chiasaur11 posted:So, you believe essence precedes existence? Sartre is a dumb name anyways.
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Apr 20, 2017 06:23
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Of course, to complicate this, don't forget that in the Nier world human souls are confirmed to exist.
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