|
So then what makes an original superior to a copy? I think the problem here is that the word 'copy' itself carries with it a loaded definition of inferiority. It's not an original, it's a forgery, a fake, worthless. Even if you don't mean it, subconsciously, it's understood by us all. We've all got copies of the same movies, the same games and books and I'm guessing we're all pretty happy with our individual copies in and of themselves, right? Isn't it the content of those objects that matters? The memories we associate with them? The meaning we give it?
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 06:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 05:34 |
|
|
Cuntellectual posted:The copy is not the original. As you yourself said, there isn't a functional difference. Therefore, why does the category of "original" matter? What makes it a meaningful distinction to have?
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 06:24
|
|
|
Zereth posted:Of course, to complicate this, don't forget that in the Nier world human souls are confirmed to exist. And are apparently keyed to specific bodies on the genetic-ish level- but a Replicant with the same genes can do just fine. (Are replicants actually clones or were they something similar? I don't remember, but they are infertile right?) It's very confusing!!
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 06:24
|
|
|
Capntastic posted:And are apparently keyed to specific bodies
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 06:27
|
|
|
Zereth posted:Of course, to complicate this, don't forget that in the Nier world human souls are confirmed to exist. That actually reminds me of something I don't remember seeing brought up. Machine cores resemble what souls look like in the Drakengard universe to a suspicious extent
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 06:27
|
|
|
Nina posted:That actually reminds me of something I don't remember seeing brought up. Machine cores resemble what souls look like in the Drakengard universe to a suspicious extent And the scene at the start where 2B and 9S detonate their cores brings to mind the pact scene from the start of Drakengard.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 06:29
|
|
|
Late but I like 9S and his character arc a lot, but playing him took awhile to grow on me. I found the hacking minigame endlessly frustrating until Aurian told me I could lock on, which never occured to me for some reason.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 06:39
|
|
|
Bad Seafood posted:I found the hacking minigame endlessly frustrating until Aurian told me I could lock on, which never occured to me for some reason. wh gently caress
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 06:43
|
|
|
...you can lock on in hacking? gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 06:44
|
|
|
Kaboom Dragoon posted:So then what makes an original superior to a copy? I think the problem here is that the word 'copy' itself carries with it a loaded definition of inferiority. It's not an original, it's a forgery, a fake, worthless. Even if you don't mean it, subconsciously, it's understood by us all. We've all got copies of the same movies, the same games and books and I'm guessing we're all pretty happy with our individual copies in and of themselves, right? Isn't it the content of those objects that matters? The memories we associate with them? The meaning we give it? It would be the feelings associated with the original than the copy, right? There's reason one-of-a-kind art is valued a lot of more than 1,000th copy of a painting other than it's cheaper/LQ. If I had a copy of myself with the exact memories/choices it would still be a copy since it needed a base for it to exist in the first place. It's weird but prints of digital art sell much less compared to an actual painting even if you count all the materials used in the art process.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 06:43
|
|
|
Bad Seafood posted:Late but I like 9S and his character arc a lot, but playing him took awhile to grow on me. I actually find locking on harder since you can't lead shots
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 06:44
|
|
|
Nina posted:That actually reminds me of something I don't remember seeing brought up. Machine cores resemble what souls look like in the Drakengard universe to a suspicious extent And YoRHa has black boxes based on those, rather than conventional style AIs. Sorta makes sense, I suppose. The terminals were trying to build humans, and using cells from the most available life on Earth might be a step on that path. Heh. YoRHa androids might even be more human than the standard model because they were designed to be disposable.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 06:45
|
|
|
Squallege posted:That cutscene in particular has stuck with me even after moving on to other games. It's maybe one of the most hosed up horrible things I have ever seen in a video game. It's very visceral and real, and it's awful.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 06:46
|
|
|
Kaboom Dragoon posted:So then what makes an original superior to a copy? I think the problem here is that the word 'copy' itself carries with it a loaded definition of inferiority. It's not an original, it's a forgery, a fake, worthless. Even if you don't mean it, subconsciously, it's understood by us all. We've all got copies of the same movies, the same games and books and I'm guessing we're all pretty happy with our individual copies in and of themselves, right? Isn't it the content of those objects that matters? The memories we associate with them? The meaning we give it? I don't think I said the original is better; I said that it is unique. It is it's own entity. Vermain posted:As you yourself said, there isn't a functional difference. Therefore, why does the category of "original" matter? What makes it a meaningful distinction to have? It's more of a philosophical differentiation. There's a human drive to want the original, I guess. People pay more for the original of something than a copy even if they're identical all the time.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 06:46
|
|
|
Kaboom Dragoon posted:So then what makes an original superior to a copy? I think the problem here is that the word 'copy' itself carries with it a loaded definition of inferiority. It's not an original, it's a forgery, a fake, worthless. Even if you don't mean it, subconsciously, it's understood by us all. We've all got copies of the same movies, the same games and books and I'm guessing we're all pretty happy with our individual copies in and of themselves, right? Isn't it the content of those objects that matters? The memories we associate with them? The meaning we give it? The key here is the point of view. What you say is true to an outside observer but if the object to be copied is self-aware and you take the point of view of that entity things get a lot more muddled.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 06:50
|
|
|
Nina posted:I actually find locking on harder since you can't lead shots
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 06:51
|
|
|
Bad Seafood posted:I don't even know what that means, I've just always struggled to aim with a controller (and have never been big on shooters as a result). Some of the more mobile targets, locking on will barely hit them unless they double back, because the distance you may be keeping between you and them means your shots fire at where they were, not where they are. Thus, you "lead" the shots ahead of their path so they meet.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 06:56
|
|
|
I'm terrible at twin stick shooters, but just wiggling the stick around to spread shots out worked fine for me. Only had trouble with a couple of the Tower of Mind chests.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 07:00
|
|
|
I don't think I've sat with my mouth open saying "what the gently caress" every few minutes like I did with this game beyond path B.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 07:26
|
|
|
For the sake of YoRHa androids, I think there's a case to make for the plentiful copies of their bodies being a downside. The game opens with 2B monologuing about how everyone is trapped in a spiral of death and rebirth. That is to say, YoRHa androids are pretty literally trapped in a cycle of samsara, dying and being reborn ceaselessly without gaining any greater insight into their situations. YoRHa has a monopoly on what Foucault would call a biopower, or “an explosion of numerous and diverse techniques for achieving the subjugations of bodies and the control of populations." By instilling in their field units the belief that death is not permanent, that bodies are not valuable, that consciousness does not exist at any one place in particular, and that some memory data may be lost due to bandwidth issues but that it's just a hiccup in the system, YoRHa can control where and when their units are at all times. This gives them the ability to mobilize a lot of control over what their units see and even what they remember. Maybe you could say that for YoRHa androids, whichever version exists at the present moment is effectively an "original," a self-conscious entity capable of discovering new revelations for itself. When it defers to uploading itself to a copy upon death, however, it willingly gives up control of its location, time, and potentially memories to a greater political entity that is as far from interested in its own good as possible. Being a copy isn't really any different from being an original, but the act of "copying" itself brings its fair share of problems, if for no other reason than being a process controlled by an information-withholding organization.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 07:27
|
|
|
Caphi posted:...you can lock on in hacking? Edit: Never mind, it's not even that helpful unless you're just trying to kill like 1 or 2 enemies. That said, if it works in the credits, that'd make trying to solo it (which is pointless) way more manageable. DaveKap fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Apr 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 07:31
|
|
|
Alright I started on ending C. That was a devastating opening. The opening was solid, had you playing as all 3 characters and started it off on a really tragic note. A2 seems pretty neat, but I'm gonna miss 2B  .It definitely picks up the huge amount of slack from ending B with that opening, but B definitely left a sour taste in my mouth and I don't know if I'd ever really want to slog through it again on a replay.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 07:32
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:
I'm reasonably sure that 2B's approach to 9S at the end of route B is similarly recorded from your route A playthrough. Kaboom Dragoon posted:So then what makes an original superior to a copy? I think the problem here is that the word 'copy' itself carries with it a loaded definition of inferiority. It's not an original, it's a forgery, a fake, worthless. Even if you don't mean it, subconsciously, it's understood by us all. We've all got copies of the same movies, the same games and books and I'm guessing we're all pretty happy with our individual copies in and of themselves, right? Isn't it the content of those objects that matters? The memories we associate with them? The meaning we give it? This depends on whose perspective we're talking about. To someone other than myself, a copy of me that continues after I die might well be just as good (especially if no tells them it's a copy). But from my perspective I'm dead and my consciousness has either ceased to exist or I've passed on to whatever awaits. Books and movies don't have their own thoughts and feelings, so the analogy ignores the primary issue.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 07:39
|
|
|
Hey so here's a question I had while playing but never bothered to ask here. When you're A2 and you hold down evade and she does that sorta extra "flying with one food touching the ground" kinda thing that leaves behind a trail... what is that? Is it just a visual flair or is it meant to actually do something?
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 07:40
|
|
|
DaveKap posted:Hey so here's a question I had while playing but never bothered to ask here. I believe, and I didn't test it 100%, that it's linked to her taunt move, if you want to start a combo with extra kick. She gets the same glow if you charge that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 07:41
|
|
|
END ME SCOOB posted:Some of the more mobile targets, locking on will barely hit them unless they double back, because the distance you may be keeping between you and them means your shots fire at where they were, not where they are. Thus, you "lead" the shots ahead of their path so they meet.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 07:53
|
|
|
Question that spoils details all the way up to Ending E: So one thing I've been wondering about, having completed Ending E but not all the subquests yet: did the aliens really create the machine lifeforms? We're told that they did early on, but everything else we learn about the past is a lie and half the information you get is false just because the people relaying it aren't completely in the know themselves. Now, the alien invasion was something like 6,000 years before the events of Automata. Adam and Eve insists it has merely been "centuries" since they wiped out their alien masters, but is this really true? Are we to believe the aliens had unchecked control of the planet for that long and yet the world still looks like human ruins rather than alien architecture? And then there's Emil, who created copies of himself to fight the aliens 6,000 years ago... and his copies then lost their memories. He believes he failed to repel the invasion. But it could it be that he actually succeeded, and that all the machine lifeforms present today are actually descendants of the copies made by the original Emil so many years ago, having forgotten their own history and simply mistakenly believing they were created by the aliens? It bears remembering that the Emil we meet in the game emerged from inside the head of a machine lifeform, and that the "zombie" machines that attack the Resistance Camp at the end of routes A/B can be seen to have Emil's face poking out from behind their ragged metal faceplates. It's a minor detail, but in Emil's recollections, we see pictures of Emil clones of various sizes, but no machines on the alien side - just squishy squid-people.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 07:58
|
|
|
The Route C opening talk on this page reminds me of how much I really want a Figma or similar action figure of YoRHa Heavy Armor 2B (Not really a spoiler unless you're one of those dudes who consider revealed merchandise for unreleased Star Wars films "spoilers" like "thanks a lot for telling me Chewbacca wears a vest in the movie, rear end in a top hat" but you never know I guess).
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 08:14
|
|
|
Hyper Crab Tank posted:Question that spoils details all the way up to Ending E: So one thing I've been wondering about, having completed Ending E but not all the subquests yet: did the aliens really create the machine lifeforms? We're told that they did early on, but everything else we learn about the past is a lie and half the information you get is false just because the people relaying it aren't completely in the know themselves. Now, the alien invasion was something like 6,000 years before the events of Automata. Adam and Eve insists it has merely been "centuries" since they wiped out their alien masters, but is this really true? Are we to believe the aliens had unchecked control of the planet for that long and yet the world still looks like human ruins rather than alien architecture? Not unchecked. The androids have been at war with them for a long time. Anyway, commanded mentioned when the ship emerged that they hadn't seen traces of the aliens in centuries. Not ever, not since the war began, but centuries. Presumably, they last showed up shortly before being murdered. Also, the aliens took at least one Emil clone during their battles. Presumably, that formed the basis for their whole machine lifeform program.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 08:45
|
|
|
yo what the gently caress is chewie rocking a vest in episode 8? that'd be cool as gently caress
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 08:48
|
|
|
Bad Seafood posted:I found the hacking minigame endlessly frustrating until Aurian told me I could lock on, which never occured to me for some reason. Also for those frustrated you should try easy with all auto- chips enabled in hacking once. It's hilarious to watch
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 08:53
|
|
|
Paracelsus posted:I'm reasonably sure that 2B's approach to 9S at the end of route B is similarly recorded from your route A playthrough. yeah, to me, regardless and irrespective of any matters on "original/copy" or w/e, if you told me, "hey we'll make another instance of you that's 100% identical... except one of you gets $1 million and the other gets cancer" I think the distinction between the two instances does, in fact, matter a lot. I dunno. Like, if you make the clone, and then both instances persist- you wouldn't call them literally the same entity, would you? (ugh, general you, not paracelsus specifically). They are two distinct physical entities, occupying different points in space. Doesn't really matter that they had the same personality and memories up to a certain point. Regardless of original/copy, you can distinguish between them, just by the fact that there are two. So, if one dies... let's say a year after the split, that another instance exists doesn't mean that the one instance has not ceased. And that'd be the same if it died one month after, one week after, one day after, one minute or one second after. One instance is no more. Another persists. So yeah, a copy that persists while the original dies has just as much right to call themselves the "real" version, but they aren't interchangeable, in my view.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 09:10
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:
Well, I wouldn't put too much stock into anything Command says given that YoRHa has been a lie from the start and not even Command knew all the details. I don't know how canon it is, but the Emil card from Lord of Vermilion says he made some 86 million copies of himself in the hundred years following the alien invasion - which, while not a particularly strong argument that all machine lifeforms are Emil copies in itself, at least seems consistent with that idea. I guess it's also plausible the aliens copied Emil's design and made their own machine lifeforms to counter him. The information is annoyingly sparse in-game, especially since so much of it is outright fabrication...
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 09:17
|
|
|
Is there a point where this game becomes fun to play? I'm five hours in and just unlocked fast travel and aside from the few setpieces like the amusement park I've found the experience aggressively boring, the combat is incredibly simplistic and lacking in options for a Platinum game and the bulk of my gameplay time so far has been slowly running around a pretty but incredibly dull open world doing fetch quests, are thing going to pick up even remotely soon?
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 09:23
|
|
|
If by doing a bunch of fetch quests you mean the sidequests, just stop doing them most of them really. A lot of them aren't really worth it, at least on your first time through. Otherwise, not much about the combat changes. It's an action RPG with bullet hell sections, not a character action game. So it isn't going to be as fast paced or deep as say Revengance or Bayonetta or anything.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 09:30
|
|
|
Hyper Crab Tank posted:I guess it's also plausible the aliens copied Emil's design and made their own machine lifeforms to counter him. The information is annoyingly sparse in-game, especially since so much of it is outright fabrication... I think it's this. We are told that the aliens were really pretty dumb from Adam, so it's not a stretch they just tried to make knockoff Enils to fight Emil. Their lack of creativity stifles the Machine Intelligence too, since all they can seem to think of to evolve is fight or try to repeatedly imitate humans.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 10:37
|
|
|
Robiben posted:Here is a small thing that might help with Unit Data. I was confused as to why some machines weren't showing up on my list when I compared it with a list I looked up online. Under some listings you have to hit Y (On 360 Controller and I assume Triangle on PS4) and then it cycles Variants of that machine. Helped me realise pretty quickly that I was missing those variants.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 10:57
|
|
|
multijoe posted:Is there a point where this game becomes fun to play? I'm five hours in and just unlocked fast travel and aside from the few setpieces like the amusement park I've found the experience aggressively boring, the combat is incredibly simplistic and lacking in options for a Platinum game and the bulk of my gameplay time so far has been slowly running around a pretty but incredibly dull open world doing fetch quests, are thing going to pick up even remotely soon? If you're five hours in and you're still asking if it's fun at any point, I think you should stop and start playing something you enjoy instead I think most people would agree that it's got a slow start, compared to the sheer insanity of the later half, but I thought that the setting and cool boss setpieces were great fun before that even so. It's a slow burn that leads to everything being constantly on fire. If you can't get into the basic action mechanics or top-down shooter segments (ESPECIALLY those), just, like, what are you doing, drop this game
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 11:49
|
|
|
Some people itt need to play The Swapper if they love philosophical ruminations on identity so much.
It's not quite Taro-grade (is anything, really) but it, uh, goes places.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 12:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 05:34 |
|
|
Vermain posted:Automata, by comparison, sees a level of dualist continuity in its protagonists, which is fine for its storytelling purposes. Does it? I mean, I had kind of a similar sense on the first pass, but at the end of A/B [spoiler]2B is pretty upset about having to kill 9S explicitly because she knows there's never going to be a perfect copy of him[/spoilers]. And the whole corpse run thing explicitly involves retrieving any memories (experience) that had been acquired since the last backup, then if you opt to revive an android you're pretty clearly just getting a husk with some combat capability reactivated rather than actually restoring the android's personality. I think it ends up looking pretty similar to SOMA's treatment, just with better presentation and a different set of complicating factors.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2017 12:20
|
|
