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Not a Step posted:Framing *is* super important. I see important research and social programs that can be applied to help relieve or at least ameliorate some of the symptoms of poverty and materially improve lives, especially by helping children build resiliency and bridge the word gap. Its very attractive because it potentially offers a lot of impact for a relatively low investment, which is great because anti-poverty nonprofits aren't exactly rolling in cash. Others see a way to cop out of addressing systemic economic inequality by claiming poverty really isn't so bad and can be 'solved' through science voodoo. I really, really, really hate that kind of person, almost as much as I hate the people who believe that if we can't fix everything we should instead fix nothing. why do you hate that person? are they wrong that such research would be very tempting to use that way in today's political climate? it just looks to me like the succor this research would offer to the poor will just be used to inflict even more nightmarish poverty than before, instead of actually being used to improve the lot of the poor Condiv fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 10:12
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Not a Step posted:You're being incredibly dumb. These people have absolutely no power to make poor people be not poor, but they can help make being poor suck slightly less. They could make recommendations for an equitable distribution of incomes, but I think the grant money will start drying up.
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Apr 20, 2017 10:13
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I think you're over-estimating the effect of these schemes. Anti-depressants don't make you mindless slaves, easily manipulated or whatever. That's not an actual side effect.
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Apr 20, 2017 10:16
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rudatron posted:I think you're over-estimating the effect of these schemes. Anti-depressants don't make you mindless slaves, easily manipulated or whatever. That's not an actual side effect. i don't think i posted anything about mind-control pills
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Apr 20, 2017 10:20
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:They could make recommendations for an equitable distribution of incomes, but I think the grant money will start drying up. You could also do your civic duty and take up arms to bring the capitalist to their knees Comrade. The Revolution is waiting on you.
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Apr 20, 2017 10:23
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Condiv posted:why do you hate that person? are they wrong that such research would be very tempting to use that way in today's political climate? I sometimes forget that unironic accelerationism is a thing. Well. Best of luck I guess. Hail Satan.
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Apr 20, 2017 10:28
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Not a Step posted:I sometimes forget that unironic accelerationism is a thing. Well. Best of luck I guess. Hail Satan. i don't think i ever advocated accelerationism either the capitalists who continually exploit the poor more and more are accelerating the US to its destruction yes, but I don't support them. I could claim the researchers in this case are, but they probably actually think they're working to help people, not working to help capitalists exploit people even more. Condiv fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 10:29
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Not a Step posted:You could also do your civic duty and take up arms to bring the capitalist to their knees Comrade. The Revolution is waiting on you. No it's not. You really don't have a clue what you're talking about.
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Apr 20, 2017 10:29
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So there's this tendency, in some quarters, to think that you have to overturn everything to start the process of change. The assumption being that everything that comes before has embedded within the social conditions that created it, ie "the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house". While the supposition is correct (things like science and technology are not immune to ideology - what gets funded and what doesn't depends on whether or not it is of value to people with the money), the conclusion is not. Whenever you are in a desperate situation, you have to use whatever is at your disposal. The seeds of the new society, lie dormant, in the products of the old. So whatever tool can be used, should be used. So if this scheme helps people in poverty adapt + survive, I'm not going to be against it. You framed it as something that 'numbs' you to pain, and therefore reduces the possibility of social revolution. But I'm not so sure that's the case. I don't think it's a lack of 'pain' that's preventing revolution.
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Apr 20, 2017 10:35
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take the brainpills that improve executive functioning, so that you will be more capable of plotting and carrying out the revolution
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Apr 20, 2017 10:42
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You joke, but that's kinda the better way of thinking about it.
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Apr 20, 2017 10:42
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rudatron posted:So there's this tendency, in some quarters, to think that you have to overturn everything to start the process of change. The assumption being that everything that comes before has embedded within the social conditions that created it, ie "the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house". i mean, i'd be in favor of it if it were actually used to help people adapt and survive to current levels of poverty. or basically, if it was used only to benefit the lives of the poor. but just like antibiotics are wildly abused to have animals able to survive long enough for harvesting in nightmarish conditions, i'm afraid this research will be abused (and is only being funded) to introduce new nightmarish levels of poverty to the lower classes. what makes you think the poor will even have time to scheme and plot when they have to work nearly every second of their lives just to be able to survive, and have a pill mixed into their food that makes that kind of existence bearable?
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Apr 20, 2017 10:48
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I'm not denying this research could be useful in a "life after poverty" scenario, but am very skeptical it can do any good for people living in poverty. It isn't pathologically wrong to only being concerned about your immediate survival when that is what is at stake. If rent is due tomorrow and you are $200 short, what are you going to do? Pawn something off, payday loan, donate plasma, prostitute yourself, steal something? These are the immediate options you have. None are good for you long-term. Sitting down and applying for better jobs or going back to school for a degree years down the line is literally the last thing on your mind, you are going to be homeless in a few days. People in poverty live with this poo poo every day. Their brain adapts to it. And that adaptation is what keeps them alive, though in poor psychological health. What they need more than anything is security. Ideally an idea like "if you work 40 hours a week, you won't be in poverty" would be a government-backed promise.
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Apr 20, 2017 10:52
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Alpha Mayo posted:I'm not denying this research could be useful in a "life after poverty" scenario, but am very skeptical it can do any good for people living in poverty. It isn't pathologically wrong to only being concerned about your immediate survival when that is what is at stake.  it seems like it would be good for lifting up people out of poverty in addition to bolstering their economic security
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Apr 20, 2017 10:55
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Alpha Mayo posted:I'm not denying this research could be useful in a "life after poverty" scenario, but am very skeptical it can do any good for people living in poverty. It isn't pathologically wrong to only being concerned about your immediate survival when that is what is at stake. Non profits can't make that promise because they arent a government. This should be obvious, but I guess it isnt?
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Apr 20, 2017 11:00
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Condiv, do you know where the 'robot' comes from? It comes from a play called Rossum's Universal Robots. But the play doesn't describe mechanical men. The 'robots' in the play are more similar to something like clones. But they have one feature - they don't feel pain. Because of this, they make ideal slaves, and that's what they're used for. Do you want to guess how that play ends? Perhaps making people fear death less, or be less anxious in a critical situation, makes them better able to survive terrible conditions. But do you know what it also does? It makes them better soldiers.
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Apr 20, 2017 11:00
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rudatron posted:Condiv, do you know where the 'robot' comes from? It comes from a play called Rossum's Universal Robots. But the play doesn't describe mechanical men. The 'robots' in the play are more similar to something like clones. But they have one feature - they don't feel pain. Because of this, they make ideal slaves, and that's what they're used for. hmm well if a play says this will be good then....
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Apr 20, 2017 11:04
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Like I said, It's not for a lack of 'pain' that positive social change is difficult. Plenty of people are already hurting. As long as people can recognize their interests, and how that interest is shared with people in a similar situation, revolution is always possible, and nothing here is going to change that.
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Apr 20, 2017 11:11
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rudatron posted:Like I said, It's not for a lack of 'pain' that positive social change is difficult. Plenty of people are already hurting. As long as people can recognize their interests, and how that interest is shared with people in a similar situation, revolution is always possible, and nothing here is going to change that. things seem to be changing cause more and more people are hurting though. like bernie sanders was not a super popular politician till last year, and people are casting off their traditional leaders for outsiders. imo, that change is cause of the pain, but if you have another explanation i'm open to hearing it
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Apr 20, 2017 11:14
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Condiv posted:things seem to be changing cause more and more people are hurting though. like bernie sanders was not a super popular politician till last year, and people are casting off their traditional leaders for outsiders. imo, that change is cause of the pain, but if you have another explanation i'm open to hearing it It's less that the pain is being felt more acutely and more that it is being felt by those who are already empowered. People who are already in poverty generally don't have that much time and energy for politics, and associating an increase in their economic pain with political action is a good sign you might be a privileged rear end in a top hat.
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Apr 20, 2017 11:21
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Hodgepodge posted:It's less that the pain is being felt more acutely and more that it is being felt by those who are already empowered. quote:things seem to be changing cause more and more people are hurting though note that I said that it's cause more people are hurting, not that the poor are suddenly politically active cause they're hurting more. people in poverty have already been pushing for change cause their lives suck, they just got an influx of allies in people that were middle-class before that are now finding themselves sliding into poverty too.
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Apr 20, 2017 11:34
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Man, the past few pages have had a lot of words. In fact, too many words for my brain to care about parsing.
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Apr 20, 2017 15:39
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Liberals hate poor people because poor people haven't seen the hit broadway musical hamilton, and so they can't talk with them about how powerful the hit broadway musical hamilton is, and so they feel like they're from two different worlds and distrust them. poor people haven't even bought the soundtrack to the hit broadway musical hamilton, yet they call themselves americans? they suspect these poor people are working with the russians, another group famous for not giving a poo poo about the powerful and moving hit broadway musical hamilton.
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Apr 20, 2017 15:47
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rudatron posted:I think you're over-estimating the effect of these schemes. Anti-depressants don't make you mindless slaves, easily manipulated or whatever. That's not an actual side effect. For me, antidepressants made me more comfortable with the way things are. This effect was more pronounced on Prozac vs. Wellbutrin ime, though. Hodgepodge posted:People who are already in poverty generally don't have that much time and energy for politics, and associating an increase in their economic pain with political action is a good sign you might be a privileged rear end in a top hat. This is the "Rocky Road" version of the "giving people more money is racism" argument call to action fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 16:06
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Ytlaya posted:Hahahaha this is pretty much the most liberal thing ever. Liberals get wet to the idea of fixing poverty with ~elegant~ solutions involving science/technology that don't actually require any significant material sacrifice on the part of the wealthy. Their mindset is more or less "I genuinely want to fix poverty, but we should hold off on things like significant tax increases because maybe there's a better more elegant solution!" It's basically a rationalization to paper over what is essentially a selfish fear of losing their current privileged status. I think its just scientists doing science you retard. Sorry you cant understand neurons or whatever.
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Apr 20, 2017 16:30
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i didnt read the article, did the researchers give the poor people guns to help cope with their poverty?
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Apr 20, 2017 16:40
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They empowered them with positive thoughts and a path towards success
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Apr 20, 2017 16:42
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aah, I need to remind our new president to attend the ribbon-cutting ceremony for this newly-constructed wing of the suck zone
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Apr 20, 2017 16:43
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Control Volume posted:They empowered them with positive thoughts and a path towards success oh so they did give them guns after all. im on board
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Apr 20, 2017 16:47
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Not a Step posted:Barring genetic and gestational gently caress ups all baby brains are basically the same and have the same potential. Environment is the real shaping force, and we can and should do something about it. Science says that they arent poor because they have short term focused decision making, but that they have short term focused decision making because they are poor. We can fix poor. The pseudoscientific part is where you overlap something that's medically detectable in some cases and map it to entire populations based on their economic class and political persuasion. Its just another variation on the "these people don't vote for us because they are dumb" argument that has been playing so well for Democrats.
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Apr 20, 2017 16:47
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Agag posted:The pseudoscientific part is where you overlap something that's medically detectable in some cases and map it to entire populations based on their economic class and political persuasion. Its just another variation on the "these people don't vote for us because they are dumb" argument that has been playing so well for Democrats. Are you anti-vax? Do you think global warming is a hoax perpetrated to stifle American industry? Is PTSD just being a big baby in your world?
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Apr 20, 2017 16:53
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I'm all for support groups I just don't understand why they're hiding it behind retarded corporate lingo like "innovate yourself out of poverty" or "“The Family Carpool Lane Tool,” meanwhile, helps parents and their children align individual and family goals. Working together, they can avoid traffic and cruise through the fast lane."
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Apr 20, 2017 16:59
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Control Volume posted:I'm all for support groups I just don't understand why they're hiding it behind retarded corporate lingo like "innovate yourself out of poverty" or "“The Family Carpool Lane Tool,” meanwhile, helps parents and their children align individual and family goals. Working together, they can avoid traffic and cruise through the fast lane." The non-profit world loving loves buzzwords and naming things, mainly because it helps them make better pitches to potential donors. If you have some dumb flashy name you can invoke it and hope someone at the fundraiser says 'Oh yeah I read an article about that' and then gives you money to help poor people. Basically, because they are not governments and have to rely on corporate donors to stay alive they have to adopt corporate lingo.
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Apr 20, 2017 17:07
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my economic plan is giivng poor people a copy of The Secret
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Apr 20, 2017 17:11
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I'm fully accelerationist and coping mechanisms are anti-acceleration you could say that they are literally retardation
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Apr 20, 2017 17:10
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Karl Barks posted:my economic plan is giivng poor people a copy of The Secret Its more of a plan than anyone in government has though
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Apr 20, 2017 18:00
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Not a Step posted:Are you anti-vax? Do you think global warming is a hoax perpetrated to stifle American industry? Is PTSD just being a big baby in your world? You are projecting INSANELY hard on this issue, just so ya know
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Apr 20, 2017 18:36
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Not a Step posted:My wife has a PhD in Cognitive Science and works with another non-profit doing similar programs. The goal is to do more with less, because nobody is funding full scale interventions and the nobody in government really seems interested in doing anything to address economic justice and equality (except Bernie, PBUH). So finding relatively cheap ways to help bridge the gap for low income kids is the best they can do. The researchers aren't sitting on a lever that says FULL COMMUNISM NOW but don't want to pull it because it would inconvenience them. They're trying to find ways to have maximum impact with the resources they have at hand. Simple poo poo like helping parents feel more confident with their kids and encouraging early literacy pays huge dividends and is a relatively cheap program to implement. Oh, I have no problem with the actual researchers doing this work. My issue is more with the way stuff like this is treated seriously as a solution to issues like poverty and enthusiastically discussed by liberal journalists and what have you. Not a Step posted:You wouldn't tell someone with depression from living in poverty that it was actually a social condition and therefore SSRIs and CBT are really just treating a symptom. If the depression was caused by living in poverty, wouldn't it actually be 100% accurate to call that treating a symptom? I mean, it's still definitely better to do that than to do nothing at all, but any solution to mental health issues created by living in poverty that isn't ending the poverty itself is, in fact, treating a symptom. Carmant posted:I think its just scientists doing science you retard. Sorry you cant understand neurons or whatever. As mentioned above, I have nothing against the scientists. I literally work with geneticists who mostly focus on brain stuff (albeit with mice instead of humans). It's the way liberals tend to view science as preferable to government policy with regards to fixing social problems that is bad. edit: I'm going to create a non-profit whose mission is to raise money to allow poor people to see the hit Broadway musical Hamilton. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 19:04
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Ytlaya posted:If the depression was caused by living in poverty, wouldn't it actually be 100% accurate to call that treating a symptom? I mean, it's still definitely better to do that than to do nothing at all, but any solution to mental health issues created by living in poverty that isn't ending the poverty itself is, in fact, treating a symptom. Thats the point I was making though. Just because these things are only symptoms of poverty doesn't mean they aren't real problems in their own right with possible treatments. If the people involved had the ability to end poverty they would in a heartbeat, but theyre just a bunch of researchers and nonprofit people trying to do the most good with what resources they have. Treating the symptoms of poverty is literally the best they can do, so they do it, and hopefully actual human beings have their lives changed for the better. Its weird to me that so many people - not necessarily you but Condiv exists I guess - consistently pit helping real breathing human beings against ideological purity. call to action posted:You are projecting INSANELY hard on this issue, just so ya know This is literally my wife's field and something both of us believe in. There are a surprising number of people out there looking for any excuse possible to not help real people. You think this is projection, but its a thing that actually happens and comes from all over the political spectrum.
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Apr 20, 2017 19:28
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If the question is "Will this be used by assholes to downplay the problems of poverty?" then the answer is absolutely yes. But they would have found a billion other reasons to not help people regardless. The problem lies with the fact that they are assholes who don't want to help people, not with the existence of researchers trying to understand how poverty affects the brain and how to create coping strategies to make poverty suck less. Don't become an rear end in a top hat who doesn't want to help people just to spite the other assholes who don't want to help people.
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Apr 20, 2017 19:35
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