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PJOmega posted:That seems to be a really short game. I mean you can theoretically bust a province with Military, then bust a province with Politics. Also, 3-6 seems like it's about the length of a GOT game, although a 3 turn game is more of a "Well my board position is hosed. Scoop." I have definitely won 3 turn Conquest games, too. And I won a Netrunner game in 3 clicks before, so not even a full turn! What I'm saying is that it seems normal for an LCG.
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Apr 20, 2017 17:52
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Team Covenant posted a interview with the main devs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC_IZqqcxxI About half way in, they seem to have a good idea of what they want from the game at least.
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Apr 20, 2017 18:30
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I hope they have the good sense not to leave Scorpion completely gimped in Shadowlands match ups. Basically whatever form Shadowlands takes it needs to somehow not ignore the fundamental mechanics of the game, meaning honor/dishonor statuses and honor point bids in this new edition.
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Apr 20, 2017 18:34
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Taking a step back from the hype and my excitement for the game and mechanics, and bearing in mind I have no connection to or nostalgia for the setting, one thing that does give me pause is the theme. It's pretty Orientalist, and unless I missed something, being headed up by a bunch of white dudes makes this more problematic. Obviously none of us knows what direction FFG is going to take the game and theme, and they've shown they can be fairly inclusive and sensitive in Netrunner, and from what I've read of both old and new L5R, it's low on the sexism scale. That said, as much as I really want to be on-board with the theme, it makes me uneasy. More specifically, I wouldn't want a casual observer walking by a game to look at it and feel extremely uncomfortable/alienated/objectified/othered because of the theme, because that sucks and excludes people in what should be a safe, comfortable social setting. This is a long-standing problem in boardgaming in general, and I think we've come a long way (and have much longer to go), but I can't shake the feeling that reviving L5R is, at best, maintaining the status quo, or at worst, taking a step backwards. I don't really know how to approach it, but I know a good metric for this sort of thing is, "if you feel the need to ask, then you probably shouldn't go through with it." Baron Fuzzlewhack fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 18:55
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SuperKlaus posted:I hope they have the good sense not to leave Scorpion completely gimped in Shadowlands match ups. Basically whatever form Shadowlands takes it needs to somehow not ignore the fundamental mechanics of the game, meaning honor/dishonor statuses and honor point bids in this new edition. Besides it making sense thematically, I liked the tradeoff-they also didn't have the option to win with honor. Although with how honor works in the new version I don't seem them being able to keep old Shadowlands the same since the whole card draw mechanic would be negated (not to mention dueling). Baron Fuzzlewhack posted:Taking a step back from the hype and my excitement for the game and mechanics, and bearing in mind I have no connection to or nostalgia for the setting, one thing that does give me pause is the theme. It's pretty Orientalist, and unless I missed something, being headed up by a bunch of white dudes makes this more problematic. What are you talking about? The whole theme of the setting is pseudo-feudal Japan, how would that make anyone uncomfortable? And what's the problem in boardgaming you're talking about? What "step backwards" do you mean?
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Apr 20, 2017 19:06
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Baron Fuzzlewhack posted:Taking a step back from the hype and my excitement for the game and mechanics, and bearing in mind I have no connection to or nostalgia for the setting, one thing that does give me pause is the theme. It's pretty Orientalist, and unless I missed something, being headed up by a bunch of white dudes makes this more problematic. Is this a real post or just concern trolling? I have never seen this "long standing problem" you are talking about. V: Ok concern trolling got it. LordNat fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 19:15
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alansmithee posted:What are you talking about? The whole theme of the setting is pseudo-feudal Japan, how would that make anyone uncomfortable? And what's the problem in boardgaming you're talking about? What "step backwards" do you mean? Original L5R was ostensibly created by a group of white men who thought the theme was cool. It's a made-up setting for sure, but it pulls directly from East Asian history and culture, of which the creators were not a part, nor to which they had any real connection. They took the parts they thought were neat and incorporated them into their creation, which is straight up cultural appropriation. The general problem with boardgaming's history is that it involves lots of themes of colonialism, racism, colorism, sexism, and cultural appropriation. It was (and still is) pretty exclusive to anyone but cisgendered white males. As the industry has grown, it's worked on shedding that notion to become more inclusive, but it's far from perfect. Drawing an analog to another FFG product and another LCG, Netrunner was a step in the right direction, by featuring a diverse cast of characters with fewer stereotypes (I say fewer because I don't well enough know how the Mumbad Cycle portrays folks from the Indian Subcontinent) than you might expect from the industry, which makes it more inclusive and gets further way from the aforementioned problems. Reviving L5R appears to be maintaining the status quo or stepping backwards into the habit of objectifying cultures seen as "exotic" to Westerners and reinforcing stereotypes, instead of moving away from those things. Baron Fuzzlewhack fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 19:21
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If it's not maximum weeb it isn't really L5R though. ~in ~*rokugani culture*~ there is a concept called "mono no aware," or "awareness of the monorail"~ SuperKlaus fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 19:36
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LordNat posted:Is this a real post or just concern trolling? I have never seen this "long standing problem" you are talking about. Let's not pretend that original L5R wasn't really, really stereotypical to an insulting degree. That isn't to say there's immediate cause for concern with the reboot, but if it's all "honoribu samurai" and "sexy dragon lady geisha" it can become real problematic real fast. That all said, I think FFG has a solid grasp on disentangling properties from their more problematic issues. Arkham Horror has plenty of diversity, in spite of its origin. The art style of L5R isn't anime or caricature, and yes while the "mono no aware" line was a bit cringy if that's the worst it'll be fine.
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Apr 20, 2017 19:50
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Yeah, I too think it should be rethemed to farming in medieval Germany.
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Apr 20, 2017 19:51
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The L5R setting and art are far from offensive and you're worrying for no reason. On the other hand, FFG fans are full loving sperglords that make and sell poo poo like this 
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Apr 20, 2017 19:53
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Bottom Liner posted:The L5R setting and art are far from offensive and you're worrying for no reason. After seeing 3D anime titty strongholds for old L5R I've become so jaded by sperglord actuals.
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Apr 20, 2017 19:58
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Suddenly I remember all the reasons why I didn't like a large chunk of the L5R community. At least it's not House Kurita.
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Apr 20, 2017 20:00
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Corbeau posted:Suddenly I remember all the reasons why I didn't like a large chunk of the L5R community. Were they the Draconis Combine? I admit, most of my btech knowledge is on the side of the filthy clanners.
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Apr 20, 2017 20:19
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A dude wrote a blog post a couple years back about the cultural appropriation and Orientalism in L5R, it's a decent enough read that should outline the problems for anyone that doesn't get what he's talking about, https://shutupinternet.wordpress.com/2014/07/08/the-problematic-nature-of-l5r-part-i/. My problem is that it puts the responsibility of education about the topic on the shoulders of the artist or creator and forgives the consumer for their ignorance and inaction into actually learning about the true history or culture of a place. Like if you decided to give me a lesson on piracy based on your having watched all the Pirates of the Carribbean movies I'd think you were an idiot. Similarly, I don't think anyone should be acting like they know Asian culture having played L5R. The designers mention that the game is inspired by The Book of Five Rings, but I don't think it's borrowing enough from it that they need to pay them money for it, or mention it every time their game is mentioned. Basically I think that L5R falls more under cultural 'borrowing' than wholesale 'appropriation' because it's a fantasy story, not a historical one. PaybackJack fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 20:22
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I'm East Asian and thus inherently more correct than a white person on pretty much most things, and I'm not really offended by anything that I see. It doesn't seem any worse than like, a Samurai Warriors game, so unless there is a white samurai who comes and saves Rokugan from itself, it is fine. I don't know if it's true, but didn't they change the gender of some characters so that there'd be more female samurai?
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Apr 20, 2017 20:29
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GrandpaPants posted:I'm East Asian and thus inherently more correct than a white person on pretty much most things, and I'm not really offended by anything that I see. It doesn't seem any worse than like, a Samurai Warriors game, so unless there is a white samurai who comes and saves Rokugan from itself, it is fine. I don't know if it's true, but didn't they change the gender of some characters so that there'd be more female samurai? Yeah, they made Doji Hoturi male in the reboot.
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Apr 20, 2017 20:30
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PJOmega posted:Yeah, they made Doji Hoturi male in the reboot. However, because we're talking about a Crane character, they'll be extremely effeminate either way.
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Apr 20, 2017 20:34
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PaybackJack posted:My problem is that it puts the responsibility of education about the topic on the shoulders of the artist or creator and forgives the consumer for their ignorance and inaction into actually learning about the true history or culture of a place. Right, I totally agree! Which is where a lot of my conflict arises. I want to like the theme and setting because there's a part of me that is probably a closet weeb, but if I speak with my wallet and support something that is problematic, or consume someone else's culture (creepy), I'm just feeding into the issue and it never improves. PaybackJack posted:Basically I think that L5R falls more under cultural 'borrowing' than wholesale 'appropriation' because it's a fantasy story, not a historical one. That's basically what appropriation is, though. At best it's benign borrowing from another culture that is not one's own, at worst it's objectification and fetishizing something "exotic." Part of the reason I'm a bit sensitive to it at the moment is because I've been evaluating someone's old AD&D collection, which includes these noteworthy gems. Those gazetteers are... rough.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:05
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Baron Fuzzlewhack posted:Right, I totally agree! Which is where a lot of my conflict arises. I want to like the theme and setting because there's a part of me that is probably a closet weeb, but if I speak with my wallet and support something that is problematic, or consume someone else's culture (creepy), I'm just feeding into the issue and it never improves. Ok I can respect that those are your real views and you are just not trolling at this point. But this is not the place to talk about it. On a note that is relevant someone posted a summery of the AMA today. https://www.reddit.com/r/l5r/comments/66iul3/ama_with_the_lcg_devs_and_story_team_head_going/
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Apr 20, 2017 21:10
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LordNat posted:Ok I can respect that those are your real views and you are just not trolling at this point. But this is not the place to talk about it. I'd like to congratulate LordNat for becoming a moderator. Under his sterling guidance I'm sure we'll learn what parts of living card games are okay to discuss in the living card games thread.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:16
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PJOmega posted:I'd like to congratulate LordNat for becoming a moderator. Under his sterling guidance I'm sure we'll learn what parts of living card games are okay to discuss in the living card games thread. Better to talk about the game than spend hours trying to make white people feel bad for enjoying things.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:18
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LordNat posted:Better to talk about the game than spend hours trying to make white people feel bad for enjoying things. What if that's the REAL game?
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Apr 20, 2017 21:24
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LordNat posted:Better to talk about the game than spend hours trying to make white people feel bad for enjoying things. Now that's some quality trolling. Which subreddit did you get that line from?
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Apr 20, 2017 21:35
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LordNat posted:Better to talk about the game than spend hours trying to make white people feel bad for enjoying things. Burying our heads in the dirt and hoping the problem goes away isn't productive and doesn't really solve the problem. I'm not going to sit here and judge someone for playing, because I love board and card games, too. They're an enormous part of my life. Which is exactly why I want to approach the things I love with a highly critical eye. Especially when one has a nostalgic or historic connection to something, I don't really see an issue with enjoying something while also being highly critical of it (exceptions always apply here). I think that could always be taken a step further by speaking with one's wallet, too. I don't have that connection to L5R or the cultures from which it pulls inspiration, so I don't know if it's for me. If it's guilty of appropriation and insensitivity, I don't want to spend money on it to suggest that's what I want more of. The flip side of this is that it's a game devoted entirely to people of color, and as GrandpaPants mentioned, they've gone as far as gender-swapping some characters, regardless of role, to even-out the playing field a bit. I think both of those things are fantastic. I'm just wary of it straying too far into appropriation or stereotypes, since it can be a really fine line to walk. I think discussing that with others is also really valuable, especially if we all really love this inherently social hobby.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:47
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LordNat posted:Better to talk about the game than spend hours trying to make white people feel bad for enjoying things. On the other hand, I'm discounting the fact that you yourself might be a person of color and are sick of discussing it since it would be a daily occurrence for you and it's also not your job to educate white people on this stuff. If that is the case, then I genuinely apologize for bringing it up in a space where you might feel comfortable and like you generally don't have to deal with it. If that's not the case, then I think it's definitely worth discussing more.
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Apr 20, 2017 22:02
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I don't view L5R's cultural appropriation of feudal Japan and other historical elements of Asian culture as particularly negative, nor do I see it as disenfranchising Asians. My definition of CA is when there isn't a balance power dynamic between the two groups, like for example White people and Native Americans. Internally in the U.S. there may be an imbalance of social power between Caucasian Americans and Asian Americans but globally there is not and L5R draws from global sources not ones unique to Asian Americans.
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Apr 20, 2017 22:29
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Without actually knowing much about the L5R setting or its characters, I'm hesitant to call it appropriation. From what I've seen / heard, they do seem to be treating the cultural aspects with respect, rather than from a position of exploitation or otherness. Aspects like honor and dueling and whatnot are exaggerated, of course, but I think that's more inherent to a fantasy or sci fi setting than it is to an Asian one,where it seems like it's almost natural to paint settings with broad strokes (aka, all orcs are savage brutes), rather than with nuance. I am not enough of a scholar of feudal Japan to say, for example, how seriously people took the concept of honor within the context of the bushido code, so I can't even really speak to the extent of the exaggeration. As I alluded to earlier, my biggest fear would be the sort of appropriation where they took a culture, but simplified it enough so that Westerners can act as a positive contrast. I don't want a Disneyification of the culture, where it becomes an amusement park for the wonder and shock and comfort of Western audiences. If what it does is spark interest, makes people wonder about the places, people, events, and culture that L5R took inspiration from, awesome. If it inspires them to learn more, amazing. Ultimately what I don't see is Hollywood style racism, whether that means white savior syndrome like Iron Fist, whitewashing like The Last Airbender (Avatar seems like a fair comparison in general), using the culture as a quirk of the setting like Firefly, or whatever the gently caress John Hughes was doing. I'm not saying it's particularly exemplary in its depiction, but I don't see anything offensive about it.
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Apr 20, 2017 22:31
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GrandpaPants posted:Without actually knowing much about the L5R setting or its characters, I'm hesitant to call it appropriation. From what I've seen / heard, they do seem to be treating the cultural aspects with respect, rather than from a position of exploitation or otherness. Aspects like honor and dueling and whatnot are exaggerated, of course, but I think that's more inherent to a fantasy or sci fi setting than it is to an Asian one,where it seems like it's almost natural to paint settings with broad strokes (aka, all orcs are savage brutes), rather than with nuance. I am not enough of a scholar of feudal Japan to say, for example, how seriously people took the concept of honor within the context of the bushido code, so I can't even really speak to the extent of the exaggeration. For some people the conclusion is simply that because white culture is the dominant one, anytime a white person uses elements of another culture; that's wrong. Gordon Ramsay can't cook a burrito, white women can't do yoga, and 3 white guys and a white lady can't create a story and game about feudal Japan. Really, it's a situation where I think under a lot of circumstances you'd be hard pressed to find a 12 person jury of the same race that could agree something is really bad and damaging to their culture. Obviously situations like the Washington Redskins and Miles Cyrus twerking are going to get a quicker verdict but if you got 12 Mexicans that operated taco trucks and asked them if they felt disenfranchised by Gordon Ramsay making a burrito they'd probably give you a funny look. Another topic in regards to L5R that gets mentioned a lot is the art. Apparently, as mentioned in the article I linked above, Steve Argyle draws a lot of "white" people. I never noticed but maybe someone else with a better eye for art can weigh in on that.
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Apr 20, 2017 22:43
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It's very hard to justify labeling anything artistic as cultural appropriation.
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Apr 20, 2017 23:22
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L5R is good.
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Apr 20, 2017 23:27
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My only problem with the art so far is that Crane woman wielding a spear or polearm or staff, and it's not her apparent ancestry - it's that every drat time I see her I think my adblocker missed one of those loving "come and play with me my lord, beautiful angels wait for you" ads. Which, in a moment's reflection, is maybe a subconscious problem with sexualization, but we can let one Beautiful Crane~ go, right? Actually I am also having a problem with Togashi Yokuni, who is merely "big" and not "comically jacked." He's missing like fifty more pounds of exaggerated, straining muscle. And you know what I am also concerned that the Crab woman with the hammer is O-Ushi, and it's not because of sexualization - it isn't a sexualized picture - but that the woman is missing about fifty pounds of "gently caress you" attitude.
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Apr 20, 2017 23:40
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Crane being nuts about looks is pretty much part and parcel of their character. When all the Mantis and Crab characters start looking like Cranes, then we got a problem.
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Apr 21, 2017 03:23
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Crane and Scorpion, well Doji and Bayushi, are both going to be attractive. Doji are "beautiful and" while Bayushi are "seductive and." Edit: vvvvvvvvvvvv can't really argue with that. PJOmega fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 05:08
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PJOmega posted:Crane and Scorpion, well Doji and Bayushi, are both going to be attractive. Doji are "beautiful and wearing clothes" while Bayushi are "seductive and in a state that looks like they may have just engaged in the semi-consensual sex of the Wuxia films from the early 2000s."
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Apr 21, 2017 05:20
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Baron Fuzzlewhack posted:Taking a step back from the hype and my excitement for the game and mechanics, and bearing in mind I have no connection to or nostalgia for the setting, one thing that does give me pause is the theme. It's pretty Orientalist, and unless I missed something, being headed up by a bunch of white dudes makes this more problematic. What about the theme or the game potentially makes you uneasy? I'm looking for a specific drill down on your concern, so is there a card or series of cards you think are emblematic of this, or a section of the fluff/world specifically? I'm trying to get a handle on what you have encountered as the alienating/uncomfortable aspects of the game so I can compare it to my impressions as somebody with a great deal of history with the game. I'm unable to see the game without that bias, so being extremely detailed and specific in your concerns would be very helpful at explaining 'it makes me uneasy' and 'straying too far into appropriation or stereotypes'. What do you think is unacceptably stereotyped or appropriated? Is it, on face, problematic because of who made it or because it is based on japanese/chinese/asian settings? Discussion wouldn't be possible if that is true and doesn't seem to be what you're going for, so I assume you've run into other concerning things? Are there certain cards or art that you've seen? aspects of the setting? Again, I have trouble viewing it from an uninolved perspective, and would welcome the opportunity to hear your grievances. I guess I'm just trying to get a handle on what specifically are your concerns with L5R versus generally. From memory, the vast, vast majority of personalities in L5R are visibly asian, matching the setting's origins. There are a huge variety of characters in the setting whom are both men and women at all levels of authority of varying personality types and motivations. They even went out of their way this time to even out the gender skew present at the beginning of the setting. Based on this, I would posit there is no major issue here, and you might be jumping at shadows here, however it'll be interesting seeing the case laid out for me with specifics from an outsider perspective.
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Apr 21, 2017 07:20
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Honestly, white people discussing 'whitewashing' and the associated white guilt is a lot more annoying than the actual material in question. You will be hard pressed to find an actual East Asian person who is offended by or uncomfortable with L5R's fantasy depiction of feudal Japan. Just like how ScarJo was NOT the problem with the GitS movie. (the original director praised the casting choice, even) @PaybackJack: Teaching in Singapore is always stable, though recently the trend is smaller enrollment in schools due to declining birth rates. Singapore is pretty samey to Taiwan so if you're looking for a big change I wouldn't recommend it. Do give it a fair consideration though (;
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Apr 21, 2017 07:56
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Well it's dumb because he says:quote:"More specifically, I wouldn't want a casual observer walking by a game to look at it and feel extremely uncomfortable/alienated/objectified/othered because of the theme, because that sucks and excludes people in what should be a safe, comfortable social setting." The thing is that the people who are going to look at a Samurai themed game and get instantly triggered are the same outrage monkeys that would confront a Caucasian person with dreads and tell them they don't have a right to wear that haircut or would go off on a guy explaining a board game to a woman in a patronizing way as obvious mansplaining. These are people who instantly get triggered into knee-jerk reactions without bothering to know the context or bothering to educate themselves beyond their own perceptions of what should be socially acceptable. Their opinion on what is CA comes down to "Do I perceive that X is a part of these people's non-white culture? Yes, then white people doing it is CA, no matter what!" And this poster suggests that these people who would judge a board game at a glance and without knowing anything more about it are willing to dismiss it and even rage against it because of the cultural appropriation it represents. Frankly, these types of people are not ones we should be attempting to placate and their shallow outrage is actually damaging their cause by obscuring people from understanding when cultural appropriation is actually a big deal and harmful to a culture. It's also worth noting that the majority of people I see with this outrage are white people as well, because typically the people of different ethnicities don't have the social power to be able to stand up and defend themselves to a room full of people that aren't their culture. Which in turn leads back into the concept of white saviors, where these white people, rather than empowering people of color or ethnic minority, instead appropriate their cause for themselves. nyxnyxnyx posted:Honestly, white people discussing 'whitewashing' and the associated white guilt is a lot more annoying than the actual material in question. It's quite a bit different as a dicussion on a global scale versus internally to American culture. Asian Americans might feel disenfranchised by the lack of opportunity they seen in being able to play a character in Ghost in the Shell but on the global scale this is simply an exchange of cultural artifacts, no different than Japan choosing to turn X-Men into an anime with Asian styles characters. Internally in America there is an idea of equality and by removing roles for Asian Americans via whitewashing you do damage that subculture. Unfortunately with the Internet, this debate spills onto the global stage and for a lot of people on the global stage doesn't make any sense. Similarly there was a video a while back where an Asian American woman is stopped by a white dude who tries to hit on her by talking about how he loves Chinese food and tries to guess her ethnicity. I always point to that video as an example for people here because while in America it would be rude to assume someone's racial background, if you guessed that a Taiwanese person was from Taiwan that person would be so happy. L5R to a lot of people here in Taiwan would probably just be mistaken for some kind of Three Kingdoms game and not given a second thought. @Nyx, I don't know if you know Jesse but I tossed him a message last night and got some info from him about it. PaybackJack fucked around with this message at 08:19 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 08:14
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Really wish I could post exerpts from the L5R LARP guide. Now that is some purestrain wtf. Look, as far as weird tokenism is concerned, I don't think any issues will be on FFG's part. They're savvy. Its the players. If anyone in your playgroup starts going "ching chong" or similar please shut them the gently caress down immediately. We tolerate a lot of things in the tabletop scene, and a lot of the things we really really shouldn't tolerate. Just keep an ear out. If you're posting in this thread I highly doubt you'd ever be the problem.
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Apr 21, 2017 08:22
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Yeah, haven't played with Jesse in a while though since we both kind of stopped playing Netrunner. I'm sure I'll see him in L5R soon enough (: Anyway, here are some initial thoughts I had based on what we know: 1. It's good to have a legitimate threat of honor/dishonor wincon so the opponent respects the honor bid. 2. 1 card = 2 honor, Earth > Air ring. 3. Big characters seem to be more cost-effective since they require less upkeep as a percentage of their total cost. Big deploys/marshals also mean you get the bonus 1 Fate for passing first, unless... 4. Is there some benefit to slowplaying the Dynasty phase a la Conquest's deploy stall? Perhaps there are some strong negative attachments?
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Apr 21, 2017 08:28
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