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Also to throw another wrench into the whole "flow of subjective experience" thing, Ketamine is a drug used during surgeries to not only induce pain relief and sedation, but memory loss. You could potentially be entirely aware of what's going on during surgery but because the memory is purged, when you "wake up" afterwards you have no memory of anything past counting backwards from 10. Much like SOMA, there could have been a "you" that continued to have experiences after the point where your memory stopped recording things, but that version of you is gone forever. Sweet dreams! 
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Apr 21, 2017 00:30
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Snak posted:The first is about illusions. The type of illusion we are talking about is not a strictly visual one is a conceptual illusion, not a strictly visual one. I'm not saying you don't know that, I'm just saying it to clear, because I want to try to use what you have said about visual illusions and visual perception to create an example. A conceptual illusion is a type of fallacy, based on drawing incorrect conclusions from available stimuli. Thanks for taking a stab at it. So, if saying "the flow of subjective experience is an illusion" means "the flow of subjective experience is an incorrect conclusion from available stimuli", what would the correct conclusion be? I mean I'm with you on memory being just as reconstructive in nature as perception, but I don't follow the common rider that this somehow impacts the value of phenomenal experience. How does drawing the correct conclusion alter your relation to the world and the things you decide to value?
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Apr 21, 2017 00:33
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Snak posted:If the original "dies" without living for one single firing of a neuron after duplication, than that being has continued unbroken. The scenario in Nier is closer to the latter than the former: the last time 9S and 2B have their memories backed up to the Yorha servers is some unspecified time prior to them fighting Grun, and 9S aborts their scheduled backup after he is recovered from the Copied City due to the server anomaly that leads to him finding out about the human server and that later is used by the machines to infect Yorha at the start of route C. 2B's grief at the end of route A/B is because the 9S that would have replaced the one getting corrupted would have essentially been a divergence who happened to have just slept through Eve's rampage and possibly more, compounded by the fact that this would have been far from the first time that would have happened between them.
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Apr 21, 2017 00:45
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Akuma posted:You, Araganzar, are cloned. Araganzar, the non-clone, is then killed. Araganzar the non-clone is now dead. Just because Araganzar the clone exists doesn't mean that the consciousness of Araganzar the non-clone is experiencing anything anymore. It's not. You are dead. Araganzar the clone is alive. From the point of view of Araganzar the non-clone, who is now dead, that would be less than ideal. Because they're no longer experiencing anything, no matter how much the brain filled in the gaps while they were alive. Araganzar the clone gives no fucks. What, then, is the difference between the original and copy? If the copy is the same as the original and perceives a continuity of experience then saying they are different is purely sentimental. You don't have one stream of conciousness ending in one place and starting in the other. Your conscious life is not a snake burrowing its way through time. Your brain like everything else in the universe works in starts and fits. What you have with the copy is a mind in one discrete state one moment in the original and in another closely related and dependent but still discrete state in the copy the next. What was lost between those two states that would not also be lost if both existed in the original instead?
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Apr 21, 2017 00:50
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I do think there's some people missing an essential element to Nier: Automata's setting. You have to bear in mind, all of these beings, machine or android, are technically not living creatures. By the metric we humans currently employ, they'd not be seen as living beings and they'd definitely not be seen as human. But the characters FEEL human. And that leads to a problem when they are faced with their artifice. When you die, and you awaken, and you aren't dead, you haven't died--but you did die. You can't even remember it, really--you just know it happened. But there's a hole there, and as you go through your life, making new memories, you never stop thinking about that hole. You can't get over the fact that you've forgotten something. You're so lost in thought you don't even notice the glint of sunlight hitting a scope before a white hot laser pierces your skull and You've died and you awaken and you aren't dead, you haven't died--but you did die. You can't remember what happened exactly. You have another hole, a new hole. Second hole. Living creatures live and then die. But you can't die. Are you even alive? You can't remember, there's something important you've forgotten. How surreal, how troubling would it be to go through existence knowing that you've died, and yet you are not dead? Are you truly alive, if you can say such a thing? Maybe once, sure, a miracle; but how many times can you die and not die before it starts to weigh on you, before those holes seem bigger and bigger?
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Apr 21, 2017 00:51
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An important thing to understand by my argument is that I am talking about a thought experiment. I do understand that an actual technological implementation of it starts to blur lines. At one end you have the completely pure, theoretical instantaneous destructive copy, and at the other end you have have making a copy and then throwing the protesting original in a volcano. I think that there is some point that isn't all the way to the theoretical side where it still doesn't count as killing anyone or anything, but pinning that down is a much more complicated issue. Bringing this back to Nier: Automata for a second... The reason the 2B cares so much about killing the 9S that exists now is because, even though there are infinite backups of 9S, it's like she's killing unique new 9Ss every time she kills one. Every interaction she has with a 9S between his backup and her killing him is something that is lost. It's like, the reverse of the thing we're talking about. She keeps killing the copy and bringing the original back to life, but the original always starts from the same place. Irony.or.Death posted:Thanks for taking a stab at it. So, if saying "the flow of subjective experience is an illusion" means "the flow of subjective experience is an incorrect conclusion from available stimuli", what would the correct conclusion be? I mean I'm with you on memory being just as reconstructive in nature as perception, but I don't follow the common rider that this somehow impacts the value of phenomenal experience. How does drawing the correct conclusion alter your relation to the world and the things you decide to value? Well, for one thing, you're less concerned about whether your consciousness being copied kills you...  To slightly more seriously address that, I'm going to open a separate can of worms here and possibly destroy any credibility my previous arguments may have had and bring up Buddhist ideas. Specifically, attachment, impermanence, and aggregates. These are pretty central things in Buddhism, but I'm gonna just do a quick overview of how they are kinda related to what we've been talking about. Attachment refers to all kinds of attachment, to physical sensations, to emotions, even to mental formations like concepts. According to Buddhism, attachment is the cause of suffering. This is because of the natural impermanence of all things. Regardless of how attached we are to any one thing, person, idea, etc, they are all impermanent, and will inevitably change from the form we are attached to. Beings themselves are impermanent and are simply an emergent property of a combination of aggregates. Observing these truths, rather than illusions we naturally perceive, allows us to be more free from suffering of attachment to things that we have no control over.
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Apr 21, 2017 00:54
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"No matter how deep you dig, you will never find something that is you." "I don't believe you can adequately explain how you know that."
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Apr 21, 2017 00:55
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Fedule posted:"No matter how deep you dig, you will never find something that is you." And here we go with the jackpot. Descartes kicked off with cogito ergo sum, and you don't have to agree with his conclusions to accept that as one of the most reasonable starting places. The one thing any of us can be sure of is that we do think. All things that we observe have to go through that filter. Anything that rejects that destroys its own ability to draw conclusions. It doesn't prove itself wrong, but it does reject its own capability to prove anything. There's nothing to make the judgement. I've never given much credit to solipsism, but it always struck me as more robust than the rejection of the self. At least solipsism keeps its ability to respond, even if it's only an echo chamber.
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Apr 21, 2017 01:00
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chiasaur11 posted:I've never given much credit to solipsism, but it always struck me as more robust than the rejection of the self. At least solipsism keeps its ability to respond, even if it's only an echo chamber. From the basis of eastern philosophy, the self is an illusory concept, a conceit of ego and nothing more. Your idea of who you are very rarely takes into account the entirety of your being, to the unconscious actions of your organs and nerves to the systems of bacteria living within your blood and stomach. Your idea of yourself doesn't always even reflect the idea of you that others have. The very idea of you is something that you've been taught, out of convenience. Hindus assert that there is only one Self and it is known by numerous names, commonly referred to as the Godhead, and it is manifested in myriad forms, all of existence, for the purposes of play. It wants to experience all aspects of the world without knowing what the outcome will be. It does this for no other reason besides it is enjoyable, and that is the foundation of creation. The Machines, as I'd noted earlier in the thread, function similarly to this, with the appearance of free will giving way to the fact that all machines are capable of being subsumed by the greater Machine Network. They are all various aspects of this singular (or rather, jointly dual) self that is manifesting itself in different ways for the purposes of experimentation, learning...what you might call a form of play. All to further its own growth and evolution. This cosmic viewpoint is shared by Buddhism, and would be the religious background, most likely, that Taro himself grew up experiencing, though Japan is a very secular society.
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Apr 21, 2017 01:05
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So is this CHIM or what?
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Apr 21, 2017 01:10
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Pwnstar posted:So is this CHIM or what? Midichlorians, actually.
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Apr 21, 2017 01:11
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For people who interested in Hindu Philosophy, look up Vedanta. Vendanta is basically Hindu Philosophy stripped of cultural religious tradition. Obviously, if you're interested in Hinduism, just go for it, but if you just want to understand philosophical concept, Vedanta is easier to parse because there is just so much Hindu text...
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Apr 21, 2017 01:11
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"If all we are is nuts and bolts then you may as well consider the computer alive! Your account is missing the magic, and when the cards are down, mine is simply easier to believe." "People don't like to hear that what it's like to be you is just the byproduct of a very powerful computer. I say if you explain a magic trick with reference to magic, you've not explained a drat thing." I'm sorry, I'll stop quoting (well, paraphrasing) The Swapper now. Fedule fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 01:17
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8-Bit Scholar posted:And that leads to a problem when they are faced with their artifice. When you die, and you awaken, and you aren't dead, you haven't died--but you did die. You can't even remember it, really--you just know it happened. But there's a hole there, and as you go through your life, making new memories, you never stop thinking about that hole. You can't get over the fact that you've forgotten something. You're so lost in thought you don't even notice the glint of sunlight hitting a scope before a white hot laser pierces your skull and While an interesting basis for an existential crisis, this assumes a "copy-at-the-moment-of-death" situation, not a "copy of you continuing from the point of your last backup" situation. From your current perspective, how badly would it gently caress with you if you woke up one day, looked at your watch and said "weird, I slept for like 3 days straight" and found out that in that time period, "you" had gotten killed in a freak bus accident? That would just keep repeating, from your perspective-- there's now been a dozen times that you've woken up after a slightly longer than normal nap to find out that "you" died in combat somewhere. Trippy, thought-provoking, you might need to talk some stuff out with your therapist, but I would think the overwhelming sensation would be that of "Holy poo poo I'm lucky"-- because that set of experiences that keeps waking up, is the one that didn't wake up to die. In fact, if anything, it would probably result in a misplaced invulnerability complex, because "you" didn't die, you can't die, you just slept a bit longer than normal. Until the day you do...but those memories are gone like they didn't exist, because those specific memories don't anymore. Ursine Catastrophe fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 01:22
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8-Bit Scholar posted:From the basis of eastern philosophy, the self is an illusory concept, a conceit of ego and nothing more. Your idea of who you are very rarely takes into account the entirety of your being, to the unconscious actions of your organs and nerves to the systems of bacteria living within your blood and stomach. Your idea of yourself doesn't always even reflect the idea of you that others have. The very idea of you is something that you've been taught, out of convenience. Except some machines are cut off from the network, achieving a true "self" derived from the splintered self. (Which, interestingly, parallels some Christian writing on the nature of self, but, tangent. Focus in on the main point.) Pascal's village consists of machines that made the terrifying step from oneness to having full "Self" and "Other", exchanging knowledge for freedom, and accepting death as a cost for life. It's played up most prominently with Adam, but it's true to an extent for every machine off the network. They might have been mere manifestations of an experimental larger will, but in many cases they grew in the fragmenting to the point where they were no longer compatible with what they were. Towards the end, A2 even scores a victory over the machine network by ending its unity, allowing it to destroy itself.
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Apr 21, 2017 01:25
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It's actually suggested that Pascal's village was never actually cut off from the network. Although it does seem like Pascal was.
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Apr 21, 2017 01:29
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chiasaur11 posted:Except some machines are cut off from the network, achieving a true "self" derived from the splintered self. But we saw that this doesn't stick. Pascal's village destroys itself, the villagers are mind-controlled, their sense of self is robbed and they destroy themselves. Pascal and the children are spared, possibly simply because it wasn't necessary to do the same to them...or perhaps because God is cruel. Either way, the Machine Network destroys their village, by stealing their free will. We see that this seems to be done to robots all over, as the passive City Ruins robots become bloodthirsty and aggressive once the Network seizes control of them. Snak posted:It's actually suggested that Pascal's village was never actually cut off from the network. Although it does seem like Pascal was. Where is this suggested?
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Apr 21, 2017 01:31
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Fedule posted:I'm sorry, I'll stop quoting (well, paraphrasing) The Swapper now. You might get someone to play it, which would be a good service. The Swapper is cool. I'm pretty sure you started with the best bit though.
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Apr 21, 2017 01:32
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Alright, so l I finished up route C, I'm guessing you get another ending by picking 9s in the final fight right? Is there any secret true ending that you have to do some fancy poo poo to get?
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Apr 21, 2017 01:34
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tweet my meat posted:Alright, so l I finished up route C, I'm guessing you get another ending by picking 9s in the final fight right? Is there any secret true ending that you have to do some fancy poo poo to get? You should see both sides of the story. After that, well, it's kind of up to you. Good luck, and don't give up, you bastard!
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Apr 21, 2017 01:34
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tweet my meat posted:Alright, so l I finished up route C, I'm guessing you get another ending by picking 9s in the final fight right? Is there any secret true ending that you have to do some fancy poo poo to get? Yeah that's how you get ending D. There is a true ending, E, but you should go get ending D before you worry about that.
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Apr 21, 2017 01:34
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oh christ you have to slog through the entire credits sequence as a shmup to get ending E? Honestly I feel like the shooter sections are easily the worst parts of this game by a large margin and they drag down otherwise amazing gameplay with a lovely tacked on minigame. I still don't understand why they thought cramming in awkward and simplistic shooter sections everywhere was a good idea.
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Apr 21, 2017 02:03
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tweet my meat posted:oh christ you have to slog through the entire credits sequence as a shmup to get ending E? Honestly I feel like the shooter sections are easily the worst parts of this game by a large margin and they drag down otherwise amazing gameplay with a lovely tacked on minigame. I still don't understand why they thought cramming in awkward and simplistic shooter sections everywhere was a good idea. Don't give up! Why are you posting on this forum when you have lives to save!?
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Apr 21, 2017 02:05
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8-Bit Scholar posted:I do think there's some people missing an essential element to Nier: Automata's setting. I honestly don't know how so many people seem to have been able to effortlessly roll with the game's assertion that all these various war machines are thinking & feeling individuals. Like, the very first time 2B and 9S had one of their  : "hay do u liek me" : "emotions r FORBIDDEN" conversations, I was popped right out of the narrative. If you are designing a self-replicating army of autonomous artificial intelligences to carry out your one last desperate gambit for the salvation of the entire human species, you do not make them horny. 
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Apr 21, 2017 02:09
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tweet my meat posted:oh christ you have to slog through the entire credits sequence as a shmup to get ending E? Honestly I feel like the shooter sections are easily the worst parts of this game by a large margin and they drag down otherwise amazing gameplay with a lovely tacked on minigame. I still don't understand why they thought cramming in awkward and simplistic shooter sections everywhere was a good idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxGRhd_iWuE
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Apr 21, 2017 02:10
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It's also an insanely tough section near the end, but network connectivity apparently lets you do something to make it less of a chore, which I can't use since the latest ps4 update apparently is corrupting people's data. I think I'll just give up, I signed on for an action game, not a bullet hell. Rest in peace my android amigos, I'll try and save you tomorrow.
tweet my meat fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 02:10
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Snak posted:To slightly more seriously address that, I'm going to open a separate can of worms here and possibly destroy any credibility my previous arguments may have had and bring up Buddhist ideas....Regardless of how attached we are to any one thing, person, idea, etc, they are all impermanent, and will inevitably change from the form we are attached to. Beings themselves are impermanent and are simply an emergent property of a combination of aggregates. Hey, whatever helps you frame your thoughts. It's not clear to me how impermanence and the emergent nature of consciousness (which every modern perspective I'm aware of is pretty much on board with) makes phenomenal experience an incorrect conclusion. What is the difference between "you have subjective experience" and "you are an ever-changing emergent property of an ever-changing aggregation of matter and information"? They don't even look like they're statements about the same thing to me, so it seems strange to call one a more correct interpretation of the same stimuli. 8-Bit Scholar posted:Don't give up! Why are you posting on this forum when you have lives to save!? And gods to kill. 2B's wanted this forever, don't let her down.
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Apr 21, 2017 02:11
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I gotta say the final stretch of the game is really amazing, but everything leading up to it was either just decent in the case of ending A with it's solid story but lame final boss and kinda weak endingor straight up bad in the case of ending B being a filler section where you just replay the first ending before you're allowed to see the entertaining content. I doubt I'll replay it ever, but I got my money's worth for sure.
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Apr 21, 2017 02:18
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Ghost of Starman posted:I honestly don't know how so many people seem to have been able to effortlessly roll with the game's assertion that all these various war machines are thinking & feeling individuals. Like, the very first time 2B and 9S had one of their Hey, it's not like making sapient species on accident is new to Nier humanity. Also, it's worth noting that androids were built to basically have giant killboners as a motivation to fight more. Similar endorphin rush. Not exactly a surprise that Nines and 2B would get the hots for each other from an endless cycle of murder.
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Apr 21, 2017 02:42
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Irony.or.Death posted:Hey, whatever helps you frame your thoughts.
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Apr 21, 2017 02:54
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Vermain posted:What SOMA is getting at is that there isn't a functional difference between an "original" (mind A) and a "copy" (mind B). Both mind A and mind B are the "original," because a "person" at its barest level is merely a collection of data. If you can replicate that data perfectly, how can you tell who's the "real" one after the fork appears? I mean, souls objectively exist in the Nier universe, so...
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Apr 21, 2017 02:57
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E:Wow that was uh, not as new as I thought it was apperently
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Apr 21, 2017 03:16
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Edit: found it.
veni veni veni fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 03:28
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veni veni veni posted:Posted this the other night and didn't get a response but I still have no idea what to do. I just got fast travel unlocked and the main quest seems to be pointing to the first fast travel point that unlocks. I get it and it doesn't point me anywhere else and if I use it, the icon just stays there at that same fast travel point. I believe it wants you to travel to either the resistance camp or the bunker, not sure which though. Talk with Anemone/Commander and see if they have any main quest stuff.
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Apr 21, 2017 03:29
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Yeah it was the bunker. Thanks
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Apr 21, 2017 03:31
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tweet my meat posted:It's also an insanely tough section near the end, but network connectivity apparently lets you do something to make it less of a chore, which I can't use since the latest ps4 update apparently is corrupting people's data. I think I'll just give up, I signed on for an action game, not a bullet hell. Rest in peace my android amigos, I'll try and save you tomorrow. Regardless, if you really haven't finished ending E you HAVE TO go back and try again when they fix it. It's the real payoff to the entire game.
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Apr 21, 2017 03:36
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Sindai posted:Wait, do you really not get any help if you're not connected? That's literally the entire point and payoff of ending E, and without it it's probably impossible to finish for the vast majority of people. I assumed the game would fake it. Wow that kinda sucks, they sure don't do that.
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Apr 21, 2017 03:39
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Faking it if offline would ruin the entire point of it, though
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Apr 21, 2017 03:40
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Saagonsa posted:Faking it if offline would ruin the entire point of it, though So hearing about that ps4 update being broken sounds incredibly lovely.
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Apr 21, 2017 03:47
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So not to get all  but has anyone talked about the thematic similarities between this and Undertale? Well, I apologize if I'm just repeating what others have been saying but I just find it interesting.Major spoilers for this game and Undertale to follow: Both games kind of deal with the idea that the best thing for the characters is for you to not play the game. Undertale is very explicit about this and is even disappointed in you if you come back after you get the true ending but I think this game also hints at similar ideas. Like in the intro 2B talks about the endless cycle of life and death and that is a scene you're almost guaranteed to play at least a few times, repeating the exact same thing again. While the game in general is about endless, self perpetuating cycles of misery and death, this opening establishes that the game itself and you playing it is another cycle that keeps repeating. You keep playing and everyone becomes more miserable as you go on. You die and come back over and over again, repeating the same things and even when you don't repeat the same things, the game has you repeat them anyways with further repetitions to get everything as you go back to previous chapters. Then, in the end, everything is reset back to the beginning with a chance things will go differently. You are also given the option to delete your save. While the game doesn't directly link the two things (you can after all get ending E and not delete your save) I would argue they go together because when you don't delete your save the characters are destined to keep repeating the same cycle over and over every time you play. However, while not guaranteed, deleting your save is likely you putting an end to the cycle and you not playing anymore gives the characters the best chance they have. tl;dr: both this and Undertale strongly indicate that the only way these character will ever be happy is if you never play the game again That's how I see it anyways 
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Apr 21, 2017 03:59
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