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tiistai posted:Hang on, let me get this theory straight. So, in this conspiracy scenario Eva now honestly believes Natsuhi murdered Hideyoshi despite being the one who framed her in the first place? Why doesn't she suspect people like Kanon who knew about the plan? Why did they, Eva in particular, leave Natsuhi in the closet if they knew she was there and had killed a person? The first twilight is a conspiracy. Everyone but the murderer believes that everyone who was "killed" is simply in hiding. Hideyoshi's killing is NOT part of this conspiracy, and is the only real body that anyone has seen.
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Apr 20, 2017 19:10
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resurgam40 posted:"I am the cruelest witch"... every time, I think that we have reached the end of Berne's cruelty, and every time she gleefully proves me wrong. It is difficult coming into this with Higurashi fresh in my mind, to see somebody wearing the face of my favorite character to be so monstrous... So I suppose it is worth remembering that Berne isn't that character, but what they left behind- the experiences that they left behind in order to remain the precocious prankster I remember. And what remained... was pain unending. Pain with no release, no prerogative... except to replicate itself in others. Abuse begets abuse. And who was more abused than Bern's progenitor? Bern was the past she left behind. Likewise, Lambda is the conviction that pushed Beatrice (and assumedly, Takano) to commit unspeakable acts in the name of personal goals. They're both incredibly cruel witches, but in different ways.
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Apr 20, 2017 19:15
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curiousCat posted:The first twilight is a conspiracy. Everyone but the murderer believes that everyone who was "killed" is simply in hiding. Hideyoshi's killing is NOT part of this conspiracy, and is the only real body that anyone has seen. I know we've had a lot of arguing about the first twilight since then, but  Krauss obviously isn't included in that, but we have red now that he was killed right after the phone call. How did Kanon (or whoever else) kill Hideyoshi while he was with Erika?
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Apr 21, 2017 00:22
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whitehelm posted:I know we've had a lot of arguing about the first twilight since then, but The "dead" people may not have beent dead. We know they die by the time of the trial, and that no one looking at their corpse would be confused. Neither of those is relevant, especially if there's a conspiracy. So any of them could have done it.
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Apr 21, 2017 01:44
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Qrr posted:The "dead" people may not have beent dead. We know they die by the time of the trial, and that no one looking at their corpse would be confused. Neither of those is relevant, especially if there's a conspiracy. So any of them could have done it. Well, there were really only two times people split from the group. Once, with Hideyoshi and Natsuhi, and once when they broke into Kinzo's study, with Rudolf, Kyrie, Gohda, and I think Shannon. Do you contend that the second group went and killed the "hiding" people during that trip?
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Apr 21, 2017 02:01
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How was he killed?
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Apr 21, 2017 02:41
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tiistai posted:How was he killed? It's never been brought up. It's just "he dead lol" and that's it. But my question is: I forget if the family cares anymore where he is. Erika seems much more intent on getting her
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Apr 21, 2017 03:14
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bman in 2288 posted:It's never been brought up. It's just "he dead lol" and that's it. But my question is: I forget if the family cares anymore where he is. Erika seems much more intent on getting her Oh sorry, I was talking about Hideyoshi. Krauss's death could be whatever, no way to figure that out.
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Apr 21, 2017 03:28
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Cyouni posted:Well, there were really only two times people split from the group. Once, with Hideyoshi and Natsuhi, and once when they broke into Kinzo's study, with Rudolf, Kyrie, Gohda, and I think Shannon. Do you contend that the second group went and killed the "hiding" people during that trip? That's definitely a theory... Were any clues given that might indicate that they went and did this, though? If there are no such clues, we're gonna run straight into Knox's Eighth. "It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented." e: I am deeply CONFUSED about how to feel regarding this AVATAR. Allow me to speak, though: whoever has done this has spelled "sentence" INCORRECTLY. Skylight fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 03:52
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e: quote is not edit
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Apr 21, 2017 03:57
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Congrats on your avatar, Dlanor is ready to slice up some untruths! edit: I wonder how Erika as a witch and a detective is going to work. I guess this time she can use red truths by herself? Either way, I'm ready for someone in the story to find out the truth behind the murders. I'm not so sure on the conspiracy theory that the Ushiromiya adults would kill their children, but instead think it's gotta be the the servants who killed George, with Jessica going along with the plan because she empathizes with Kanon. Genji is also still alive because Erika never proclaimed him dead. EagerSleeper fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 03:59
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EagerSleeper posted:I wonder how Erika as a witch and a detective is going to work. I guess this time she can use red truths by herself? Knox's SECOND. "It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique." If she is actually playing by the rules, she won't do that...hopefully. e: She'll probably find some way to use it without it being a detective technique just to be a jerk, though. Skylight fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 04:08
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Cyouni posted:Well, there were really only two times people split from the group. Once, with Hideyoshi and Natsuhi, and once when they broke into Kinzo's study, with Rudolf, Kyrie, Gohda, and I think Shannon. Do you contend that the second group went and killed the "hiding" people during that trip? Well, I think one of the hiding people killed all of the other hiding people who weren't already dead - I'm accusing one of the "dead" people of being a killer so why not take it all the way. So then there's just the question of who killed them. Erika split off from the group after they found Hideyoshi's body so she could track down Natsuhi, so there were no eyes on everyone else and maybe someone left to kill the killer. As an alternative possibility for Hideyoshi's murderer, there's the chance that everything he did was acting for Natsuhi's benefit and there was no killer in the room at the time. Erika never looked at the body, he just got carried off to an unknown location, because while Erika may be THE detective by red text she certainly lacks the qualifications to be A detective. Then he was murdered by someone else (maybe Rudolf or Gohda, who were the ones carrying him, maybe someone else). Or for that matter he was killed by Eva, who definitely ran in first - the others explicitly could not tell what was going on in the room when she initially went to him. Motivation for that gets difficult, though. Skylight posted:Knox's SECOND. "It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique." If she is actually playing by the rules, she won't do that...hopefully. I still contend that they aren't following the rules, and that part of their definition of being a witch is "we don't have to follow the rules". We even have examples of Beatrice doing that - she'll assert in red that a room is a closed room and nothing could get in from outside, then claim that she sent a magic stake girl in from outside to kill them. Qrr fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 04:24
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EagerSleeper posted:Genji is also still alive because Erika never proclaimed him dead. Erika didn't but he's been proclaimed dead for sure.   "Hmm? Red? Well, there's no point in me holding out against you. That's right, At a glance, anyone could confirm that these corpses are dead, so it is absolutely impossible that they are just people playing dead." "And, since there's no need to hold off on it anymore, I'll confirm that all the victims so far are dead. George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, and Genji really are dead. How could they be playing dead with their necks sliced open like that?"
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Apr 21, 2017 04:34
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Edit: Nevermind.
whitehelm fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 04:35
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tiistai posted:Erika didn't but he's been proclaimed dead for sure. Virgilia's red truth that "anyone looking at George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, or Genji's corpses could confirm at a glance that they are dead" has been said before by other goons to be a tautology, so it's not damning to my theory that at least one of the people in the cousin room was pretending to be dead. If you see a corpse, then yeah you'll verify that it's dead. But what if you see something that is not actually a corpse? Such as a person pretending to be a corpse. Then it's possible to say that not everyone is dead in the room. The red truth "At a glance, anyone could confirm that these corpses are dead, so it is absolutely impossible that they are just people playing dead." can be slipped out of by asking what a corpse means in terms of the red truth. It's been shown before that the term 'Kinzo' can apply to anyone who's inherited the headship of the Ushiromiya family, and in the last thread I also theorized that there was an issue with 'Shannon' dying, but 'Sayo' remaining alive to kill George. I'm going to say that George and Maria are definitely dead in the cousin room, but Jessica killed off her personality as 'Jessica', and now remains as 'angry phone caller'. She's bullying her mom for what she did to Cliff Baby. Lastly, "And, since there's no need to hold off on it anymore, I'll confirm that all the victims so far are dead. George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, and Genji really are dead." There's no need to pay attention to the non-red parts, so it winds up being a repeat of the previous red truth. A lot of the red truth can be wormed out of because there's a lot of gaps in them. They are not as damning as they seem. I was expecting Battler to honestly call Erika out on those non-decisive red truths, and was really surprised when he got impaled. EagerSleeper fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 05:29
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Skylight posted:That's definitely a theory... Were any clues given that might indicate that they went and did this, though? If there are no such clues, we're gonna run straight into Knox's Eighth. "It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented." That "to" in the first sentence will continue to irritate ME. Qrr posted:I still contend that they aren't following the rules, and that part of their definition of being a witch is "we don't have to follow the rules". We even have examples of Beatrice doing that - she'll assert in red that a room is a closed room and nothing could get in from outside, then claim that she sent a magic stake girl in from outside to kill them. The red truth always continually has the implicit caveat of "outside of magic" or "by humans".
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Apr 21, 2017 05:33
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edit: doh me read good.
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Apr 21, 2017 05:36
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EagerSleeper posted:It's been shown before that the term 'Kinzo' can apply to anyone who's inherited the headship of the Ushiromiya family
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Apr 21, 2017 06:05
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tiistai posted:Source your quotes Probably talking about the EP4 final debate where Beato goes all "everyone acknowledged Kinzo was in the room with them" and Battler then shoots down Kinzo-dragon with "Kinzo could be the inherited name of the family head, so people can acknowledge Kinzo without grandfather being alive". Edit: More precisely Beato(Red): All of those who met at the family conference acknowledged the presence of Kinzo. ...back and forth about body doubles, which Beato dismisses with Red saying "No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight. No matter what disguise might be used, they would not mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight!" Battler(Blue): My theory is that Kinzo's name is passed on as a title of the Ushiromiya family head. Ushiromiya Kinzo was already dead. And he passed his name on to someone else. Everyone acknowledged it! And therefore, 'all of those present at the family conference acknowledged the existence of Kinzo'! Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 06:18
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Shinji117 posted:Probably talking about the EP4 final debate where Beato goes all "everyone acknowledged Kinzo was in the room with them" and Battler then shoots down Kinzo-dragon with "Kinzo could be the inherited name of the family head, so people can acknowledge Kinzo without grandfather being alive". Thank you, this is an excellent source right here. This is pretty much it. One of the things that can defeat the whole "people are proclaimed dead in red truths" thing. If 'Kinzo' is a nebulous term that can apply to anyone and be transferred around, then so can other names be considered such terms as well.
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Apr 21, 2017 06:48
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EagerSleeper posted:Thank you, this is an excellent source right here. This is pretty much it. One of the things that can defeat the whole "people are proclaimed dead in red truths" thing. If 'Kinzo' is a nebulous term that can apply to anyone and be transferred around, then so can other names be considered such terms as well. Of course, given it was said in the final battle of EP 4, Kinzo is an inherited name has the same weight as Small Bombs. It could also be that Krauss and Natsushi just came clean in EP 4 and wheeled Kinzo's corpse into the dining room, where everyone acknowledged his presence and death. Then the shooting began.
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Apr 21, 2017 06:54
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ZiegeDame posted:Of course, given it was said in the final battle of EP 4, Kinzo is an inherited name has the same weight as Small Bombs. I think name shenanigans are an alright theory, especially since it's been shown that Shannon's name of Sayo, and Kanon being relunctant to reveal his real name make it seem that secondary are a big deal. But I do appreciate the image of Krauss getting loving fed up, carrying a corpse that has been dead for a very long time around him down the stairs, saying "here, is this what you all wanted to see?!", and then killing everyone with shotguns. But that would include Natsuhi in that scenario though...
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Apr 21, 2017 07:08
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EagerSleeper posted:I think name shenanigans are an alright theory, especially since it's been shown that Shannon's name of Sayo, and Kanon being relunctant to reveal his real name make it seem that secondary are a big deal. But I do appreciate the image of Krauss getting loving fed up, carrying a corpse that has been dead for a very long time around him down the stairs, saying "here, is this what you all wanted to see?!", and then killing everyone with shotguns. But that would include Natsuhi in that scenario though... We know there's more than one Battler, so name shenanigans could definitely be legit.
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Apr 21, 2017 08:47
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double names are definitely a plot point. I see no reason why Shannon/Kanon has the two names part of their story if it's not going to affect anything.
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Apr 21, 2017 08:53
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  Video: Goodbye...Ironically, it looked just like what he had done to Beato with blue wedges in the 4th game... Battler had died quite some time ago. No, in this place, the concept of death means nothing except that one has stopped thinking. Therefore, in a sense, Battler was not dead. After being defeated in a fight over the truth and surrendering, he no longer had the strength to think of a way to resist. That's... what made him dead. Dlanor's massive longsword, which had been left in place of a tombstone, fastened Battler to the spot even after his death... This was being lit by a faint light seeping out of a high, high skylight. Quiet footsteps rang out across this still cathedral... From the darkness behind a pillar, a woman slowly stepped forwards.  BGM: Worldend (solo) Just like they had been the whole time in the Golden Land, her eyes had no light in them, and were still muddied over with gray. This person was once unable to even drink black tea to her satisfaction by her own will, but though it was slow, and though there was no life in her eyes, she was, surprisingly, walking. Then, with slow, deliberate steps... she reached Battler, who was still dead and pierced... Then, she slowly... touched Battler. She tugged... on his sleeve. However, Battler showed no reaction... ...When she realized that it wasn't sleep... but death... The witch with the hopeless gaze... let her head hang even lower... Then... she quietly... whispered...  Beato... softly touched Battler... Then, she pressed her forehead against Battler's chest. There was no longer... any heartbeat. It wasn't just because he had surrendered. It was because the witches had chased him from the game board. So from now on... Battler would never... return... So from now on... The Golden Witch Beatrice... had lost her reason... to exist...   Then, the Golden Witch... completed... her task... and scattered... as a spray of gold.  BGM: None ...There was a faint aroma of good black tea. Beato stared blankly at the surface of the tea. There was Virgilia, continuing her knitting, along with me and... Dlanor, talking to each other.  BGM: Voiceless A recollection of Battler's memory, which Dlanor's sword must have given him as it pierced him... A recollection of that time Dlanor had come to visit the tea party in the Golden Land...   "Bring it on. I'll be your opponent. Come at me with all you've got." "I PROMISE. With everything I've GOT."...Dlanor. I'd thought she was an ruthless killer doll without a heart, but maybe she actually is pretty approachable. Though of course, neither of us will show any mercy when fighting over the game board. For a while, we gazed at the rain-drenched rose garden as we quietly enjoyed our tea.   "YES. They are commandments conceived by my FATHER." "Hidden doors must not exist. That's Knox's 3rd, right? That means there's no need for detectives to even look for hidden doors. Sounds pretty ridiculous."Bernkastel said it herself. She said that, because they were forbidden by Knox's 3rd, even searching for hidden doors was a waste of time. I'd like to counter that by saying it isn't so uncommon for a rich family's mansion to have a hidden door or two built into it. But apparently, that sort of rule works perfectly well in the mystery genre. By the way, there exist many wonderful mysteries in which hidden doors appear, and where hidden doors are the theme. Of course, this is limited to novels which have the 'premise' that hidden doors exist. If that 'premise' doesn't exist, hidden doors must not exist. So because that 'premise' doesn't exist, there is no need to search for hidden doors. I think that's probably the essence of her ridiculous argument. I get the feeling that the detective trying to expose the truth and the illusion trying to confuse it with a mixture of truth and lies... are getting blended together, leading to a bizarre form of argument similar to a Devil's Proof. Making a closed room murder seem to be accomplished by a witch with magic is fantasy. Exposing that it was a human's crime done with tricks is anti-fantasy. Considering all possibilities to expose those tricks is mystery.  Let's say a hidden door is hidden in a way that there would be no clues. Would claiming that a hidden door therefore exists even though a detective couldn't find it... be anti-mystery? ...That's enough of that. This argument is too far of a digression from the riddles I'm actually supposed to be solving. My fight is very simple. I'm only fighting to explain how it was possible for a human to carry out these crimes which were supposedly carried out by a witch. This whole discussion about 'mystery' and 'anti' doesn't serve any purpose. That's why I didn't have any particular interest regarding these rules known as the Knox Decalogue...   "It doesn't work for me. There's something strange about making it possible to deny the existence of all hidden doors without investigating. It's about as dubious as a Devil's Proof. Even though it's supposed to be the exact opposite of fantasy, it somehow feels like it's the same kind of argument." "..." "...Ah, I shouldn't have said that. Your dad was the one who made them, after all." "Do not WORRY. After all, there are some who say it is nothing more than a GAME." "...To be honest, yes. If there was ever a detective who said he didn't need to look for hidden doors because they must not exist, everyone should start looking around on the floor to see if some of his screws had come loose..." "In that case, Battler, let us say that the 3rd Commandment doesn't exist. In that case, what would happen to closed room mysteries...?"...What if Knox's 3rd, 'hidden doors are forbidden', didn't exist...? "...In other words, hidden doors would always work just fine as the standard trick for closed rooms." "This does not refer to hidden doors with hints or FORESHADOWING. It refers only to doors that even the detective cannot find because, of course, they are HIDDEN." "Battler-kun, you often fight by using a Devil's Proof to assume an undiscoverable element X. That's what this is about." "That'd be horrible. The closed room mystery genre wouldn't be worth reading at all." No one would want to try solving the riddle from the beginning if they knew the answer might just be an unforeseeable hidden door.  "...If you don't have some guarantee that no hidden doors exist, you don't really feel like trying to reason it out. I see. Knox's 3rd is necessary. Without that, it wouldn't be worth reading closed room mysteries." "If you don't feel like trying to reason it out... what does that mean...?" "It means you don't even feel like reading it." "That's IT. Humans are weak creatures, who can't even think unless they have proof that reasoning is POSSIBLE." "...That reasoning is possible. In other words, they need encouragement that they can solve it if they do their best."That... might be true. It's the same with exercising. If you're told to run around the campus ten times, you can tough it out. However, if you don't know how many times you're supposed to run around it, you'd probably get tired out before you made it around three times. The same thing goes for thinking and reasoning. Humans view a problem differently depending on whether or not it's guaranteed to be solvable...   "...Ah. I always thought it was just a classic line, but it did also have that effect." "To put it harshly, as long as the detective doesn't say that, readers won't feel like trying to solve it no matter how much they love solving mysteries." "...Weren't you like that yourself in the previous GAMES...?" "..."Now that I hear it, maybe that really was the case. Maybe my fight against Beato really began in the 2nd game. At first, I didn't seriously try to tackle the closed room riddles Beato threw at me. After all, I knew nothing except that people had died in a closed room, and the windows and doors were all locked from the inside. I had basically no hints. So I refused to argue on the grounds that I couldn't fight because the lack of clues made reasoning impossible. ...After that, Beato sneered at me, didn't she... asking whether I would repeat that over and over forever in an endless repetition of moves... At that time, Beato said this:   Then, she said she'd give me certain information that couldn't be denied, and created the rule called the red truth. Once we reached that point, the curtain finally rose on my battle with Beato...  "Beatrice. She's a strange PERSON. Though riddles are the only holes witches can live within, she began to give you the red truth, a method by which those riddles could be SOLVED."You could say that the red truth is a hint Beato gives me so that I can compete in this war of reasoning. Like candy. Because I've been given hints, it's like she's saying... try and solve it... ...it can be solved. A enigma which is guaranteed to be solvable... can't be called a true 'enigma'.  "My, my. That does seem logical. She truly is a strange child." "..."Beato gave no answer. With gray eyes, she did nothing but blankly gaze at the steam rising from her black tea... "My father created the Decalogue to act as a crutch for the power of THINKING. It most certainly wasn't made as a way to arrogantly decide things." "...A crutch... for the power of thinking..." "That's RIGHT. By Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED. This does not only mean that one is forced to avoid making theories that are not supported by CLUES." "If you turn it around, it means that the one proposing the riddles is forced to display clues which lead to the solution." "...So, in other words, if you follow the Decalogue, all riddles must have hints, and therefore, it's guaranteed that finding the solution is possible."I see... so this is what they mean by a crutch for the power of thinking. If you can believe that it's solvable, you start feeling the desire to have a go at those riddles. If you're capable of believing that hints do exist, you get fired up about rereading the story to search for them...  "You seem to think that the Knox Decalogue is a series of restrictions imposed by the one who made the MYSTERY, but it is also vital for the READERS." "...By using the Decalogue as a crutch, we are given the courage needed to use reasoning, as well as the willpower to reread the tale several times in search of the clues we know must be hidden THERE." "...It's like the lid of a jar of jam which is too tight and won't open. Like Mom always used to say, if you think you can't open it, then it really won't open no matter how hard you try." "...The same thing happens in sports. They say that whether or not you have a strong image of yourself and believe you can win no matter what has a large impact on the records."In that case. The Knox Decalogue isn't really a set of arrogant and strict restrictions. You can also see it as a way to encourage readers, who are trying to solve the mystery, by telling them to give it their all since it's definitely solvable... "...That's an interesting way to interpret it. However, I've heard that not all of the detective novels around the world follow the Decalogue all the time, right? When you bump into one of those, won't you feel tricked...?" "Even the Decalogue is nothing more than a single INTERPRETATION, and it does not apply to all mystery STORIES. Though among fundamentalists of my father's work, it seems there are those who harshly criticize works which violate the Decalogue and call them HERESY..."There's no end of arguments like this in the mystery world. Was this or that famous detective novel really a fair mystery--in other words, one that followed Knox's Decalogue? That sort of argument is already an eternal theme of the mystery world. In fact, in mystery discussions, arguments like these sometimes become more heated than talk about the actual tricks...  That's right. When fighting with the Decalogue, there's just one thing you want guaranteed from the beginning. In other words, you want a guarantee that this detective novel will adhere to the Decalogue. If a work labels itself as an orthodox mystery, then you have nothing to worry about. However, the mystery genre contains many unorthodox sub-genres within it. Does that mean that trying to use reasoning in an unorthodox detective novel is a complete waste of time...? "...Looking at it that way, it really does feel arrogant." "YES. I also find it extremely sad that my father's Decalogue has been used as such an arrogant weapon." "...Though you just fought with Beato using the Decalogue as a weapon. Can I take that as proof that this game world of Beato's follows the Knox Decalogue...?" "..."When I asked that, there was a strange silence. Virgilia, Dlanor, and of course, Beato... all remained silent for a while... Almost as though my question had touched at the core of something...  "Why...?" "This is a game that this child made. A game to decide which of the two of you will win. This child has called it a confrontation between mystery and fantasy. But unfortunately, she has never called it an orthodox mystery. That means you have no guarantee that it follows the Decalogue." "...But at the same time, <Miss> Beatrice has said that this game is a contest between you and HER. In other words, there is a chance that you could win." "In other words, you're trying to say that reasoning is possible?" "..." "...If you asked this child, she would probably say that reasoning is possible." "...However, just as she is the challenger and you are the challenged, the two of you are different creatures. Something Beato might have proposed thinking it is solvable... may or may not be something that is solvable for you as well."For example, let's say we propose a simple riddle that any Japanese person would know. However, if the person we're telling this riddle to is a foreigner with a Japanese-English dictionary in their hand, it might be almost impossible to solve. In other words, it's possible to have a one-sided 'solvable problem' which might be easy for the questioner but extremely difficult for the person trying to solve it... By the way, do you know of the foreign riddle: 'Why do dragons sleep all day?' The answer is 'Because they fight knights'. It's a riddle from the English realm, so it might be a little tough for a Japanese person. "For that reason, I cannot promise that this tale is something you will absolutely be able to solve. However, I can promise you one thing. I will guarantee it with the red truth." "...What?" It was... the one guarantee... that all those who try to use reasoning desire. "I don't know whether my father's Decalogue will apply to that answer or lead you to IT." "...However, when you run into a tight spot and want a compass for your reasoning, please try using my Decalogue if you REMEMBER. It might give you renewed courage and possibly even some new DISCOVERY..." "Thank you. If I'm truly stuck, I'll think about your fighting style. Are you sure it's alright to help out an enemy like this?" "Pay that no MIND. I came to this tea party without a GIFT. I hope you enjoy this in place of a SNACK. And... if you come face to face with me AGAIN, there probably won't be time to speak of something so CASUALLY."...Knox's Decalogue... and Virgilia's red truth.  In other words, Beato wants me to be capable of solving it. Isn't that... proof that reasoning is possible...? Of course, that's from Beato's point of view, and it doesn't necessarily mean that reasoning is possible for me... Compared to before now, when I didn't even know whether reasoning was possible or impossible, that one line might give me a great deal of courage... At least it has the power to silence any negative thoughts about it just being useless anyway... "...Unless the other party assures you that reasoning is possible, you won't do it. It's almost like love between shy, young people." "Love?" "Yes. Unless you have proof that the other person loves you first, you don't want to love them back. Right?"Both boys and girls... want to hear someone else say they love them first. That's their dream. If they're in love, they don't want to love the other person until they're sure this person loves them back. After all, there's nothing as painful as a one-sided love, and the scars of the heart that leaves behind last a long time. Because they are afraid of that pain, they want proof that the other person loves them first more than anything else... "I SEE, that's an interesting way to explain the relationship between writer and reader in a detective NOVEL."Yes, maybe you could liken detective novels to that. Both the writer and the reader... first want the other party to say they will solve it (that it can be solved). Until the writer is assured that the reader will certainly have a go at the riddle if they propose it, they don't want to write their story. The same goes for the readers. Until they are assured that they will certainly be able to solve the riddle if they try, they don't want to read the story. Because they don't want to write what they consider a masterpiece and be hurt when no one reads it. Because they don't want to reason about what they consider a masterpiece and be hurt when they realize it was all useless.   "...Even though they really do want it, they don't have the courage to reveal their feelings, so they wait uncomfortably for the other person to confess... and by the time summer ends, nothing's happened. Heheh, sometimes they'll even go out with a different person. That's what my first love was like, ihihi."Along with these one-sided feelings they can't express, they lament the passage of a summer which will never come again, and the days of their youth end. The writer who wouldn't write until he gained the support of readers... goes for all eternity without releasing his maiden work. The reader who waited for the writer's rise to fame... goes their whole life without knowing the joy of the mystery genre. "...Battler-kun. When does this 'the chicken or the egg' type of shy love, reach the level where it progresses into mutual love...?" "Well, that's probably when things start to pile up. It starts as a relationship between friends, they communicate with each other more, and when the two both reach the level where they're sure... They'll think 'I like this person and they surely like me', well, then they probably just naturally become a pair of lovers." "My impression up until now is that relationships which start with a sudden confession of love tend to break up more often, whereas pairs who never actually confess to each other but realize that they've always been together usually stay together for a surprisingly long time." "In other words, this happens after the two of them trust each other and a relationship of trust is BORN, is what you're SAYING." "...Maybe. It's a bit odd. I've always thought the mystery genre was a battle between the writer and the reader, but maybe it actually isn't." "Yes. It's something which can't go on without a relation built on mutual trust, a relationship with love." "..." "..." "...*giggle*. Though it doesn't look like anything more than a pair of elementary schoolers bullying each other to me... Heheheheh."Virgilia joked at us in a middle-aged woman sort of way. Still, though I'm not expecting friendship or a trusting relationship, I can accept her as a rival. Beato is fighting at full force, trying to make me acknowledge that she's a witch. So I'll respond to that and go all out trying to deny that witches exist. "How do you know that, <Miss> Beato is fighting at full FORCE?" "I can tell by looking." "It isn't as though she has proclaimed in red that she was fighting you at full FORCE. And yet, you still have no DOUBTS? You are the one who said you wouldn't believe anything except the red TRUTH." "...Nn..." "*giggle*. I'm sure this is the stage where communication increases and you learn not to doubt your relationship which Battler-kun was mentioning earlier."Virgilia and Dlanor giggled together. One guy, multiple women. The topic is love. Wait a sec, isn't this the worst formation for getting made fun of? When I tried to change the subject and bring back a proper mood for a tea party in the rainy Golden Land by clumsily searching for a more noble subject, Virgilia saw right through me and laughed at me...  BGM: None ...Yeah, that's right... Virgilia and Dlanor... have given me so many hints... And yet, I barely thought about it at all... By now, it's all too late... ...'Let me think'. Now that everything is too late already and I have an endless amount of time on my hands, let me think.  With the red truth, Virgilia guaranteed that at the very least, Beato left enough room in this tale for me to achieve victory. That red truth guarantee will once again... give me the power to start my heart beating... And... there's the crutch of the Decalogue, which Dlanor lent me. Dlanor herself warned me in the beginning that the Decalogue isn't so almighty that it can solve all riddles. However, she had said something about how it could be used as a method to solve... no, to take on riddles. ...Let me try it. 
Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 12:26
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You can't keep a good Battler down. E: Hah. I only just noticed that the logo for the game has changed from Beatrice to what I assume is Battler reading a murder mystery. Cute. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 12:51
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Without love, it cannot be solved. I guess that's emblematic of this 5th game - with Lambdadelta as GM, she doesn't really care that much as to whether Battler can actually solve the mystery (and she's said before I can't remember exactly when that she doesn't know why Beato makes so many superfluous or risky moves - Beato's love for Battler (i.e. the mystery author's love for their audience) means she has to leave clues so that he can solve it, whereas LD would just be like, screw it, Victim X is in a (pun not intended) hermetically sealed vault deep under Rokkenshima and still managed to get stabbed through the face, *cacklecackle*, it's coz I'm a witch). So she constructs this loveless mess of circumstantial evidence that Bern and (terrible, terrible) Erika can just waltz into and blow wide open to prove that a witch didn't do it. But since we've established that Beato's real motivation is not to assert her existence but instead get Battler to remember his sin, the whole thing is empty and self-serving, and kinda mechanical (turn the Knox's Decalogue crank, of course Natsuhi did it coz no-one else could have). But anyway, roll on Game 6! Excited to see how Battler gets off that sword (pulling it through himself hiltwards like Dante from the first Devil May Cry?)
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Apr 21, 2017 13:05
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We are, for the record, still in Episode 5. The ???? is quite long this time.
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Apr 21, 2017 13:09
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ProfessorProf posted:We are, for the record, still in Episode 5. The ???? is quite long this time. I've been waiting for this 
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Apr 21, 2017 13:13
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Ralphomon posted:Excited to see how Battler gets off that sword (pulling it through himself hiltwards like Dante from the first Devil May Cry?) What do you do when you get to the hilt? Tip it over, then slide all the way back down to to the other end? That sounds very painful and inefficient.
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Apr 21, 2017 13:13
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how long is this episode? and more specifically, how long before erika gets her rear end kicked? Also Battler is so suave, I'm loving it.
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Apr 21, 2017 13:46
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There are two more updates in this episode. As to Erika's rear end-kicking, don't be ridiculous - how could anyone defeat the Witch of Truth at a game of uncovering the truth?
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Apr 21, 2017 13:46
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Easy because just like her maker they don't really do what their title says, Miracles just looks for worlds where what she wants happens not make the impossible happen. And Truth as shown earlier doesn't really do that much thinking.
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Apr 21, 2017 14:08
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EagerSleeper posted:A lot of the red truth can be wormed out of because there's a lot of gaps in them. This is very true, but are you certain you want to do that?
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Apr 21, 2017 14:39
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ProfessorProf posted:In other words, Beato wants me to be capable of solving it. Isn't that... proof that reasoning is possible...? Of course, that's from Beato's point of view, and it doesn't necessarily mean that reasoning is possible for me... Compared to before now, when I didn't even know whether reasoning was possible or impossible, that one line might give me a great deal of courage... At least it has the power to silence any negative thoughts about it just being useless anyway... Huh. "Without love, it cannot be seen"... I wasn't thinking of this interpretation when I first heard that phrase, I thought it meant some soppy, power of love nonsense meant to distract us from the mystery, and give credence to the bloody actions of a crazy person. But the way Dlanor and Battler talk about it here, it's more akin to faith than love- faith that the question being posed is meant to be solved, and can be solved. It's an interesting idea, given that love is a matter of faith as well- what proof do we have that the people who love us actually do, other than their word, or the things they do for us, or what have you? If we require further proof than this, than faith is broken, in our own heads as well as in the heads of our loved ones, because doubt is a poison there; unrequited love is a tragedy we'd all like to avoid, but for the sort of person that has to constantly question that love is real, all love is unrequited- hell, from a cynical viewpoint, that's even true in the best of times, since to confess and accept love is a leap of faith, a declaration of optimism to a world that often likes to crush such things because it can. So to get around that, we have the idea of a mutual vow of silence, a secret agreement to never really ask... which the Knox Decalogue offers for the mystery genre: as other people have noted, it's less a set in stone law (the way Erika is treating it, as well as a cudgel to crush the weak) and more a set of guideline, the main point of which is "hey, don't play fast and loose with your rules or trick the reader too much, because that makes readers feel cheated and drives them away." Because if we are given a mystery we are told is solvable, and it turns into some terrible "Gotcha" later on... it feels obscene. In the classic mystery, this question is seen as a given, so we don't really think about it; of course the truth will out, and of course justice will be done, or else why are we here? It's a narrative convention that the detective will answer the riddle, uphold the innocent victims, and catch the bad guy, as well as the fact that there will be "detective", "riddle", and "Bad guy"- that's why mysteries are mysteries. If the mystery isn't solved and there is no central bad guy, that's noir. If the innocent victim isn't defended, that's tragedy. If the bad guy isn't caught and lives to kill again, that's horror. All of which are fine if you are expecting them, but if something turns into another thing that you didn't ask for while reading it... it's hard not to feel betrayed.
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Apr 21, 2017 15:09
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When did Asamu die? Was it before or after the family conference 6 years ago? I know it's what prompted Battler to leave the family, but I'm not clear whether she was already dead at the last one he was at.
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Apr 21, 2017 15:09
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CottonWolf posted:When did Asamu die? Was it before or after the family conference 6 years ago? I know it's what prompted Battler to leave the family, but I'm not clear whether she was already dead at the last one he was at. The whole reason Battler got mad and left was because Rudolf married Kyrie so soon after Asumu's death.
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Apr 21, 2017 15:18
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tiistai posted:The whole reason Battler got mad and left was because Rudolf married Kyrie so soon after Asumu's death. Yeah, I was just trying to work out whether that was in the middle of happening at the last family conference. i.e. was Kyrie there or not?
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Apr 21, 2017 15:20
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CottonWolf posted:Yeah, I was just trying to work out whether that was in the middle of happening at the last family conference. i.e. was Kyrie there or not? Well since Battler was gone by that time then it implies that they had married by then, right? Death -> Marriage -> Battler leaves -> Family conference with no Battler.
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Apr 21, 2017 15:25
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