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Alienwarehouse posted:Oh, I agree. The thing that pisses me off the most about conservative Christians is that they explicitly ignore the foundational principles of the New Testament. They consciously ignore everything Jesus had to say about poverty, greed, wealth, and envy. In a way, you could make the argument that Jesus was the first socialist. Progressive Christians ignore most of Jesus's teachings too, though. That's the thing about religions is you get to interpret them however you want, and luckily for us the Bible has an equally credible terrifying and violent Jesus if you want to take that interpretation instead. He definitely said some things about roasting the unfaithful and sinful: "As it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man ... the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot ... the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all ... Remember Lot's wife." Luke 17:26-32 "So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:49-50 He also was not a fan of family or marriage structure. "And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." Matthew 19:29, Mark 10:29-30, Luke 18:29-30 "They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage." Luke 20:35 Jesus was totally ok with blaming racial groups and entire generations for problems. "The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs." Mark 7:26-27, Matthew 15:22-26 "Ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. ... Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? ... Upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar." Matthew 23:31-35 Sure Jesus also talked a lot about helping the poor, but he spent a lot of time talking about other nonsense too. It's not possible to accurately attack their beliefs from within the Bible because there's a lot of internal inconsistencies and anyone can pick out just about any message they want.  E: Year of the Dog
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Apr 21, 2017 02:51
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aww yeah, groundfloor of another round of copy-pasted bible quotes. Did yall know jesus cursed a tree? pretty hosed up
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Apr 21, 2017 03:32
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people say that the gospel is about love but why does this voluminous and ancient collection of texts talk about other facets of the human condition?? chew on that,christailures
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Apr 21, 2017 03:35
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Shbobdb posted:It's OK, part of the pathology of Christianity is that it has to reframe everything within the context of itself.
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Apr 21, 2017 03:43
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Calibanibal posted:aww yeah, groundfloor of another round of copy-pasted bible quotes. Did yall know jesus cursed a tree? pretty hosed up did u know jesus never mentions internet revenge pornography in the bible at all EDIT: Shbobdb posted:It's OK, part of the pathology of Christianity is that it has to reframe everything within the context of itself. This people do through ideology, though, whether they'd like to admit it or not, to the extent they are really dedicated to that system. And you see it in this thread all the time. You can see it imperfectly when religion is evaluated on terms of how well it realizes certain leftist goals (which is fine — this is the core bias of this thread). Anyway, the Christian response to this is, more or less, "Yep." (My Marxist/Communist friends given over to a totalizing interpretive strategy would have a similar response, albeit representing a different lens.) Bolocko fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 04:00
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Alienwarehouse posted:Oh, I agree. The thing that pisses me off the most about conservative Christians is that they explicitly ignore the foundational principles of the New Testament. They consciously ignore everything Jesus had to say about poverty, greed, wealth, and envy. In a way, you could make the argument that Jesus was the first socialist. I might not go that far, but I do think there is more material in the New Testament in particular that would steer someone towards socialism than whatever kind of weird cult of violence and ethnic nationalism has gripped the right wing at the moment. The writings of contemporary Lutheran and Catholic opposition to the Nazis is instructive.
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Apr 21, 2017 04:05
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Did u know my snowflake exegesis is truly leftist and completely immune to historical or cultural forces.
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Apr 21, 2017 04:05
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Calibanibal posted:aww yeah, groundfloor of another round of copy-pasted bible quotes. Did yall know jesus cursed a tree? pretty hosed up It needs to be pointed out when people claim a different sect of Christians is "ignoring" the core message of the New Testament. Christian leaders have been using whatever cherry picked passages they want to support their narrative for centuries, it's not a new thing. poo poo the Council of Nicaea was a bunch of rich dudes deciding exactly which interpretation of Jesus's life works best to maintain control of the state. There is no correct or incorrect way of practicing Christianity. And that's not a good thing it's a problem endemic to all religions.
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Apr 21, 2017 04:08
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Agnosticnixie posted:Did u know my snowflake exegesis is truly leftist and completely immune to historical or cultural forces.
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Apr 21, 2017 04:08
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Agnosticnixie posted:Did u know my snowflake exegesis is truly leftist and completely immune to historical or cultural forces. We're all just waiting for the Marxist eschaton. Unpopularity and disinterest are no reason to descend into the muck and speak to the Christfags like human beings.
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Apr 21, 2017 04:17
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Bolocko posted:Anyway, the Christian response to this is, more or less, "Yep." (My Marxist/Communist friends given over to a totalizing interpretive strategy would have a similar response, albeit representing a different lens.) pretty much
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Apr 21, 2017 04:30
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Agag posted:We're all just waiting for the Marxist eschaton. Unpopularity and disinterest are no reason to descend into the muck and speak to the Christfags like human beings. But enough about serious Christian intellectuals proposing gay concentration camps complete with tattoos!
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Apr 21, 2017 05:00
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Shbobdb posted:But enough about serious Christian intellectuals proposing gay concentration camps complete with tattoos! Is that in one of Bonhoeffer's letters?
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Apr 21, 2017 05:01
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Agag posted:Is that in one of Bonhoeffer's letters? It's Buckley.
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Apr 21, 2017 05:07
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Bolocko posted:did u know jesus never mentions internet revenge pornography in the bible at all I love the cowardice of defending religion using postmodernism. It's like, nothing matters. There is no god, no underpinning of reality. Which means that God is Jesus and the world is 4000 years old. It's all just a narrative that deconstructs itself, right? Science is just as real as what I pull out my rear end.
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Apr 21, 2017 05:11
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Shbobdb posted:I mean . . . Is that a good way to use a screwdriver? Have you ever tried doing that? It breaks the screwdriver and hurts the ever loving poo poo out of your hands. A particularly hardy screwdriver you could probably repurpose. Creating tools from tools is what man does. Best case scenario you've damaged yourself and a nice tool to accomplish something at great effort you could have accomplished at little effort using a different tool. Most likely, you've accomplished nothing and broken your tool. No it's not a good way, yes it works for a lot of uses without breaking the screwdriver and yes this metaphor or simile kinda sucks. Just like using a screwdriver as a hammer. However, a Minidriver works as a hammer receptacle I'd imagine, and I have, often. The only damage is to her self-esteem because... well... My tool still functions, though its purpose is debatable.
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Apr 21, 2017 05:39
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Calibanibal posted:people say that the gospel is about love but why does this voluminous and ancient collection of texts talk about other facets of the human condition?? chew on that,christailures Posting one-liner troll because two-liners are hard, like Atheists and/or Christians sucking down some trollworthy substance. TRUMPCLINTON11
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Apr 21, 2017 05:45
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Agag posted:I might not go that far, but I do think there is more material in the New Testament in particular that would steer someone towards socialism than whatever kind of weird cult of violence and ethnic nationalism has gripped the right wing at the moment. The writings of contemporary Lutheran and Catholic opposition to the Nazis is instructive. All that material was referring to a specific gate in the wall named Eye of the Needle, Least of These and Socialism though.
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Apr 21, 2017 05:47
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RandomBlue posted:
FTFY
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Apr 21, 2017 05:48
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RasperFat posted:There is no correct or incorrect way of practicing Christianity. And that's not a good thing it's a problem endemic to all religions. Can we stop pretending this is an argument/debate in a vacuum given some of the things the current Administration is doing in the name of Christianity?
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Apr 21, 2017 15:33
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:pretty much Since logocentrism yeah, Shbobdb just figuring it almost 2 millennium later.
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Apr 21, 2017 18:31
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Can we stop pretending this is an argument/debate in a vacuum given some of the things the current Administration is doing in the name of Christianity? I know you're not a Christian apologist so I'm curious as to why you think that isn't true. This administration, and others before it, and different leaders all over the world have done lovely things in the name of Christianity for roughly 2000 years. Team Trump might be particularly bad, but they haven't even come close to the the horrible poo poo the Catholic Church accomplished. This is true even just looking at the last century and ignoring their marathon of horror during the Middle Ages. Are you saying that Catholics aren't "real Christians" practicing "real Christianity" when they are the largest group of Christians in the world?
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Apr 21, 2017 19:01
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I'm pretty sure you misinterpreted my post, I meant to steer the mealy-mouthed No True Scotsman arguments about Christianity back to reality with regard to people in this thread trying to claim Christians do not tend to vote and act hardline Conservative.
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Apr 21, 2017 20:18
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biracial bear for uncut posted:I'm pretty sure you misinterpreted my post, I meant to steer the mealy-mouthed No True Scotsman arguments about Christianity back to reality with regard to people in this thread trying to claim Christians do not tend to vote and act hardline Conservative. That makes a lot more sense thanks. Here's some data from our most recent election. Increasing church attendance was directly correlated with voting for Trump. Once a week 56% Once a month 49% A few times a year 47% Never 31% Religion is generally one of the best indicators for how a person votes, and has been for decades. Christians as a whole skew conservative pretty hard.
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Apr 21, 2017 21:18
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RasperFat posted:That makes a lot more sense thanks. They definitely skew conservative. Knowing this, and knowing that the nation is three-quarters Christian, what is the best strategy for the left?
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Apr 21, 2017 23:29
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Agag posted:They definitely skew conservative. Knowing this, and knowing that the nation is three-quarters Christian, what is the best strategy for the left? The strategy should be to move away from tying religion to the left. We don't need "true Christian" leaders for the left. "Jesus would be a socialist today" is a bad strategy that instead of liberalizing people's faith, tends to make people them double down and galvanize tradition. The left should be embracing secular phrasing and distancing themselves from from religion in general. We don't need Democratic politicians to say "God bless America" to end every statement or talk about how their faith drives them to public service. The left should be focusing on the tangible here and now with solid policies that will help working Americans. Just look at Bernie Sanders. He's a secular Jew and the most popular politician in the United States. How often does he talk about God? Hillary brought up her faith far more often and actually was a devout Christian and that didn't win her any votes. Dragging religion into politics hurts progressives while bolstering conservatives. With the youngest generations rapidly becoming less religious, the smart move for the future is backing away from religion, not embracing it.
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Apr 21, 2017 23:46
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Ignoring it doesn't generally elicit much support from the religious either. I'm also kind of skeptical of the weird end of history bent behind the decline in religiosity.
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Apr 21, 2017 23:47
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OwlFancier posted:Ignoring it doesn't generally elicit much support from the religious either. What does elicit support from religious people is getting them something like Medicare for All that is incredibly popular and easily understood. What elicits support is free college for everyone to give their kids more opportunity. Battling with voters over their faith is a deck stacked against progressives. As it has been since the dawn of civilization, reactionary conservatives have a stranglehold on religion. The left should be actively trying to move the battleground, not engaging in semantic apologetics.
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Apr 22, 2017 00:08
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I think advocating those things while very pointedly ignoring the religious position is what gets you people voting against healthcare reform because they think it'll be used to do infinite abortions.
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Apr 22, 2017 00:29
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RasperFat posted:The strategy should be to move away from tying religion to the left. We don't need "true Christian" leaders for the left. "Jesus would be a socialist today" is a bad strategy that instead of liberalizing people's faith, tends to make people them double down and galvanize tradition. Another thing that would help is if New Atheist shitheads would stop openly calling for the government to tax Churches out of existence. That kind of violates one of the most important aspects of the Constitution, as well.
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Apr 22, 2017 00:59
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OwlFancier posted:I think advocating those things while very pointedly ignoring the religious position is what gets you people voting against healthcare reform because they think it'll be used to do infinite abortions. I think that's nonsense and not backed up by how people vote. The people voting hardline against abortion were never going to be voting for progressives in any fashion. Being anti-choice is anti-woman no matter how you try to frame it, and most of that crowd doesn't even try to hide their raging my misogyny. Engaging their arguments about funding going to abortion, which doesn't happen by law already anyways, just muddies the water by spending time talking about abortion instead of the 99+% of medical services that are not abortion and isn't central to universal healthcare (though I would say abortions should be paid for by the government but we don't need to have that argument). Their mewling should absolutely be ignored with a single dismissive sentence "that's a lie no funding goes to that" and instead keep hammering on about the benefits of the policy. Bernie continuously speaking loudly about progressive policy is what people actually like about him. Maybe we should take that cue to ignore moralizing religious rhetoric and talk secular instead.
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Apr 22, 2017 01:03
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Alienwarehouse posted:Another thing that would help is if New Atheist shitheads would stop openly calling for the government to tax Churches out of existence. That kind of violates one of the most important aspects of the Constitution, as well. New Atheists are shitheads but taxing churches is something we probably should have started doing a long time ago. Of course this doesn't mean taxing every church but definitely tax some of them with some well thought out structure. Churches already operate in a business like fashion, with half of the budget going to (usually generous) salaries. Almost no church spends more than 20% of its budget on charity work, and that's being generous including "missions" that are about recruitment and not good works. In order to not disturb small towns from this, a simple exclusion for any church with a budget under $200,000 or something would make them not have to worry at all. Middle level churches can face nonprofit scrutiny where if it turns out the pastor takes 70% of the money for themselves they lose their exempt status. Megachurches should probably all be taxed as they are racketeering operations with a side bonus of merchandizing. Their leaders make literally millions every year, and there should be a cap on how much any nonprofit leader pays themselves when they are supposed to be a charity. If churches are running as businesses I don't see how it's unconstitutional for them to be taxed. Breaking tradition and requiring a change in tax laws, yes. But not unconstitutional. It would probably make the religious communities better because the charlatans could be weeded out much more easily.
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Apr 22, 2017 01:29
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RasperFat posted:The strategy should be to move away from tying religion to the left. We don't need "true Christian" leaders for the left. "Jesus would be a socialist today" is a bad strategy that instead of liberalizing people's faith, tends to make people them double down and galvanize tradition. I don't think mentioning religion is the lesson to take away from Hillary vs. Bernie. Hillary's general inauthenticity was the issue there, matched only by Trump's shallow pandering to the evangelical Republican base. It wasn't an election about religion, clearly. You need to look beyond the presidency. The Democrats are getting obliterated at the state level, and have little hope of regaining the House. You start looking at the local level, where both parties need to be competitive, and you're unavoidably looking at very devout parts of the map. Why wouldn't want you want local candidates to address people using their own frames of reference? Why would to assert that lecturing people about secularism is less likely to make them "double down" than couching a progressive agenda in Christian terms? As for demographic trends, how long do you want to get your rear end kicked while you wait for the needle to move, assuming it continues to move in the expected direction? And what gains can your opponents make and entrench while you do so?
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Apr 22, 2017 02:01
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Alienwarehouse posted:Another thing that would help is if New Atheist shitheads would stop openly calling for the government to tax Churches out of existence. That kind of violates one of the most important aspects of the Constitution, as well. Don't tax churches, but also don't let them form their own police forces. This is a "third way" position a lot of liberals and conservatives could probably agree on.
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Apr 22, 2017 02:02
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The dems already wrap themselves in god and flag. How's that been working out for them? Why would doubling down on an already saturated market pay dividends?
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Apr 22, 2017 02:28
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RasperFat posted:It would probably make the religious communities better because the charlatans could be weeded out much more easily. Honestly it would empower megachurches and possibly steer American Christianity in precisely the direction opposite what you're hoping for.
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Apr 22, 2017 02:38
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Shbobdb posted:The dems already wrap themselves in god and flag. How's that been working out for them? Why would doubling down on an already saturated market pay dividends? You compete for those voters, hopefully swing some. There is one "market" here - voters - and you have to win them over. Christian progressives in America brought you Abolition and the Civil Rights Movement, against right-wing Christians who opposed them. This can be done.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:13
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You can't beat religious zealots at their own game. 'Jesus was a socialist ' comes off as inauthentic, because the people with the moral authority to decide what jesus was or was not, are generally hostile to socialism, or even jesus' stated beliefs on income inequality. Stop thinking of religions as a catalog of beliefs, and start seeing then as power structures. Said power structures are never going to stop being hostile to the left. It doesn't matter if the left uses the right phrases or whatever - they are actively hostile to the goals of emancipation & universal brotherhood, because that is not in their self interest. No amount of flowery language is going to change that. No amount of rational dialogue is going to dislodge that. The people who get to decide what is Christian, and what is not, benefit, personally, from an oppressive society. They will rationalize that oppression as justified, and the opacity/convoluted bullshit of theology lets them do that without encountering cognitive dissonance. Religious dogma is not incidental, it is not arbitrary, it is chosen so as to benefit the dogmatists.
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Apr 22, 2017 05:45
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Alienwarehouse posted:Another thing that would help is if New Atheist shitheads would stop openly calling for the government to tax Churches out of existence. That kind of violates one of the most important aspects of the Constitution, as well. If you are not a recognized religion you have to demonstrate that you are sufficiently or correctly religious to qualify for tax exemption. It's unavoidably arbitrary and subjective and it puts the government in the position of sanctioning religions which is a breach of the 1st amendment. It's better to let them go through the same process as every other NGO - demonstrate you perform a public service and keep your books open.
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Apr 22, 2017 06:00
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rudatron posted:You can't beat religious zealots at their own game. 'Jesus was a socialist ' comes off as inauthentic, because the people with the moral authority to decide what jesus was or was not, are generally hostile to socialism, or even jesus' stated beliefs on income inequality. I'll let religions know tomorrow morning and all these problems will be over. High fives everyone!  
RandomBlue fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 22, 2017 06:47
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