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Coffeehitler posted:The problem with this plan is that we're acting purely defensively. On top of repelling/stopping the attacks we need to truly say "DO NOT gently caress WITH US". The real way to do that is by destroying/suppressing Radar sites and airfields. You're saying "Don't gently caress With Us, But I Might Want To gently caress Your Sister". We want to keep those radars alive, if possible so we can capture them and put them to good use later. We also don't have the aircraft for SEAD operations at this point.
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Apr 21, 2017 04:57
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Bacarruda posted:We want to keep those radars alive, if possible so we can capture them and put them to good use later. Like I mentioned in the Notes for BP, there's the chance to draw out the enemy AWACS. And we have 4 very good SEAD platforms in the Tornadoes, the radars are half the reason to engage the mechanized push in the East. Degrading the incredible intelligence gathering ability of the Government Forces will be a major boon for future operations. In Gulf 2, the Iraqi Air Defense Network (Radar/SAMS/ADA) was suppressed and/or destroyed despite the desire to take and hold the territory. It needed to be eliminated, and the same holds true here. Hoff takes the lithium mines and he can replace the radar sites; if we leave them alone and they're not taken, we get spotted as we take off and are on the back foot from the word go for every operation those sites are still operational. Radar sites are replaceable, we aren't.
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Apr 21, 2017 05:06
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From a gameplay perspective, how effective are cluster bombs on armored and unarmored targets vs guided bombs or standard iron bombs?
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Apr 21, 2017 05:15
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I'd advise against being too aggressive. It sounds like the Count's not in a position right now to advance and claim land, so we'd be drawing most of the Dictator's attention to ourselves. We want to consolidate and defend until we get a note from our employer to go offensive.
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Apr 21, 2017 05:18
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Bacarruda posted:We want to keep those radars alive, if possible so we can capture them and put them to good use later. Bacarruda posted:Operation First Impressions
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Apr 21, 2017 05:21
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Bacarruda posted:Operation First Impressions Any reason the Prowler gets left behind? We could probably sling that one HARM at one of the hostile radars as a gently caress you without much added risk. Unless my sense of scale is way off and the 70nm range is not enough, but they look closer than that.
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Apr 21, 2017 05:35
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Hell, even without the HARM, you never know when a jammer might come in handy.
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Apr 21, 2017 05:57
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Added Space posted:I'd advise against being too aggressive. It sounds like the Count's not in a position right now to advance and claim land, so we'd be drawing most of the Dictator's attention to ourselves. We want to consolidate and defend until we get a note from our employer to go offensive. If we're too conservative we're going to invite increased attacks from the Dictator as he sees an opportunity to strike a soft target. If we can show that we're a force to be reckoned with me may not only put the Dictator on the back foot but we may be able to convince Reddit Nation to join the fray directly, forcing Angola to split their forces and take the pressure off of Hoff's humanitarian efforts, which means one less thing we have to split our forces over. *Edit* I'm putting in a vote for First Impressions, Bacarruda and I might see things from a different perspective but I think his plan provides flexibility and efficiency, plus sends the message I think we need. Renaissance Spam fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 06:19
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Renaissance Spam posted:If we're too conservative we're going to invite increased attacks from the Dictator as he sees an opportunity to strike a soft target. If we can show that we're a force to be reckoned with me may not only put the Dictator on the back foot but we may be able to convince Reddit Nation to join the fray directly, forcing Angola to split their forces and take the pressure off of Hoff's humanitarian efforts, which means one less thing we have to split our forces over. Reddit is already forced to attack since they don't have control any mines. In any two-front war you commit most of your forces to one front to try to end it quickly, and we don't want that to be us. If we draw a bright line and defend it but don't encroach, we can encourage most of his forces to go north. That's when we go right ahead and stab him hard in the back.
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Apr 21, 2017 06:26
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Added Space posted:I'd advise against being too aggressive. It sounds like the Count's not in a position right now to advance and claim land, so we'd be drawing most of the Dictator's attention to ourselves. We want to consolidate and defend until we get a note from our employer to go offensive. If the Count didn't want a company that was too aggressive, he shouldn't have offered a contract to one that picked a fight during their last contract with no less than 2 different Nation-States, one of which is a 5th Generation fighter owner and a regional super power that has interests in his neck of the woods. If he didn't do his homework that's not our problem, and we shouldn't let it affect our stance. And that stance should be one of maximum aggressive posture. That will either drive the Dictator to focus on us in which case he loses ground to the Free State, or he turtles up in the South and focuses on the Free State allowing us and the Count to dictate the tempo of operations in the South. While the former could be bad for us, either outcome weakens the Dictator. And we have already pulled one very large rabbit out of a very tiny hat, who is to say that we can't make it two?
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Apr 21, 2017 06:29
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Gonna put up a plan later
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Apr 21, 2017 06:44
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I've made...well, not really a plan, so much as a resource distribution map. I can add in the "racetracks" later, but how does this look regarding airframe distribution? Edit: Oh crap! The last two Phantoms should be in the "center" on DCA/on-call CAS with AMRAAMs and 2000lb LGBs. Davin Valkri fucked around with this message at 06:58 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 06:55
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I don't think the Count can afford to have too much attention focused on him just yet. Half the people are still in danger of starving to death, not to mention we have an entire rocket artillery battery painting a bullseye on our own base of operations right now. Literally right at this moment. Taking care of those threats is the highest priority, with what's left going towards nibbling around the edges and blunting their mechanized superiority. I'd like to get more intelligence on what assets our opponents have and where they're located. I really want to know what SAM sites the dictator has, and which airbases his F-16s call home. It will also take a bit of time for the Count to consolidate and get ready for a bigger push. Once we do, though... I was really surprised to see how much damage the Taurus KEPD did to runways. I think our opponents will be, too  .Edit: Taking a look at the scenario. Even von Count seems to have a lot of SA-2s all over the place. The dictator's probably got even more. Sending the Prowler on the group that's striking the rocket arty might not be a bad idea. Edit#2: Also, unfortunately our Pantsirs can't shoot down the rocket artillery that's pointed at us. Sometimes bombs, rockets, missiles, etc. are an actual "missile" unit that can be targeted. Paveways and JDAMs count as such. (Which is what makes our Pantsirs and Shilkas so great.) Most unguided munitions can't, though. Psawhn fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 07:09
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I like First Impressions, but are we using the Sperwers for anything? Might be handy to have extra eyes in the sky.
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Apr 21, 2017 07:44
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Psawhn posted:nibbling around the edges and blunting their mechanized superiority. A nice, quiet, low-key thing to do would be to hit their fuel depots. That'd bring their T-55s to a screeching halt, and for a good long time too. Shorter term, we could put recon eyes on the LOC behind the mechanized advance and try and spot the fuel convoys or supply dumps. Taking out either would take a lot of pressure off the client's ground forces. Zack could have found it for us.
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Apr 21, 2017 07:56
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Coffeehitler posted:In Gulf 2, the Iraqi Air Defense Network (Radar/SAMS/ADA) was suppressed and/or destroyed despite the desire to take and hold the territory. It needed to be eliminated, and the same holds true here. Hoff takes the lithium mines and he can replace the radar sites; if we leave them alone and they're not taken, we get spotted as we take off and are on the back foot from the word go for every operation those sites are still operational. Radar sites are replaceable, we aren't. Trying to go after the radars, airfields, MLRS, and tanks, while escorting the convoys and keeping the Argus and Big Pig safe is asking our limited forces to do an awful lot. I'm not automatically opposed to blowing up trucks, radars, or other targets of opportunity if our initial strikes have bombs leftover. But in trying to do everything, we risk doing nothing. The Western strike also stretches our CAP and jamming assets pretty thin. Plan Big Papa has to cover SEAD missions on two radars 50-100nm apart, a long-range strike on an airfield (and we have no intel on its defenses), a ground strike mission on the MLRS by a parade of fast- and slow-movers. That gives Red Air a lot of opportunities to pick off aircraft and it gives their air defenses a lot of vulnerable targets. It also dilutes the effectiveness of our jamming since we're exposing ourselves to so many different air defenses and radars. By contrast, Operation First Impressions focuses on a coordinated ground strike on the MLRS. One strike, one thing for the CAP and the Prowler to cover. If we kill the MLRS and want to hit targets like the radars or other troops on the border, great! We're still talking about one strike pacakage that has to be covered. Coffeehitler posted:Like I mentioned in the Notes for BP, there's the chance to draw out the enemy AWACS. And we have 4 very good SEAD platforms in the Tornadoes, the radars are half the reason to engage the mechanized push in the East. Degrading the incredible intelligence gathering ability of the Government Forces will be a major boon for future operations. I agree the Wedgetail is a threat, but we can try Operation Bolo another day. Drawing out the AWACs has to be a dedicated effort between the Argus, the Gripens, the Phantoms, the Prowler and the KC-135 or VC-10. We'd need to locate the Wedgetail, try and run interference with the Growler, rush some the Gripens in at supersonic speed to get off Meteor shots while the other Gripens tangled with the Korean's CAP. The have the tankers ready to top up the fuel-starved Gripens as they egress -- with the Phantoms watching their backs. Suffice to say, we don't have the birds to run three distinct operations in this mission and a counter-Wedgetail op. power crystals posted:Any reason the Prowler gets left behind? We could probably sling that one HARM at one of the hostile radars as a gently caress you without much added risk. Unless my sense of scale is way off and the 70nm range is not enough, but they look closer than that. I'll add the Prowler and give it one HARM and four jamming pods. It can help out Bullfrog Flight and Slugger Flight in the west. Psawhn posted:I think we do have the aircraft for SEAD operations... just maybe not quite enough aircraft for SEAD operations while running three other missions at the same time. I think once we've removed the direct threats to our own airfield and got a handle on how this AO starts playing out then we can start tasking Tornados to snipe at radars and SAM sites. Oh, this I completely agree with! I'm not opposed to SEAD -- I'm very much in favor of it (it's why I wanted to buy six Tornadoes). But it's beyond the current scope of this current mission, which is air superiority, CAS, escort, and strike. We can't spread ourselves too thin. Psawhn posted:Edit: Taking a look at the scenario. Even von Count seems to have a lot of SA-2s all over the place. *sighs and looks at the Hawks we just bought* I thought that might happen.
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Apr 21, 2017 08:07
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Quinntan posted:It was my understanding that where they're needed we would be okay to use them. A dispersed battery of rocket artillery is a good use case for cluster munitions. There is never a good case for cluster munitions.
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Apr 21, 2017 08:11
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Quinntan posted:It wouldn't be so bad if you could tank them up in the air but lol Soviets. The Frogfoots can't do aerial refueling? 
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Apr 21, 2017 09:10
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gradenko_2000 posted:The Frogfoots can't do aerial refueling? No. None of the Frogfoot variants can, I don't think.
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Apr 21, 2017 09:20
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I assume the MLRS systems will have to many guards for us to send whats left of our ground forces after them to capture some? I'm assuming they all signed the Suicide Mission waver....
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Apr 21, 2017 09:42
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A lot of Soviet aircraft weren't designed to in flight refuel. Offhand, the only Russian aircraft capable of it are Tu-95s and derivatives, Su-24s and maybe some Su-30s and Su-34s?
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Apr 21, 2017 09:48
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Every operational plan should have the Prowler used in some sort of capacity. EWAR is something we have that no other side has to our knowledge. To leave it on the ground is like not launching our AEW plane.
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Apr 21, 2017 09:53
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Bacarruda posted:
Voting: Operation First Impressions Really excellent plan. Accomplishes everything that we need to do, doesn't overextend and has some excess capacity to deal with any unexpected events. Some minor additions that we could make: We might want to switch one of our Ironbreaker flight Tornados to SEAD (2xHARMs) so that both of our strike packages have SEAD cover. We already have a lot of bombs heading to take out those Tanks to the East. It'll still leave us with 14x2000lb bombs to take out the Tank Column. Yooper has mentioned that there are hidden non radiating SAMs littered all around the country so I'd prefer each strike package having to have a SEAD escort. And I really don't want a hidden SAM to kill our airdropping C-130. Send a Shilka Battery along with the Aid Convoy, it should be able to shred any light ground forces so it isn't completely defenseless. Fly a Sperwer along the convoy route ahead of the Convoy, should be able to pick up any hostiles lying in ambush way in advance. We can also send up 2xSK-60s at a time to provide constant air cover for the convoy. Send a Sperwer up north to do some Recon/BDA of the MRLS sites and to ID any stragglers/targets of opportunity.
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Apr 21, 2017 10:36
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Mr Crustacean posted:Voting: Operation First Impressions I like these suggestions. Can we check in with the Count's own air force? Do we know what their operational plans are?
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Apr 21, 2017 10:43
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How vulnerable are the SK60s to MANPADS? Basically can we use them for CAS after they've do any work to protect the convoy.
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Apr 21, 2017 10:48
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Does the Count even have an air force? I was under the impression that we are it for him.Cthulhu Dreams posted:How vulnerable are the SK60s to MANPADS? Basically can we use them for CAS after they've do any work to protect the convoy. Very. They're pretty slow and they don't have countermeasures.
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Apr 21, 2017 10:52
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:How vulnerable are the SK60s to MANPADS? Basically can we use them for CAS after they've do any work to protect the convoy. The best thing to do might be to have them fly CAS for the convoys. To borrow a tactic from the RAF, we put the SK 60s a in "cab rank" orbiting above the convoy. Give each convoy a Sperwer or the Reaper to scan its route. If one of the drones ID a target, we split off 1-2 of the SK 60s to hit the target. If they kill it, they rejoin the cab rank. If they run out of ammo, they RTB and the next SK 60s in the cab rank peel off to engage. If we give them the 30mm gunpods, they'll have the range to do escort the convoys for most of their trip. Yooper can we stick 30mm gunpods on our SK 60s?
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Apr 21, 2017 11:18
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Bacarruda posted:The best thing to do might be to have them fly CAS for the convoys. To borrow a tactic from the RAF, we put the SK 60s a in "cab rank" orbiting above the convoy. Yeah I was thinking if he cannot use them here we may as well sell them off because they basically have no value. Using them to defend the convoy makes sense.
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Apr 21, 2017 11:24
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loving love Fiona Apple posted:Hey Yooper, would it be possible to buy some equipment for the count's ground forces and have them pay us back after the war? With interest of course. Maybe down the road. But we just showed up! That and we don't have a man on the ground who "Knows things and people". Yvonmukluk posted:I like these suggestions.  It needs some maintenance. Actually lots of maintenance. The best way we can help them get aircraft is to get their ground forces to an airbase and hope they capture some air frames on the ground. Bacarruda posted:Yooper can we stick 30mm gunpods on our SK 60s? Yup! I'm not sure how effective they'll be at engaging air targets though.   Scenario length is going to be about as long as it takes for those MLRS's to get into range of the airfield. So think 8-12 hours. Which means our quick turnaround planes will do OK. Our F-4E's though only get one mission in that time.
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Apr 21, 2017 12:54
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Yooper posted:Maybe down the road. But we just showed up! That and we don't have a man on the ground who "Knows things and people". The Count has intel people, right? Could we slip them briefcase full of a couple million bucks and have him do some basic intel work for us? At minimum, I'd like to get that Observer Corps set up and get some people with satellite phones to stakeout the airfields in the region. Obviously, it won't be close to what Zack can give us, but hey... Yooper posted:It needs some maintenance. Actually lots of maintenance. The best way we can help them get aircraft is to get their ground forces to an airbase and hope they capture some air frames on the ground. Could we lease some of our aircraft to him through a rent-to-own scheme? We aren't going to be getting much mileage out of the SK 60s, but I think he might. Yooper posted:Yup! I'm not sure how effective they'll be at engaging air targets though. . So Yooper, to clarify, the threat to the convoy isn't ground forces, but enemy aircraft?
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Apr 21, 2017 13:04
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Bacarruda posted:The Count has intel people, right? 1. We'll have limited ground eyes in the Dictators territory. 2. Maybe? H'es not in a position to worry about it yet. 3. Correct. The threat will be from the air. The convoys are moving away from the main front
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Apr 21, 2017 13:07
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Yooper posted:1. We'll have limited ground eyes in the Dictators territory. If the convoy faces the risk of air attack then we should definitely send an SA-22 battery to escort it. This is what they're designed to do, to escort advancing ground units and protect them from air attack. It's an exceptionally capable SHORAD that can absolutely take care of itself and protect the convoy at the same time. We've also gotta be careful with our Reaper+ C130, they're rather vulnerable and very valuable to us, if hostile air manages to burn through and snipe them then we'd be down our core ISR and airlift asset. If our AWACS detects any hostile planes they should be running away in the opposite direction ASAP.
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Apr 21, 2017 13:22
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Definitely don't bother sending any of the drones over the convoy then, they'll do nothing except die. The Reaper would be great for spotting the tanks but it'll probably get shot down in transit. Maybe send it over the rocket batteries to make sure we got everything. I have no idea what to do with the Spwehers or however you spell that or the SK60s. The UAVs were probably not our best purchase and the SK60s need a more well defined mission to be useful. Unless we want to try suiciding them into some SA-2 batteries but that doesn't seem worth it. The SA-2s are in the same class as our HAWK but slightly longer ranged. If they aren't radiating they're gonna be really annoying to dig out.
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Apr 21, 2017 13:24
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Mr Crustacean posted:If the convoy faces the risk of air attack then we should definitely send an SA-22 battery to escort it. This is what they're designed to do, to escort advancing ground units and protect them from air attack. It's an exceptionally capable SHORAD that can absolutely take care of itself and protect the convoy at the same time. Convoy(s). Plural. There's lots of 4 truck groups moving supplies around a fairly large area.
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Apr 21, 2017 13:24
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Yooper posted:It needs some maintenance. Actually lots of maintenance. The best way we can help them get aircraft is to get their ground forces to an airbase and hope they capture some air frames on the ground. Can anyone else say 'Entebbe'? We could use our Shilkas to go out on recon runs to see if we can maybe ID supply depots/hidden SAMs at the front. If we time it so they're spotting while the CAS strikes are going on, the enemy will be too distracted to try and shoot them down. If we're not using the SK-60s to escort the convoys, it might be an idea to keep them in reserve. If we ID targets of opportunity that don't have AAA protection that we could send them out to say hi. Or have our other birds take out the AAA on say the tanks or MRLSs and let them the take out the actual targets (assuming they pack the appropiate munitions). We need to factor in that the F-4s apparently only get one run out for this op when it comes to our planning.
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Apr 21, 2017 13:41
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Dong Quixote posted:Every operational plan should have the Prowler used in some sort of capacity. EWAR is something we have that no other side has to our knowledge. To leave it on the ground is like not launching our AEW plane. The Prowler flying in formation with a dedicated SEAD or Strike package is the ideal way to use it. Those jammers should be good for stuff we are likely to see.
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Apr 21, 2017 14:00
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Bacarruda posted:Trying to go after the radars, airfields, MLRS, and tanks, while escorting the convoys and keeping the Argus and Big Pig safe is asking our limited forces to do an awful lot. SP1 (Western/MLRS) is on our door step. The radars for that area need to be turned off so that we can operate safely out of our home base. And if that location is stretching ourselves thin, we should shutter the LP because anything else will to. Plan Big Papa hits 3 radar sites near a target or along a flight path to a target. There is one nearby enemy airfield. All of these targets appear to be within assigned weapon ranges (70nm and 180nm, respectively), meaning that the airfield strike should not put undo strain on mission success chances. I don't have a copy of CMANO, so if I'm wrong on the ranges involved I can accept that. But eyeballing the various maps available, we should be able to seriously hamper the ability of the Dictator to operate in the greater Lubango AO. quote:By contrast, Operation First Impressions focuses on a coordinated ground strike on the MLRS. One strike, one thing for the CAP and the Prowler to cover. If we kill the MLRS and want to hit targets like the radars or other troops on the border, great! We're still talking about one strike pacakage that has to be covered. CAP is included in both Big Papa strike packages, so I'm not sure which one isn't. The only thing that has thin coverage is the convoy, which yes I don't have a good answer for. Maybe 3x Gripens for each strike package and the last 2 race tracking over them? And I purposely don't commit the Prowler for this mission, I feel that we should keep that as an ace in the hole for a deeper penetration strike. quote:I agree the Wedgetail is a threat, but we can try Operation Bolo another day. Drawing out the AWACs has to be a dedicated effort between the Argus, the Gripens, the Phantoms, the Prowler and the KC-135 or VC-10. I'm not expecting the Wedgetail to be immediately committed (if it is great, if close enough, we might be able to get it), but if the Count can't neutralize the radars with his ground forces then we're leaving a huge intel advantage to the enemy. What the anti-radar portion of Big Papa does is counter some of that advantage and possibly, maybe, could someday see a chance for a setup for a later Wedgetail op (a low, yet non-zero chance). I don't expect it to be launched if the Lubango facing radars suddenly go dark, and I only ever mention that its a chance in this mission. I only mention the bare chance of it because its the boogie man for the thread for this contract. I would argue that we don't quite have the birds to do everything needed for this mission effectively, but we are being hamstrung by mis-guided morality. I will agree that First Impressions is a good plan, but I don't think it goes far enough in establishing a foothold in the skies above Southern Angola.
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Apr 21, 2017 14:01
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Yooper posted:Convoy(s). Plural. There's lots of 4 truck groups moving supplies around a fairly large area. Well that's convenient since we have 4 mobile SHORAD batteries we can escort them with  Are we able to split the SA-22 and Shilka batteries? They have 2 units in each and it would be great if we could have (1xSA-22 unit + 1xShilka unit) to escort each convoy.If not, then we send the SA-22 batteries along with the convoys that are closest to the exclusion line, and shilkas with the convoys at the rear. The SA-22s should comfortably protect their convoys and we've only got to worry about protecting the 2 Shilka convoys from air attack. Save the SK-60s (rockets) for reserve against the MLRS, those MLRS need to die and if our F-4 strike doesn't take them out we'll be glad to have some extra bites at the apple with our SK-60s. Keep our spare 2 Gripens in the air as our reserve CAP. They take too long to react on the ground and are completely out of position to cover our convoys for air attack. If the enemy tries to nail our East strike package then we'll have to peel off some Gripens to take care of them. If they do that at the same time as burning for our convoys/Northern strike package we'll have to choose between them. So we need all the Gripens up to cover. That means we gotta launch our VC10 tanker to keep them fueled. Keep the Sperwer flying ahead of our convoys, it costs nothing and will pick up any ground forces along the route. If we send the Reaper/C130 we have to be very, very conservative with them and have them hang back from the exclusion line/ airdrop to the location furthest South. First Impressions + SHORAD Convoy Escort + 2 Gripens airborne reserve CAP, SK60s ready to strike northern MLRS as necesarry Mr Crustacean fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 14:01
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Mr Crustacean posted:Are we able to split the SA-22 and Shilka batteries? I'll need to dig into this more and see if we can split them. I might have to wiggle it a bit and set 1/2 to destroyed for example.
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Apr 21, 2017 14:15
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Coffeehitler posted:The problem with this plan is that we're acting purely defensively. On top of repelling/stopping the attacks we need to truly say "DO NOT gently caress WITH US". The real way to do that is by destroying/suppressing Radar sites and airfields. You're saying "Don't gently caress With Us, But I Might Want To gently caress Your Sister". Remember how Yooper introduced the sort of "heat meter" thing for Angola? While it may seem like a good idea to make preemptive strikes or go above and beyond in destroying enemy targets, that also risks drawing more attention to Hired Goons and possibly resulting in greater enemy forces in later missions or even attacks on our airbase.
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Apr 21, 2017 14:15
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