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zonohedron posted:Okay, here goes, I am going to actually hit my head on the keyboard and see what happens: Going with Super Mario Land instead of a more mainstream Mario for this analogy is by far the most confusing thing I've encountered in this thread.
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Apr 21, 2017 21:32
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:First of all, forums poster Hegel Smoke a J, I appreciate the end punctuation. don't you have a husband to cuckold?
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Apr 21, 2017 21:32
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The berating doesn't bother me because of the reasons already explained.
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I would suggest making use of a little-known tradition of the Christian faith known as "forgiveness" with your (ex) pastor and getting on with your life.
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Apr 21, 2017 21:34
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:forums poster Hegel Smoke a J quote:I am just (probably fruitlessly) trying to gather information to try make this guy understand what it's like to walk a mile in my shoes
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Apr 21, 2017 21:35
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zonohedron posted:Okay, here goes, I am going to actually hit my head on the keyboard and see what happens: That's fair. So far what the pastor performing the counseling is telling us is that not only did he find it unlikely that they would reconcile, but also unwise given what she was subjected to after the revelation. Basically, if my own pastor wants to play the derivative "who sinned first" game--which I don't really want to do, but it's his rules I have to play by--then it's the ex-husband with 1 Corinth. 7:5. docbeard posted:I would suggest making use of a little-known tradition of the Christian faith known as "forgiveness" with your (ex) pastor and getting on with your life. I'm betting the last thing I'll say to him is "guess we'll have to mutually kick the dust from our sandals" Jedi Knight Luigi fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 21:35
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he didn't force you to gently caress her, though. how does his actions in marriage reflect on your actions?
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Apr 21, 2017 21:39
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making it clear; fiancée d(￣ ￣) you (● ˃̶͈̀ロ˂̶͈́)੭ꠥ⁾⁾
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Apr 21, 2017 21:40
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JKL I hope that you find happiness and communion with God in whatever way has value to you. But I also hope that you develop out of this difficulty a broader empathy for others in a similar boat to you.
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Apr 21, 2017 21:47
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P-Mack posted:Going with Super Mario Land instead of a more mainstream Mario for this analogy is by far the most confusing thing I've encountered in this thread. I tried to use Peach as the pseudonym but that necessitated Bowser rescuing her from Mario and it just wasn't working out, and anyway in the later games Daisy and Luigi (and/or Waluigi) are paired up, and... look, I wrote it after I literally hit a keyboard with my head a few times, okay  Jedi Knight Luigi posted:That's fair. So far what the pastor performing the counseling is telling us is that not only did he find it unlikely that they would reconcile, but also unwise given what she was subjected to after the revelation. Basically, if my own pastor wants to play the derivative "who sinned first" game--which I don't really want to do, but it's his rules I have to play by--then it's the ex-husband with 1 Corinth. 7:5. I'm going to just copy and paste from earlier: bnhg v 76yu878u IT'S NOT A WHO SINNED FIRST GAME. You do not get a "one free sin" card when you're sinned against! I mean ESPECIALLY if the issue is just that he's apparently cold and unfeeling and refusing to satisfy the marital debt, but even if he was actually doing really super bad things that still doesn't mean your fiancee had a "retaliate free of consequences" card to turn in, and even if she did, you weren't married to him and so he wasn't sinning against YOU at any point in here. You've had the half (probably nine-tenths) of the thread who disagrees with you about who can marry whom inquire, more or less politely, how the shoe feels when it is suddenly upon the other foot; now for the other half (one-tenth)'s perspective: maybe your pastor is trying to point out that a relationship begun in deceit, fueled by one person's unhappiness with vows she took and another person's willingness to collaborate in sinning against an oblivious third party, might not be the kind of relationship that makes for the best marriage, and maybe your pastor doesn't want to officiate at a wedding that would implicitly approve of it.
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Apr 21, 2017 21:50
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zonohedron posted:I tried to use Peach as the pseudonym but that necessitated Bowser rescuing her from Mario and it just wasn't working out, and anyway in the later games Daisy and Luigi (and/or Waluigi) are paired up, and... look, I wrote it after I literally hit a keyboard with my head a few times, okay I know it's not a "who sinned first" game--that's what repentance is supposed to cover, if rendered honestly. But this guy is legalistic to the bone, and I'm trying to point out the hypocrisy in adopting a literal stance like that for Luke 16:18 and not for Matthew 18:8 is the point I'm trying to make. My own dad told me on the phone that one must let scripture interpret scripture, and given the repentance proffered (I even spoke with the ex-husband after all was said and done), I'm failing to see what the issue is. HopperUK posted:JKL I hope that you find happiness and communion with God in whatever way has value to you. But I also hope that you develop out of this difficulty a broader empathy for others in a similar boat to you. Thanks for the words of support. I'd much rather put myself through this ordeal than live with my girlfriend before marriage.
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Apr 21, 2017 21:57
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but loving her while she's married is fair game jkl you're why people call christians hypocrites.
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Apr 21, 2017 21:59
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lol "father, we were compelled to cheat! it was to avoid premarital sex!"
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Apr 21, 2017 22:03
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Senju Kannon posted:but loving her while she's married is fair game The forbidden cuck sex is way hotter than when you're living together and arguing about whose turn it is to do the dishes.
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Apr 21, 2017 22:04
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You guys should probably be more charitable. My confirmation saint was St Moses the Black for a reason. Everyone can be reconciled. Everyone. Did ya know there's only one sin that cannot be forgiven according to Catholic tradition?  puhuhu it's despair; the idea that God can somehow run out of grace.
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Apr 21, 2017 22:05
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Senju Kannon posted:but loving her while she's married is fair game "I can't believe you get to have sex again while I can't." - one of our mutual friends said this to my fiancee when she told her the news. Thankfully everyone else has been happy for us, but it's funny how similarly you're coming off. e: I should add that it was delivered unironically, which is how I'm interpreting these posts.
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Apr 21, 2017 22:06
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The Phlegmatist posted:You guys should probably be more charitable. My confirmation saint was St Moses the Black for a reason. Everyone can be reconciled. Everyone. I think the reason many people are upset is that JKL is very conservative and has high moral standards he has held people in this thread to, but instead of sounding contrite for his adultery he sounds cavalier.
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Apr 21, 2017 22:09
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:"I can't believe you get to have sex again while I can't." - one of our mutual friends said this to my fiancee when she told her the news. Thankfully everyone else has been happy for us, but it's funny how similarly you're coming off. guess what i don't like cheaters and I like hypocrites who think Jesus is okay with it but not gay men ever having sex and god forbid transitioning even less i had a professor who implied that the reason she left her conservative christian upbringing and training was because she cheated on her husband and was ostracized from her community, which caused her to reevaluate what she believed about all sexual sins and wound up being a lgbt positive biblical scholar. Guess what I still think it's messed up she cheated on her husband but at least she had some self awareness that you're clearly lacking
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Apr 21, 2017 22:10
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i think people can have safe sane and consensual group sex and whether it's moral or not is irrelevant i still also think cheating is hosed these are not mutually exclusive ideologies
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Apr 21, 2017 22:12
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Like the one thing basically everyone still agrees on in 2017 with wrt sexual morality and marriage is that cheating is bad. But her husband was a jerk! A new and unprecedented scenario in the history of infidelity!
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Apr 21, 2017 22:13
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like don't get me wrong, abuse? do whatever you need to do for yourself. does not absolve the guy who decided he wanted to be the other man
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Apr 21, 2017 22:17
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Thirteen Orphans posted:I think the reason many people are upset is that JKL is very conservative and has high moral standards he has held people in this thread to, but instead of sounding contrite for his adultery he sounds cavalier. It's been a long time since I posted regularly in here. I would say my view of Christianity--I could say Lutheranism specifically--has shifted away from the belief that might say "my denomination is the most correct" to "this is a German/Northern European way to believe in God." More so "those who seek righteousness find God, even if they practice a non-Christian religion" less so "The sons of Ham and Japheth have a lot of blood on their hands for not keeping their descendants in the covenant" (which the Wisconsin Synod would likely say without irony--it's crazy thinking about it in retrospect).
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Apr 21, 2017 22:19
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sorry for not subscribing to the JKL newsletter I guess
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Apr 21, 2017 22:23
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:It's been a long time since I posted regularly in here. I would say my view of Christianity--I could say Lutheranism specifically--has shifted away from the belief that might say "my denomination is the most correct" to "this is a German/Northern European way to believe in God." More so "those who seek righteousness find God, even if they practice a non-Christian religion" less so "The sons of Ham and Japheth have a lot of blood on their hands for not keeping their descendants in the covenant" (which the Wisconsin Synod would likely say without irony--it's crazy thinking about it in retrospect). I'm not trying to be aggressive or hostile, but it still sounds like you think the adultery was OK because she wasn't getting sex, so she deserved the sex you gave her, and I don't know what the above has to do with that.
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Apr 21, 2017 22:28
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This thread is real hard to follow now. I'm just gonna say that while I've sinned, I have never cheated on anyone nor encouraged anyone to do so because it is a lovely thing to do. There's no rules-lawyering that you can do in good faith to make it look right. If you feel guilty, seek forgiveness and confession, but be prepared to atone even if you don't feel like it because thats the point of the thing.
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Apr 21, 2017 22:31
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Thirteen Orphans posted:I'm not trying to be aggressive or hostile, but it still sounds like you think the adultery was OK because she wasn't getting sex, so she deserved the sex you gave her, and I don't know what the above has to do with that. No the adultery was not okay, for any party. I didn't talk to her for like 6 months after they finally went to counseling. And we didn't officially start dating until over a year after that. The issue my own pastor has is that he does not consider the withholding of conjugal duties a sin that would free my fiancee to marry again, whereas I (and the pastors in our camp) do.
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Apr 21, 2017 22:32
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also I don't like the idea that you're entitled to sex because you're married sounds kinda rape-y
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Apr 21, 2017 22:33
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More or less the same thing happened to my uncle when he remarried after his wife died. (There was much more involved than that, though no cheating that I'm aware of, and I have no idea if I'd change my mind about whether they were justified if I knew it all.) So, you know, I'm not wholly without sympathy. I can't help remembering that Jesus's harshest words were for hypocrites (and fig trees for some reason), though I'm not exactly Captain AllowedToThrowStones over here either. In any case, what I was getting at before is that the more you worry about getting the last word or owning your pastor with citations from the Gospels and your favorite incomprehensible German theologian, the the less happy your life will be. You're not likely to convince him he's wrong and you'll just make yourself miserable trying. That's experience rather than religion, but I've never known it not to be true.
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Apr 21, 2017 22:40
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All of you suck
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Apr 21, 2017 22:45
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docbeard posted:More or less the same thing happened to my uncle when he remarried after his wife died. (There was much more involved than that, though no cheating that I'm aware of, and I have no idea if I'd change my mind about whether they were justified if I knew it all.) So, you know, I'm not wholly without sympathy. I appreciate the thought into the motivation here--I may not have reflected on it fully myself, but there are other delicate elements in the balance, not the least of which is my status as a PK, and my dad's status as recently colloquized minister in this synod. I just don't want to some other party (namely, my own pastor) to bring that "1 Timothy 3:5" hammer down on him needlessly, and if I display some effort on my way out, my own pastor will hopefully have less ground to stand on. Although he's told me he wouldn't do this, I don't really trust him.
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Apr 21, 2017 22:48
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I'm not a Christian but I can't say I would be very inclined to be charitable with you because you don't seem to believe that adultery is wrong. Like that's a really bad thing, and as far as I know, most churches would probably also think it's a really bad thing. I don't really see why you expect not to suffer some consequences for your actions. Your pastor may be getting a similar impression from your apparent focus on wanting to avoid consequences. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 22:54
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Smoking Crow posted:All of you suck i rule actually _(┐「ε  __(:3 」∠)_ _(┐「ε _
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Apr 21, 2017 22:56
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I'm struggling to understand why people think I'm defending adultery. What I'm trying to do is gather together a narrative that explains to someone as hardline as my own pastor why someone who sought forgiveness for the act, had an amicable divorce, and now over a year and half later wants to re-marry, should be able to do so. Should she really sit in marriage "jail" even after repentance? It's incongruent with the message of the Gospel, and especially incongruent with Protestant theology that accentuates the role forgiveness plays with the penitent. She's already wearing the "white robe of righteousness" that all Protestants receive at baptism, so to speak. Therein lies the point of contention. It has nothing to do with the adultery.
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Apr 21, 2017 23:01
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"He wasn't putting out so it's not actually that wrong" isn't seeking forgiveness as much as trying to explain that it wasn't really that wrong to begin with. It's probably not convincing your pastor that the two of you take marriage seriously in the way he believes is important.
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Apr 21, 2017 23:05
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Senju Kannon posted:_(┐「ε:)_ Had to see what these looked like without smilies on. Definitely gonna use them later.
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Apr 21, 2017 23:07
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But really, man, that fig tree had it coming. Jesus just wanted a snack and you gotta be like that?
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Apr 21, 2017 23:07
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Heinous Anus posted:Had to see what these looked like without smilies on. Definitely gonna use them later.
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Apr 22, 2017 00:16
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JKL is it possible that the antagonistic priest is in the right? Can you accept that your sin of infidelity disqualifies you from marriage?
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Apr 22, 2017 00:22
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WerrWaaa posted:JKL is it possible that the antagonistic priest is in the right? Can you accept that your sin of infidelity disqualifies you from marriage? If that disqualified anyone from marriage, there would be a rather large number of unmarried people right now. I'm seeing two problems. JKL does not appear to have accepted his own role in the destruction of his fiancee's marriage, and he's discovering that rigid legalism is not very cool when you're on the receiving end of it.
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Apr 22, 2017 00:42
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WerrWaaa posted:JKL is it possible that the antagonistic priest is in the right? Can you accept that your sin of infidelity disqualifies you from marriage? I don't think the message of the Gospel would disbar my fiancee from marrying someone else (me in this case). Remember that I've never been married before--the way the pastor is interpreting the passage is with regard to my fiancee specifically. According to him, she can never marry anyone else unless she were to reconcile with her ex-husband, and then if he were to subsequently commit adultery or some other LCMS-sanctioned "grounds for divorce", she would be "free" to marry another. My fiancee has contended for a while that this pastor is particularly sexist; her ex-husband literally said to her, many months before our tryst ever happened, that he wasn't sexually attracted to her anymore, while still viewing porn in the meantime. And then as mentioned he refused counseling to address the problem. But of course once it comes out that my fiancee did an equally reprehensible thing (from a Protestant point of view, viewing pornography and committing adultery are equal sins), only then should this passage apply! So that's the disconnect I'm trying to reconcile here. Not only would it be unlikely that they would ever reconcile, but as our marriage counseling pastor from the very same synod insists, it would be unwise. I suppose the next time I see him I could pose the question, "would [ex-husband] also be disbarred from marriage to another" and see if he's consistent. If he isn't, I'll be able to have a sigh of relief that he won't sabotage our status as members in the synod. If he is consistent, well, the ex-husband isn't a member of his church, so it's an easy answer to give. I'm the one who's still in the "cult" so to speak, not the ex-husband. From there I would just have to determine whether it's worth the strife it might bring on the rest of my extended family, or if jumping ship for the ELCA is an option. Deteriorata posted:If that disqualified anyone from marriage, there would be a rather large number of unmarried people right now. I sought forgiveness for that and received it. I'm not sure what my role has to do with my fiancee being "barred" from re-marriage. The interpretation the pastor is positing is that she wouldn't be able to marry anyone, even besides me.
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Apr 22, 2017 00:50
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:I sought forgiveness for that and received it. I'm not sure what my role has to do with my fiancee being "barred" from re-marriage. The interpretation the pastor is positing is that she wouldn't be able to marry anyone, even besides me. And my point is that using Scripture as a weapon of judgment is a lot more fun when you're the one judging others, rather than the one being judged. Welcome to the world of homosexuals and other societal misfits who have had to endure that sort of arbitrary scorn their entire lives.
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Apr 22, 2017 01:13
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