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Snowman_McK posted:I was suggesting that the poor performance of the film at the box office is more likely due to a really lovely marketing campaign than the accusations of white washing. Oh, right. Gotcha.
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Apr 21, 2017 04:05
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Alan_Shore posted:Are you white?
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Apr 21, 2017 04:55
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Ersatz posted:If she (?) was, would that have any bearing on the truth or falsity of her (?) assessment re: the alleged whitewashing? Yeah, I think so.
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Apr 21, 2017 05:08
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Alan_Shore posted:Yeah, I think so.
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Apr 21, 2017 05:13
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Bugblatter posted:Oh, right. Gotcha. The whitewashing didn't help, and was a pretty good example of how not to handle complaints. There were a fair few various crewmembers saying they didn't see the big deal, and they were overwhelmingly white men. It was a refusal to engage with the idea that there was a problem, and this didn't change for months, right up to release, when a statement like 'look, we wanted to tell the story in such a way that spoke to as many people as possible, and Scarlett is able to speak to a lot of people, as she's demonstrated, being super-talented, yadda, yadda" Or, you could talk about how the concept of identity is fluid in the GITS universe, and how changes like that are part of the film's themes and narrative.
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Apr 21, 2017 05:22
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Snowman_McK posted:The whitewashing didn't help, and was a pretty good example of how not to handle complaints. There were a fair few various crewmembers saying they didn't see the big deal, and they were overwhelmingly white men. It was a refusal to engage with the idea that there was a problem, and this didn't change for months, right up to release, when a statement like 'look, we wanted to tell the story in such a way that spoke to as many people as possible, and Scarlett is able to speak to a lot of people, as she's demonstrated, being super-talented, yadda, yadda" Or, you could talk about how the concept of identity is fluid in the GITS universe, and how changes like that are part of the film's themes and narrative. But when people say exactly that in this thread people shout them down as JUSTIFYING RACIST WHITEWASHING.
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Apr 21, 2017 06:31
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Milky Moor posted:But when people say exactly that in this thread people shout them down as JUSTIFYING RACIST WHITEWASHING. No, people get a hostile response when they pretend the problem doesn't exist. This thread is full of interesting discussions of race, identity and how those two relate to the film and other works in the franchise.
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Apr 21, 2017 07:14
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Yeah, the discussion on race in this thread has been civil and thoughtful.
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Apr 21, 2017 08:21
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It's probably been said somewhere upthread, but I don't think the whitewashing was even a quarter of the reason why the movie failed. For it to be an significant issue, your audience has to know they were originally a different race, and the protagonist in some anime isn't something your general audience knows in the first place. The Last Airbender didn't flop because of its whitewashing, it flopped because the audience didn't care about The Last Airbender.
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Apr 21, 2017 10:44
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I said come in! posted:Ghost in the Shell got destroyed by the white washing which turned out to really not be the case about the movie and is apart of the story, but good luck explaining that to people. I mean you guys are debating about white washing with a guy who refuses to watch one of the more racially diverse Hollywood franchises out there.
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Apr 21, 2017 17:19
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Ersatz posted:Congrats on being racist, I guess. It's racist to think that a white person taking about whitewashing doesn't hold much if any weight at all? I'd much rather hear from Asian Americans about what they think about being denied representation once again!
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Apr 21, 2017 17:22
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Hey guys I totally agree that the whitewashing in this movie totally sucks but is it cool if I bring up something else? So there's that scene in which Kuze tells Major not to take her weird medicine because it The character who feels like she is in the wrong body gets told to stop taking her meds. The character who isn't quite sure what's real and what's not gets told to stop taking her meds. Maybe I'm reading too much into this because I've been spending a lot of time on mental health and trans issues but I thought that was pretty disgusting.
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Apr 21, 2017 17:38
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MisterBibs posted:It's probably been said somewhere upthread, but I don't think the whitewashing was even a quarter of the reason why the movie failed. For it to be an significant issue, your audience has to know they were originally a different race, and the protagonist in some anime isn't something your general audience knows in the first place. When Paramount publicly concluded that whitewashing killed the movie, the probably didn't mean whitewashing itself but the whitewashing controversy. The articles complaining about the whitewashing, the news reporting there was a whitewashing controversy, your friends on Facebook telling you that you're horrible if you go see this movie, etc. I agree most people probably don't care about whitewashed casting, but they probably do care if it looks like going to a movie is going to come with fun-killing controversy baggage. Movies with worse marketing and worse reviews have made more money.
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Apr 21, 2017 17:47
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BiggestOrangeTree posted:The character who feels like she is in the wrong body gets told to stop taking her meds. The drugs are brainwashing her into believing that her wrong-body is actually her right body. If we read it as applicable to the trans experience, then the drugs are magic sci-fi drugs that are suppressing her desire to be her true inner/mental self that is mismatched to her outer form. They're more akin to a pharmaceutical version of anti-trans conversion therapy than drugs used to transition her to a changed body that she wants.
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Apr 21, 2017 17:56
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Alan_Shore posted:It's racist to think that a white person taking about whitewashing doesn't hold much if any weight at all? Incidentally, and since you're apparently so concerned to learn about the perspectives of people-who-are-not-white, my Chinese wife and Asian-American friends don't give a poo poo about the alleged whitewashing. I know this because I spoke with them. As opposed to assuming, based on their races, what they would think and feel about the issue. Ersatz fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 21:01
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Bugblatter posted:Uh, Fast and Furious 5-7 are legit great action movies. You are missing out. I always tell people to at least just watch #5, it's Ocean's 11 set in Rio and stars The Rock.
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Apr 21, 2017 21:29
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duz posted:I always tell people to at least just watch #5, it's Ocean's 11 set in Rio and stars The Rock.
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Apr 21, 2017 21:31
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Ersatz posted:Yes. It's undeniably racist to discount a person's opinion based on their race. As opposed to, you know, considering the content of the opinion itself. That's not really a difficult concept to grasp. I disagree. A white person saying "there's no problem with white-washing! Audiences just LOVE watching white people!" means little to me. If other races said the same thing, that holds more weight. Like if a black person said a white person's view on racism in America wasn't equal to theirs, I would totally agree with them. Because how could I know? I'm white. My Asian-American girlfriend is very concerned with the lack of Asian-American roles and role models out there, and I'm much more aware of such issues nowadays. Here you had the perfect film to maybe launch an Asian star, but no you had to go with a white woman. And it bombed. Good. Did I assume what they would think? Or would I rather just have a different perspective? You're very snide. It's uncharismatic. It's good your friends and wife don't care. I was just interested in getting more opinions by those directly affected by these casting choices. Turns out some people care and some don't!
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Apr 21, 2017 21:40
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Alan_Shore posted:It's racist to think that a white person taking about whitewashing doesn't hold much if any weight at all? Why would they cast an Asian American instead of an Asian, after all the movie takes place in pseudo-Hong Kong. That's westernwashing! Edit: I do acknowledge that whitewashing is a problem, but I think that Ghost In The Shell is not the greatest example of it and you are actually sabotaging your own argument if you are going to bring it up as such in the future. It's almost as bad as Cloud Atlas in that regard. Mierenneuker fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 22:05
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Ersatz posted:Is it confusing to start with that one, or is it not a problem to dive in to the series at that point? Fast 5 implies all the backstories the same way Ocean's 11 does, they just happen to match up to some stuff that happened in previous movies. Totally fine to jump in there.
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Apr 21, 2017 22:11
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There really isn't an F&F movie better than a solid C+, and most of them come in far below that. Torque (2004) for example is far better than any F&F entry.
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Apr 21, 2017 22:23
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Fast 5 is really fun. I don't care for the first F&F at all as it's a blatant ripoff of Point Break but does everything worse. I basically haven't seen any of the other ones. I saw the fourth one in the theater and liked it better than the first one, but it's utterly forgettable.
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Apr 21, 2017 22:45
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Mierenneuker posted:Why would they cast an Asian American instead of an Asian, after all the movie takes place in pseudo-Hong Kong. That's westernwashing! And I'm tired of whitewashing being brushed off because examples aren't good enough. Like, was 21 good enough of an example? I've seen enough white liberals decide even that didn't qualify their weird and specific goalposts of proving whitewashing is a problem that exists. I keep coming back to the question, "What more proof do you want?" I really feel like whitewashing has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt here, but people are just throwing in new ways to criticize the critics because they're so mad they won't just sit back and enjoy the Edit: Also, your first question is fecetious, but I'll make a point of saying that ScarJo is neither Asian or Asian American. She's a white woman. You're deflecting the controversy away from the movie's decisions itself. Like, who's feet are you trying to hold to the fire here? Echo Chamber fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 22:58
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Echo Chamber posted:GITS and Cloud Atlas are about as good examples of Hollywood's whitewashing and tone deafness when it comes to race as examples can get. Absolutely! If this isn't white washing, what is? What would be?
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Apr 21, 2017 23:35
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Alan_Shore posted:Absolutely! If this isn't white washing, what is? What would be?
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Apr 21, 2017 23:39
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Alan_Shore posted:I disagree. A white person saying "there's no problem with white-washing! Audiences just LOVE watching white people!" means little to me. Alan_Shore posted:If other races said the same thing, that holds more weight. I mean, look at this poo poo right here: Ersatz posted:Yes. It's undeniably racist to discount a person's opinion based on their race. As opposed to, you know, considering the content of the opinion itself. That's not really a difficult concept to grasp. Alan_Shore posted:I disagree. A white person saying "there's no problem with white-washing! Audiences just LOVE watching white people!" means little to me. If other races said the same thing, that holds more weight. Like if a black person said a white person's view on racism in America wasn't equal to theirs, I would totally agree with them. Because how could I know? I'm white. Ersatz fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 23:56
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Steve Yun posted:When Paramount publicly concluded that whitewashing killed the movie, the probably didn't mean whitewashing itself but the whitewashing controversy. The articles complaining about the whitewashing, the news reporting there was a whitewashing controversy, your friends on Facebook telling you that you're horrible if you go see this movie, etc. But that's the rub of the issue, isn't it? I would guess that in a Venn diagram of people who know about the controversy and people who watch/know/care about anime, it would be a near-circle. Like, if this movie needed 200 people seeing it to be a comfortable success, I would figure maybe 130 of them decided to see the movie or not entirely on the (lovely) advertising, not about its faithfulness to the original, including the race of the main character being different/similar to the source.
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Apr 22, 2017 00:07
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MisterBibs posted:It's probably been said somewhere upthread, but I don't think the whitewashing was even a quarter of the reason why the movie failed. For it to be an significant issue, your audience has to know they were originally a different race, and the protagonist in some anime isn't something your general audience knows in the first place. I think for these nerd movies, you need the relatively low numbered, but high passioned, fan base to spread the good word about them. This movie went out of its way to alienate as many as they could before premiered. I think that's what sank the stake into its B.O. It takes alot for ordinary folks to go see a sci-fi movie with this level of non-familiarity, and good and passionate word of mouth is key. E: Mierenneuker posted:Why would they cast an Asian American instead of an Asian, after all the movie takes place in pseudo-Hong Kong. That's westernwashing! We covered the reason why you would want Asian Americans, and not be as sad about the lack of inclusions of foreign Asian people earlier in the thread. Namely that Asian Americans face a unique set of circumstances and lack of opportunities in our culture based largely on their ethnicity, a thing that doesn't translate to people that don't have to live here, unless they reside here. Shageletic fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 22, 2017 00:08
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MisterBibs posted:But that's the rub of the issue, isn't it? I would guess that in a Venn diagram of people who know about the controversy and people who watch/know/care about anime, it would be a near-circle. Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 22, 2017 00:26
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Shageletic posted:I think for these nerd movies, you need the relatively low numbered, but high passioned, fan base to spread the good word about them. I'm not so convinced of that. If anything, it's the opposite. If you shoot for making a movie for the low-numbered fan base, you're going to suck poo poo at the BO even if you max out that fanbase. The real value is in the Everybody Else, because they are the numbers you need to be successful. The movie wasn't a failure because it pissed off the core fanbase, but because it did nothing to appeal to/interest the Everybody Else. To use another movie series as an example, did the wailing and gnashing of teeth about how Autobots and Deceptions matter one bit to the Transformers objective success? Nope, because only the fan base gave a rat's rear end about that.
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Apr 22, 2017 00:32
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I agree the whitewashing aspect was problematic. This is the kind of film I would've assumed an actress like Rinko Kikuchi to play the Major, personally. What made it particularly jarring was that the head of Section 9 only spoke Japanese the whole time. It bugged me that they called her 'Major' which I guess was relegated to a callsign because it was obviously not a military rank like I remember the TV series Major to have. Aside from this, I wonder if anime adaptations suffer the same problem that video game adaptations suffer- producers feel that the subject matter itself is too niche and need to expand (in this case, get a white actress to play the Major) bowderdizing and anglicizing stuff to the point that nobody is happy; the weaboos are going to be complaining about all these little details that didn't carry over and people unfamiliar with anime are going to be  even at the most watered-down presentation. It makes you really wonder about the dubious prospect of Battle Angel Alita or Akira as a live-action production.
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Apr 22, 2017 01:01
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Panfilo posted:Aside from this, I wonder if anime adaptations suffer the same problem that video game adaptations suffer- producers feel that the subject matter itself is too niche and need to expand (in this case, get a white actress to play the Major) bowderdizing and anglicizing stuff to the point that nobody is happy; the weaboos are going to be complaining about all these little details that didn't carry over and people unfamiliar with anime are going to be This is entirely the case, and you said it better then I could've.
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Apr 22, 2017 01:03
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MisterBibs posted:It's probably been said somewhere upthread, but I don't think the whitewashing was even a quarter of the reason why the movie failed. For it to be an significant issue, your audience has to know they were originally a different race, and the protagonist in some anime isn't something your general audience knows in the first place. The whitewashing meant that fans of the original weren't evangelising and schilling for it willingly for months on end before it came out. Fandom is practically a component of marketing now (Disney has tapped into this exceptionally well) and GITS (and Airbender) did not have them on board. It didn't necessarily have a negative impact, but it removed a positive impact that association with a beloved nerd property tends to enjoy. Contrast it with how eager comic book fans are to explain all the lore and minutae behind the latest Marvel film. Panfilo posted:Aside from this, I wonder if anime adaptations suffer the same problem that video game adaptations suffer- producers feel that the subject matter itself is too niche and need to expand (in this case, get a white actress to play the Major) bowderdizing and anglicizing stuff to the point that nobody is happy; the weaboos are going to be complaining about all these little details that didn't carry over and people unfamiliar with anime are going to be gently caress, exactly what I was trying to say, but with better words. dont even fink about it posted:There really isn't an F&F movie better than a solid C+, and most of them come in far below that. Torque (2004) for example is far better than any F&F entry. I will fight you. In all seriousness, Ebert described it best when he called Justin Lin "a first-rate director in this second-rate genre." They're dopey car chase movies, but they're loving fantastic dopery car chase movies. Especially 5 and 6, and especially 6. Snak posted:I basically haven't seen any of the other ones. I saw the fourth one in the theater and liked it better than the first one, but it's utterly forgettable. That's the general consensus on 4. It's not interesting enough to be Tokyo Drift (which is really just a drama that involves car racing) but not crazy enough to be 5, 6 or 7.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:01
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1. Tokyo Drift is the best F&F movie. By which I mean it's a fun little anime about racing cars, complete with high school setting and YAKUZA. My guess if it had just dropped the Fast and Furious title it would have been a fun standalone movie that nobody would have watched. And nothing of value would have been lost. 2. Cloud Atlas was an interesting movie. 3. D&D sure is leaking.
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Apr 22, 2017 04:12
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Cloud Atlas was another movie where the people who evangelized it kept shouting "BUT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND" in defense of its yellowface, pointing to the film's supposed internal consistency ("but it had whiteface too!") and new age horseshit about the transience of identity or whatever, arguing as if the movie could only be properly judged in a total vacuum or something like that. People who criticized the movie "got it" but still pointed out how tone deaf it was to have the guy who metaphorically wore yellowface in 21 to literally wear it. And that the gimmick use of yellowface was a loving selling point of the film.
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Apr 22, 2017 04:25
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You don't have to go into new age horseshit for Cloud Atlas, it's just a case of the lead characters all having multiple roles. It's uncomfortable to look at times, definitely*, but I think it's a stretch to make a case that Korean/Asian-American actors were denied a role. There are more blatant, way more bullshit examples of whitewashing. I'm not saying it's irrelevant, but you've got better options in your toolbox in this matter. *Halle Berry's Asian doctor was clearly a case of them caring more about making her look unrecognizable instead of making her look like an actual human being. It's pretty bizarre in a segment that deals with "fake" humans (mass produced clones iirc).
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Apr 22, 2017 09:16
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In Cloud Atlas the multinational cast is portraying the eugenic rulers of future Seoul. The Asian woman starring in that segment is the only 'authentic Asian,' who in context is ironically cloned to be a slave by these 'white devils.' (Later, Hugo Weaving literally portrays a white devil telling Tom Hanks that Halle Berry is a jezebel.) The problem with the film is not what it depicts superficially, but what it illustrates by omission. It does not go too far, but clearly does not go far enough in provoking the audience. Halle Berry and all her light-skinned co-stars can portray Asians (including Indians, because not all Asians are "yellow"), Europeans and settlers, indigenous peoples, Latinos, and hypothetical future races - and they can even change gender/sex - but even within the facile, colorblind, new agey imaginary of the story, nobody can imagine a tasteful execution of Asian or white actors portraying Africans/African-descendent peoples. Cloud Atlas, in terms about which socially conscious liberals and fan cults keep agitating, is obviously more 'progressive' than the vast majority of North American/European film productions, because it actually stars two Asian women, who play multiple roles which are not hamstrung by the assumption that they needs must play 'Asian roles.' On the other hand, the film is also just as reactionary as The Matrix trilogy (which features a multiracial star) in terms of its ideological narrative. (The filmmakers are also trans women.) Again, you have to move beyond reductive fetishism for the arbitrary, symbolic victory of what an actor superficially looks like, and interrogate the ideology behind which the character stands. K. Waste fucked around with this message at 13:40 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 22, 2017 13:35
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Panfilo posted:I agree the whitewashing aspect was problematic. This is the kind of film I would've assumed an actress like Rinko Kikuchi to play the Major, personally. What made it particularly jarring was that the head of Section 9 only spoke Japanese the whole time. It bugged me that they called her 'Major' which I guess was relegated to a callsign because it was obviously not a military rank like I remember the TV series Major to have. The whole point of the live action remake of Ghost in the Shell is that Major had her identity taken away from her. Calling her Major wasn't just some pointless call back to the anime, it was the entire point of the story. She was a Japanese teenage girl that was kidnapped by a corporation that specializes in cybernetic implants, and they transport her brain into a cyborg body that is a white woman, this decision was made by a white American man of all people. How wrong it is to erase the identity of a person, and seeing it done by a white man at that, is the whole basis of the movie. I said come in! fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 22, 2017 15:52
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The white washing in Netflix' upcoming adaption of Death Note bothers me more. They changed it to take place in America with all white kids, but they're still calling the main character "Kira". He was Kira in the anime because that's Killer pronounced with an accent.
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Apr 22, 2017 18:30
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They should have changed his name to Killian.
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Apr 22, 2017 18:33
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