Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

rj54x: Sep 16, 2007

I'm sure bitching about tavern is fairly verboten, but this thread - https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=23390&sid=90b08f983cbc7a65325d0d22e6f28995 - is such a shining example of the weird mindset around crawl development. On one hand, we have any number of instances where the position taken is that flavor and fun are not important and totally separate/secondary to concerns of what HOM might do. On the other hand, we have pages and pages of people arguing about how lajatangs need to go because they're examples of "oriental mysticism" or saying there's a problem with loving lindwurms because they're based on a german word?

I just don't get it.

# ? Apr 21, 2017 13:28

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# ? May 15, 2024 00:09

Carcer: Aug 7, 2010

Jesus christ, I'm joking whenever I say angels or whatever need to go because they reference something, I didn't seriously think people could be so mind numbingly hostile to foreign things that they would argue "lajatang" or "rhakshasa" needs to go.

# ? Apr 21, 2017 14:27

FulsomFrank: Sep 11, 2005; Hard on for love

Hahahahaha they're actually talking seriously about the goddam katana orientalist poo poo

# ? Apr 21, 2017 14:42

Prism: Dec 22, 2007; yospos

Carcer posted:

Jesus christ, I'm joking whenever I say angels or whatever need to go because they reference something, I didn't seriously think people could be so mind numbingly hostile to foreign things that they would argue "lajatang" or "rhakshasa" needs to go.

I don't like lajatangs but that's more because they don't exist and aren't cool enough to be triple swords. Also they feel more like a polearm than a staff.

They should be replaced with the three-part staff, or the triple staff for short.

I'm half-kidding about the three-part staff, but lajatangs are from D&D and I'm not a huge fan. Even a monk's spade would be better, which is probably what the D&D designers were thinking of anyway (crescent on one end, spade-like blade on the other... and it's not sharpened).

Prism fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Apr 21, 2017

# ? Apr 21, 2017 14:59

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

FulsomFrank posted:

Hahahahaha they're actually talking seriously about the goddam katana orientalist poo poo

I do agree that there's a limit to removing things that are offensive and completely removing flavor. Renaming Jihad, removing the word exotic from non-Western weapons, and making sure swastika vaults don't generate the Nazi type of swastika are fine in my opinion. Removing the entirety of eastern style weaponry doesn't really make sense because I don't think anyone is actually offended by a lajatang existing?

# ? Apr 21, 2017 15:08

Sage Grimm: Feb 18, 2013; Let's go explorin' little dude!

Rename clubs to ankus because if they are as common as dirt in Crawl, they're not exotic! :v:

# ? Apr 21, 2017 15:15

tote up a bags: Jun 8, 2006; die stoats die

Trog sounds VERY Scandinavian, please rename to Trevor

# ? Apr 21, 2017 17:05

Nuclearmonkee: Jun 10, 2009

FulsomFrank posted:

Hahahahaha they're actually talking seriously about the goddam katana orientalist poo poo

I like how the agreed upon alternative is to pretend anything from Asia doesn't exist and remove it from the game.

# ? Apr 21, 2017 17:10

Decrepus: May 21, 2008; In the end, his dominion did not touch a single poster.

Please remove exotic dancer god.

# ? Apr 21, 2017 17:11

Decrepus: May 21, 2008; In the end, his dominion did not touch a single poster.

I don't know what weapons 0.21 will be played with but 0.22 will be played with Sticks and Stones.

# ? Apr 21, 2017 17:13

Obfuscation: Jan 1, 2008; Good luck to you, I know you believe in hell

I miss the guy with the surf board

# ? Apr 21, 2017 17:14

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Decrepus posted:

I don't know what weapons 0.21 will be played with but 0.22 will be played with Sticks and Stones.

Actually, the stones got removed too. Sticks are currently still in, but they are on the cutting board.

# ? Apr 21, 2017 17:15

Half of Dracula: Oct 24, 2008; Perhaps the same could be

I don't know what weapons 0.21 will be played with but 0.22 will be played with Sticks to Snakes

# ? Apr 21, 2017 17:17

Speleothing: May 6, 2008; Spare batteries are pretty key.

Obfuscation posted:

I miss the guy with the surf board

Same

# ? Apr 21, 2017 17:34

FulsomFrank: Sep 11, 2005; Hard on for love

Obfuscation posted:

I miss the guy with the surf board

That was fun and quirky, so naturally it had no place in the gritty, hyper-realistic non-Tolkien fantasy world of Dungeon Crawl.

# ? Apr 21, 2017 17:58

mdct: Sep 2, 2011; Tingle tingle kooloo limpah.
These are my magic words.
Don't steal them.

lajatangs aren't even real weapons they're something someone made up after seeing a monk's spade

# ? Apr 21, 2017 18:29

Yngwie Mangosteen: Aug 23, 2007

rj54x posted:

I'm sure bitching about tavern is fairly verboten, but this thread - https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=23390&sid=90b08f983cbc7a65325d0d22e6f28995 - is such a shining example of the weird mindset around crawl development. On one hand, we have any number of instances where the position taken is that flavor and fun are not important and totally separate/secondary to concerns of what HOM might do. On the other hand, we have pages and pages of people arguing about how lajatangs need to go because they're examples of "oriental mysticism" or saying there's a problem with loving lindwurms because they're based on a german word?

I just don't get it.

Oh my god Duvessa .

quote:

NOTE: If you don't care about Crawl's theme/flavour at all, or you unironically complain about "political correctness", you should probably go back to complaining about food or high elves instead of "participating" here.

Like, this is a prime example of a person who should be ignored. It's obvious from everything minqmay/Duvessa writes.

edit: Duvessa goes on to attach WJC even further, and complains about 'lajatangs' as 'oriental' because they're made up. Like, you're not even allowed to have a made up weapon in Duvessa's eyes because it might seem offensive to someone somewhere maybe.

Yngwie Mangosteen fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Apr 21, 2017

# ? Apr 21, 2017 19:12

mdct: Sep 2, 2011; Tingle tingle kooloo limpah.
These are my magic words.
Don't steal them.

See here's the thing: all of this is screaming offensive to me from the opposite side, where this all comes off as like 100% purestrain eurocentrism and hating on content diversity

Edit: This is misguided white people going far too hard in the opposite direction and causing the exact problematic thing they're complaining about, basically

mdct fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Apr 21, 2017

# ? Apr 21, 2017 19:38

Araganzar: May 24, 2003; Needs more cowbell!; Fun Shoe

Mighty Dicktron posted:

See here's the thing: all of this is screaming offensive to me from the opposite side, where this all comes off as like 100% purestrain eurocentrism and hating on content diversity

Edit: This is misguided white people going far too hard in the opposite direction and causing the exact problematic thing they're complaining about, basically

This is how I felt, to a lesser extent, for me it was more that people were actually trying to witch hunt the devs responsible. That's beyond the pale.

I made as much of an effort post as I've ever made there and the only result was someone said something sarcastic and lovely back to me and got the thread locked. At least when you get dumped on in SA it usually comes with a critique.

# ? Apr 21, 2017 19:51

Ramc: May 4, 2008; Bringing your thread to a screeching halt, guaranteed.

Nuclearmonkee posted:

I like how the agreed upon alternative is to pretend anything from Asia doesn't exist and remove it from the game.

Ramc posted:

# ? Apr 21, 2017 19:56

vOv: Feb 8, 2014

Araganzar posted:

This is how I felt, to a lesser extent, for me it was more that people were actually trying to witch hunt the devs responsible. That's beyond the pale.

I made as much of an effort post as I've ever made there and the only result was someone said something sarcastic and lovely back to me and got the thread locked. At least when you get dumped on in SA it usually comes with a critique.

Yeah like I could understand renaming the Sword of Jihad because hey maybe having Jihad in the name of a sword that causes berserkitis isn't the best thing given modern politics. But renaming the katana is just weird.

vOv fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Apr 21, 2017

# ? Apr 21, 2017 20:31

Amuys: Jan 2, 2017; Muuch Muuch

Are humans good for anything yet?
I ascended with a human Death Knight way back when

# ? Apr 21, 2017 21:22

Yngwie Mangosteen: Aug 23, 2007

Amuys posted:

Are humans good for anything yet?
I ascended with a human Death Knight way back when

They were voted 'species least likely to be removed despite appearing in Tolkein' I think?

# ? Apr 21, 2017 21:43

Amuys: Jan 2, 2017; Muuch Muuch

Captain Monkey posted:

They were voted 'species least likely to be removed despite appearing in Tolkein' I think?

Ah, so the purpose of a control variable then.

# ? Apr 21, 2017 22:00

Araganzar: May 24, 2003; Needs more cowbell!; Fun Shoe

Amuys posted:

Are humans good for anything yet?
I ascended with a human Death Knight way back when

Ask me about my 129 deaths when I was challenged to complete a Mennas run (start HuPr of Zin, switch to longswords and TSO at temple, learn silence, clear Tomb).

# ? Apr 21, 2017 22:00

Araganzar: May 24, 2003; Needs more cowbell!; Fun Shoe

vOv posted:

Yeah like I could understand renaming the Sword of Jihad because hey maybe having Jihad in the name of a sword that causes berserkitis isn't the best thing given modern politics. But renaming the katana is just weird.

Yeah, I think there was a point to be made there.

One of the cool things about Crawl is you can always go back and play older releases.

In fact, minutes ago, the luckiest little purple-hatted centaur in the world was poking through an elven treasure vault and...

I got Shaolin, too. I'm so offensive I'm not sure I need the bow to kill things...

# ? Apr 21, 2017 23:15

LordSloth: Mar 7, 2008; Disgruntled (IT) Employee

Humans? I dunno, maybe the perfect ashenzari wanderer.

# ? Apr 22, 2017 04:14

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

Lajatangs are cool and fun who loving cares if they aren't a real weapon. You know how many things aren't real in Crawl? Why is this even a loving issue. If all the eastern stuff offends people for some reason just flavor it as being from the Desolation of Salt or something.

# ? Apr 22, 2017 04:19

Prism: Dec 22, 2007; yospos

Internet Kraken posted:

Lajatangs are cool and fun who loving cares if they aren't a real weapon. You know how many things aren't real in Crawl? Why is this even a loving issue. If all the eastern stuff offends people for some reason just flavor it as being from the Desolation of Salt or something.

Because they look dumb and are not cool. :colbert:

I'm not like 'THEY MUST GO NOW OR I WILL BE UNHAPPY FOR LIFE' but I don't like them. I'm allowed that, right?

# ? Apr 22, 2017 04:49

Reginald Bathwater: Dec 19, 2009; MINE EYES CAN BUT WEEP AS THEY BEAR WITNESS TO THE MAJESTY... THE BFG 9000!

Lajatangs should be reflavored as that Klingon blade thing.

# ? Apr 22, 2017 05:16

mdct: Sep 2, 2011; Tingle tingle kooloo limpah.
These are my magic words.
Don't steal them.

Internet Kraken posted:

Lajatangs are cool and fun who loving cares if they aren't a real weapon. You know how many things aren't real in Crawl? Why is this even a loving issue. If all the eastern stuff offends people for some reason just flavor it as being from the Desolation of Salt or something.

It's not that they're not real, it's that they're ~exotic eastern mysticism~ or some poo poo. I only brought up that they weren't real because it makes that explanation for getting rid of them even more dumb.

# ? Apr 22, 2017 05:22

Devlan Mud: Apr 10, 2006; I'll hear your stories when we come back, alright?

gotta put a stop to the oriental and tolkien cultural appropriation

# ? Apr 22, 2017 05:38

Jonah Galtberg: Feb 11, 2009

Trolls? Tolkien, cut
Hydras? Exotic Greek mysticism, cut
Orcs? Tolkien, cut
Goblins? Tolkien, cut
Spriggans? Exotic Cornish mysticism, cut
Nagas? Exotic Hindu mysticism, cut
Kobolds? Exotic Germanic mysticism, cut
Minotaurs? Exotic Greek mysticism, cut
Mummies? Exotic Egyptian mysticism, cut
Efreet? Exotic Arab mysticism, cut
Harpies? Exotic Greek mysticism, cut
Sirens? Exotic Greek mysticism, cut
Satyrs? Exotic Greek mysticism, cut
Fauns? Exotic Greek mysticism, cut
Merfolk? Exotic Assyrian mysticism, cut
Wargs? Tolkien, cut
Zombies? Exotic Voodoo mysticism, cut
Gargoyles? Exotic French mysticism, cut
Krakens? Exotic Greek mysticism, cut
Wights? Tolkien, cut
Centaurs? Exotic Greek mysticism, cut

Jonah Galtberg fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Apr 22, 2017

# ? Apr 22, 2017 06:11

apple: May 18, 2003; Jose in the club wearing orange suspenders

Captain Monkey posted:

Like, this is a prime example of a person who should be ignored. It's obvious from everything minqmay/Duvessa writes.

That entire thread is a mess; I seriously doubt you can have a discussion in good faith about cultural and religious appropriation/misappropriation in tavern (or most gaming communities including here, to be fair). It's obvious that there's lingering resentment towards "Sword of Jihad"-like changes from players; the "political correctness" line is a pretty clear jab at these people, it might as well be troll bait. If anything that thread seems highly destructive because there's an unfortunate amount of energy and attention being spent by a portion of crawldev in keeping that topic going.

# ? Apr 22, 2017 06:15

Yngwie Mangosteen: Aug 23, 2007

Yeah dude, its Duvessa.

# ? Apr 22, 2017 06:59

Araganzar: May 24, 2003; Needs more cowbell!; Fun Shoe

Internet Kraken posted:

Lajatangs are cool and fun who loving cares if they aren't a real weapon. You know how many things aren't real in Crawl? Why is this even a loving issue. If all the eastern stuff offends people for some reason just flavor it as being from the Desolation of Salt or something.

I am pretty tempted right now clone the repo and start changing all the "exotic flavor" in game so it references the Desolation of Salt, or more specifically whatever fallen empire used to hold sway and whatever divine force soddomed the gomorrah out of them. Could even say something about the lajatang about archaeologists that discover this amazing weapon and their native guides don't have the heart to tell them it was a farming implement.

Guys, I am a greater one and won now and I expect to be treated with the dignity due this high station.

code:

1401080 araganzar the Corrupter of Planes (level 27, 235/235 HPs)
             Began as a Centaur Abyssal Knight on Apr 17, 2017.
             Was the Champion of Lugonu.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 3 runes on Apr 22, 2017!
             
             The game lasted 10:09:08 (134484 turns).

araganzar the Corrupter of Planes (CeAK)          Turns: 134484, Time: 10:09:08

Health: 235/235    AC: 45    Str: 27    XL:     27
Magic:  28/35      EV: 35    Int: 11    God:    Lugonu [******]
Gold:   900        SH:  6    Dex: 27    Spells: 16 memorised, 1 level left

rFire  + + .      SeeInvis +    a - +8 bow of Krishna "Sharnga" {speed, Dex+3 SInv, CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE}
rCold  + + +      Gourm    .    F - +7 Kryia's mail coat {DeviceHeal*2 rC+}
rNeg   + + .      Faith    .    (shield currently unavailable)
rPois  +          Spirit   .    V - -2 hat of the Alchemist {rElec rPois rF+ rC+ rN+ MR+ rMut rCorr}
rElec  +          Dismiss  .    H - +2 cloak {MR+}
rCorr  +          Reflect  +    I - +2 pair of gloves {Str+3}
rMut   +          Harm     .    B - +10 Black Knight's horse barding {ponderous, rPois rN+}
SustAt .                        W - +6 amulet of reflection
MR     +++++                    R - ring "Uchupimp" {AC+3 Str-4 Dex+5}
Stlth  +.........               y - ring of Shaolin {EV+8}

Wearing a dead queen's clothes, wearing a heritical ring, and carrying a bow whose name threatens the very fabric of existence, I managed to trigger everyone who came into chat.

"You think Alchemists just get everything handed to them? I had to work hard for every resist I have!"
"Oh, so the BLACK Knight's slow, huh?"
"I am notifying the Kryia liaison about this immediately!"

Seriously, finding Sharnga and BK Barding on a Ce is just :psyduck:

and Shoalin is amazing on a race who could be a good blocker for the broad side of a barn.

# ? Apr 22, 2017 07:40

apple: May 18, 2003; Jose in the club wearing orange suspenders

Captain Monkey posted:

Yeah dude, its Duvessa.

Yeah I mean there's that, but this somehow keeps happening time and time again which is weird. My guess is said person has some perceived clout partly due to "tenure" in the sense that this person has been around since forever, plays a lot and writes massive amounts of words. OTOH the usual problem consistently comes up: presenting things as self-evident fact, or even worse as absolutes (in a game like Crawl this is a good way to ruin a discussion since so many situations aren't black and white at all). This seems to foster the type of discussion where people try to read between the lines, only everyone's interpretation is slightly different and everyone fights each other, it's pretty silly. That thread on "Eurocentrism" is no exception even if the focus is more on the flavor aspects of DCSS.

IDK, maybe it helps to understand the root cause a little more to avoid getting drawn into what seems like wasted effort.

# ? Apr 22, 2017 10:45

Decrepus: May 21, 2008; In the end, his dominion did not touch a single poster.

*in l4d Francis voice* I hate orientals.

# ? Apr 22, 2017 12:10

Decrepus: May 21, 2008; In the end, his dominion did not touch a single poster.

Jonah Galtberg posted:

Trolls? Tolkien, cut
Hydras? Exotic Greek mysticism, cut
Orcs? Tolkien, cut
Goblins? Tolkien, cut
Spriggans? Exotic Cornish mysticism, cut
Nagas? Exotic Hindu mysticism, cut
Kobolds? Exotic Germanic mysticism, cut
Minotaurs? Exotic Greek mysticism, cut
Mummies? Exotic Egyptian mysticism, cut
Efreet? Exotic Arab mysticism, cut
Harpies? Exotic Greek mysticism, cut
Sirens? Exotic Greek mysticism, cut
Satyrs? Exotic Greek mysticism, cut
Fauns? Exotic Greek mysticism, cut
Merfolk? Exotic Assyrian mysticism, cut
Wargs? Tolkien, cut
Zombies? Exotic Voodoo mysticism, cut
Gargoyles? Exotic French mysticism, cut
Krakens? Exotic Greek mysticism, cut
Wights? Tolkien, cut
Centaurs? Exotic Greek mysticism, cut

This guy gets it.

# ? Apr 22, 2017 12:12

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# ? May 15, 2024 00:09

Mu.: Sep 15, 2003; The thing about Forevereal Modding Mu is that he loves editing files and wants others to download his permanent mods. Fully editing, rich text, altering files and loving it. Download his mods and enjoy it.

Petition to rename Dungeon Crawl from Stone Soup to White Bread.

# ? Apr 22, 2017 12:15

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