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tiistai posted:Well since Battler was gone by that time then it implies that they had married by then, right? Death -> Marriage -> Battler leaves -> Family conference with no Battler. Ah. I'm not being clear. Sorry. I meant the last family conference that Battler was at. I'll have the old LP a skim after work to look.
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Apr 21, 2017 15:27
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CottonWolf posted:Ah. I'm not being clear. Sorry. I meant the last family conference that Battler was at. I'll have the old LP a skim after work to look. By the same logic, Kyrie wouldn't have been married to Rudolf yet so naturally she wouldn't have attended the family conference. You mean like Death -> Marriage -> Family conference -> Battler leaves? I don't see how that makes sense, naturally he would have left as soon as possible.
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Apr 21, 2017 15:32
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Ralphomon posted:Without love, it cannot be solved. I guess that's emblematic of this 5th game - with Lambdadelta as GM, she doesn't really care that much as to whether Battler can actually solve the mystery (and she's said before I can't remember exactly when that she doesn't know why Beato makes so many superfluous or risky moves - Beato's love for Battler (i.e. the mystery author's love for their audience) means she has to leave clues so that he can solve it, whereas LD would just be like, screw it, Victim X is in a (pun not intended) hermetically sealed vault deep under Rokkenshima and still managed to get stabbed through the face, *cacklecackle*, it's coz I'm a witch). So she constructs this loveless mess of circumstantial evidence that Bern and (terrible, terrible) Erika can just waltz into and blow wide open to prove that a witch didn't do it. But since we've established that Beato's real motivation is not to assert her existence but instead get Battler to remember his sin, the whole thing is empty and self-serving, and kinda mechanical (turn the Knox's Decalogue crank, of course Natsuhi did it coz no-one else could have). This is not a path I would have considered, but it does explain a bit. If this is their definition of 'love' for the story, then Ronove saying that the story was without 'honour' also makes sense. Having a story which proposes that it can be solved yet hides the tools to do so from your sight - that's a story without 'honour'. That said, that means there are clues which have not been presented which can solve the CASE.
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Apr 21, 2017 15:39
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tiistai posted:By the same logic, Kyrie wouldn't have been married to Rudolf yet so naturally she wouldn't have attended the family conference. You mean like Death -> Marriage -> Family conference -> Battler leaves? I don't see how that makes sense, naturally he would have left as soon as possible. Yeah. That makes sense. There goes my half-formed Kyrie Beatrice theory.
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Apr 21, 2017 15:44
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Cyouni posted:That said, that means there are clues which have not been presented which can solve the CASE. Well this blue is laughably easy to counter with Knox's 8th. In fact, it was already pretty much directly addressed during the trial. ProfessorProf posted:
vvv Exactly. Of course it can also apply to self-contained mysteries, like the case in Kinzo's study. tiistai fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 15:49
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"Unless she's caught red-handed, you should never be able to deny the possibility that Aunt Natsuhi is innocent!! Can you even deny future possibilities, like if a piece of evidence X that Erika hasn't discovered proves Natsuhi's innocence?!"
"Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!!"
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That only applies if the detective has said they're about to show us the solution, since until that point we might expect new evidence. Of course, that did already happen, didn't it? The fact that the detective was wrong doesn't change that.
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Apr 21, 2017 16:01
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I can easily imagine how the garden conversation about love could have gone if Erika were present. She's definitely the type of person who would keep a duct tape seal on her lover's underpants.
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Apr 21, 2017 16:33
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CottonWolf posted:What do you do when you get to the hilt? Tip it over, then slide all the way back down to to the other end? That sounds very painful and inefficient. The Dante method is to pull the hilt through your body with cartoonish quantities of blood fountaining out of him. I believe the handle and crossguard end up clipping through his head. It's very silly.
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Apr 21, 2017 16:38
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Tender Child Loins posted:I can easily imagine how the garden conversation about love could have gone if Erika were present. She's definitely the type of person who would keep a duct tape seal on her lover's underpants. Putting aside whether or not she can even feel love herself, she would probably say that love can only exist if there's far more evidence for it than against it: for example, her own continuous adulation of her master without any regard for her own self would be her proof of "love", even though she obviously isn't loved back. Needless to say, if you've ever loved something/someone, that kind of viewpoint comes across as rather pathetic, although it's technically a valid interpretation.
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Apr 21, 2017 17:08
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Like, say, between a 12-year-old aristocrat and a 10-year-old orphan Anyway, this whole thing reminded me, Battler is a fan of mystery stories. It is totally reasonable for Beato to know this. So then can't we think of the bottle stories as just that, murder mystery stories written as a gift for Battler for this long-awaited return. Somewhere along the way the plan changed and fan-fiction about murdering his whole family became actually murdering his whole family.
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Apr 21, 2017 17:23
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tiistai posted:Well this blue is laughably easy to counter with Knox's 8th. In fact, it was already pretty much directly addressed during the trial. Ah, but that was before that conversation, before we got an idea of what they consider to be 'love' in the case of that mystery (or board, as Ronove might refer to it). Given the clues that have now been presented, it's possible to declare that the solution to the entire case of episode 5 is that the mystery, lacking love or honour, is purposefully created as unsolvable by Lambdadelta. Ronove draws a direct comparison to Beato's games, saying Lambda's game lacks love (or honour, depending on the perspective). Here, we're given the definition of love as it relates to the mystery genre, and the specific reference to works that do not follow the Decalogue is brought up. These are now clues that have been presented.
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Apr 21, 2017 17:27
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Cyouni posted:Ah, but that was before that conversation, before we got an idea of what they consider to be 'love' in the case of that mystery (or board, as Ronove might refer to it). Given the clues that have now been presented, it's possible to declare that the solution to the entire case of episode 5 is that the mystery, lacking love or honour, is purposefully created as unsolvable by Lambdadelta. Ronove draws a direct comparison to Beato's games, saying Lambda's game lacks love (or honour, depending on the perspective). Here, we're given the definition of love as it relates to the mystery genre, and the specific reference to works that do not follow the Decalogue is brought up. These are now clues that have been presented. If that's your interpretation, I have no legit counter. Let me just say that that's not all that Ronove said about Lambda's game.
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Apr 21, 2017 17:52
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thetruegentleman posted:Putting aside whether or not she can even feel love herself, she would probably say that love can only exist if there's far more evidence for it than against it: for example, her own continuous adulation of her master without any regard for her own self would be her proof of "love", even though she obviously isn't loved back. I think the expression she pulls while talking about love quite strongly implies that someone seriously screwed her over in that department at one point or other.
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Apr 21, 2017 18:09
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Didn't Ronove also say Lambda would make moves Beato could have made, but wouldn't have made. I think the most obvious move Lambda made is to create a crime that can be pinned on a human who isn't Beatrice. So I thought back to EP2, and who was the first human Beato tried to get Battler to pin the blame on? Kanon.  Completely unrelated bathroom epiphany: On the subject of the tenth twilight of the Epitaph, this translation use the word Capital and had a big to-do about the Kyou in Tokyo and Kyoto being the same as the one in Ongoukyou, and then someone looked it up and found that Kyou is also the word for Ten Quadrillion. So what about the other translation that talks about "The power of the gold"? Well, the atomic number for gold is 79. 7+9=16. 10^16=Ten Quadrillion. And of course one tenth of that is Quadrillion hello Dr. Lou etc.
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Apr 21, 2017 18:27
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E: well you'll see
Rody One Half fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 18:35
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tiistai posted:If that's your interpretation, I have no legit counter. Let me just say that that's not all that Ronove said about Lambda's game. Specifically, Lambda can't do things that Beatrice's game wouldn't allow, so the game is definitely solvable; if it weren't, Lambda also wouldn't have told Battler that she expected him to become even more interesting. What's interesting about someone failing at a game they can't win?
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Apr 21, 2017 18:37
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thetruegentleman posted:Specifically, Lambda can't do things that Beatrice's game wouldn't allow, so the game is definitely solvable; if it weren't, Lambda also wouldn't have told Battler that she expected him to become even more interesting. What's interesting about someone failing at a game they can't win? I think Lambda and Bern are exactly the sort of people who would enjoy watching someone try when they are guaranteed to fail.
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Apr 21, 2017 18:59
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I'm willing to say that isn't the case, from a meta-perspective. Regardless of the attitudes of the non-existent witches, I believe that Ryukishi07 would want to give us a solvable mystery. He seems to be trying to keep it balanced enough that fans of both fantasy and mystery genres can participate.
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Apr 21, 2017 19:02
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idonotlikepeas posted:I'm willing to say that isn't the case, from a meta-perspective. Regardless of the attitudes of the non-existent witches, I believe that Ryukishi07 would want to give us a solvable mystery. He seems to be trying to keep it balanced enough that fans of both fantasy and mystery genres can participate. Honestly, I'm probably going to keep taking swings at it even though I feel there's a decent chance that it's non-solvable. Regardless of its state of solvability, there's still likely clues that can be used on the other four episodes. For example, just off the top of my head, we've gotten a major reference to Battler's sin being a broken promise that he's forgotten.
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Apr 21, 2017 20:10
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 And here we are, Beatrice's death. Yeah, yeah, I know that's technically another scene, but this is the one that always stuck with me. I've been waiting a while for this scene. Could we get a video of it, by any chance? I played the games when they were first translated, long before the PS3 version was a thing, so hearing it voiced would be neat. Besides, it doesn't have quite the same impact in screenshot form. Fates End fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 21:41
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I'll video it if someone seconds the request. e: As an aside, you may notice that the backlog length has cut in half from where I had it 2 weeks ago. My life has been fraught with unpleasant medical adventures and it's been very draining. I'm gonna keep chugging daily updates until EP5 is over, but I'd expect a pretty substantial gap before EP6 starts.
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Apr 22, 2017 01:54
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ProfessorProf posted:I'll video it if someone seconds the request. I definitely second the request, this is one of those scenes that makes you thank the anime for their voice casting. On the other hand very sorry to hear about your health and hope things get better for you.
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Apr 22, 2017 02:03
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To clarify, which part of this update do you want a video of? The whole thing?
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Apr 22, 2017 02:05
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ProfessorProf posted:To clarify, which part of this update do you want a video of? The whole thing? Can't speak for Fates End, but I think just the first part containing Beatrice's farewell is good.
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Apr 22, 2017 02:36
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oblongmeow posted:Can't speak for Fates End, but I think just the first part containing Beatrice's farewell is good. Yeah, that was pretty much what I was going for.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:01
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All right, I'll get it up when I can.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:02
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ProfessorProf posted:I'll video it if someone seconds the request. It's good for me though, cause that gives me more time to do the TIP that goes between episodes 5 and 6.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:23
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ProfessorProf posted:I'll video it if someone seconds the request. I'm going through medical stuff myself, for the first time in my life, and it's been eye opening how fragile your health can be.
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Apr 22, 2017 04:50
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 BGM: One ...Of course, Beato was nowhere to be found. It was just me... isolated and alone. That's alright. Even so, I won't stop thinking. Okay then. What were Knox's Commandments again...? I'm sure Dlanor explained most of them when slamming me with them. Of course, even I recall them vaguely. What was... the first one, again...?  When I muttered about what the first one was... As if answering my question, Dlanor's subordinate appeared. Without bothering with an unnecessary 'hello', she told me nothing more or less than what I wanted to know.  "...Yeah, that's it. The 1st. The culprit has to be one of the people mentioned in the early part of the story."In other words, does that mean the culprit must have appeared already... by the first game...? True, that is the most basic of basics in the mystery genre. A given. ...A given...? Have I really... kept that as a basic assumption...? With each new game, the number of people in this tale keeps increasing. That violates the closed circle rule. By that point, everything gets screwed up. Did I give up on the inside, thinking that the true culprit or mastermind must not have shown up yet and that reasoning was therefore useless...? If I read this tale as a fantasy, new characters keep showing up to the point where even having demon kings or gods or creators appear wouldn't be strange at all. Even if the true mastermind first appears in one of the last Episodes, I'd have to accept it. However, if I read it as a mystery and stick with that conviction... Then there's no need to worry at all about anyone who shows up later. Because Knox's 1st clearly states that it's impossible for the culprit to be anyone who appears later on in the story.  However, this is one way of thinking. This time... I'll forget about the Devil's Proof completely... and try to borrow the power of the Decalogue in my thinking. After all, I've already said myself that I won't be able to reach the truth without a multi-angled outlook.  ...Even the first of Knox's commandments... denies the existence of an unknown person known as the witch from the very start. If I had followed that in the truest sense... I might not have suffered so miserably in the 2nd game.  "...Knox's 2nd?" "Allow me to speak. Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique."Dlanor's other subordinate appeared without a sound... and gave me an answer to my question. That's right. A detective can't go around using magic.  "So, if this is a fair battle... does that mean that, like the detective, the culprit also isn't allowed to use magic...?" "Allow me to speak. Know that the interpretation is up to you." "Yeah, that. Sure. I'll interpret it my way."If this game is a battle between me and Beato... Then because this tale is solvable, no elements will appear which make it impossible to solve. In other words, things like magic mustn't appear. When they do appear, I shouldn't suspect that the mystery element is breaking down, but I should instead question why it was shown and suspect the witnesses and observers.  BGM: F Style Depictions of magic, which couldn't exist in a mystery. By showing me that, she forced me to think that this tale wasn't a mystery, and therefore, that reasoning was impossible... and I surrendered... However, if I had believed unshakably that it was a mystery... It would have been completely obvious to doubt the witnesses who claimed to have seen it. Also, at the end of the 1st game, it was revealed that this tale was passed on to people in the future by that message bottle. Someone had written about this crime... this tale. In other words, this tale is all part of a world which includes the personal opinions of an observer, namely, the person who wrote that message in a bottle. In other words, the observer isn't God. It's a human. Therefore, there's no guarantee that this description is truly impartial. By the end of the 1st game, it had already been made clear that we've broken the constant premise of the mystery genre: that the story itself must be seen through the eyes of God. For that reason, it's possible to doubt even the observer, as well as the witnesses. If I could've doubted this much, then no matter how many seemingly unsolvable displays of magic appeared, I wouldn't have had to blindly accept them and give up...  ...If I get obsessed with this, all of my reasoning will end here. However, I had to believe. I had to believe... that Beato was trying to fight me through this tale. Because it's a fight, that means I've been given a chance of winning. By giving me that... doesn't that mean... that reasoning is possible? ...This part... is tough. Unless I believe that the cruel witch took on the risk of losing to try and have a fair fight with me, I can't get past this part. Just like Virgilia said, it's just like love. If I can't believe that Beato is fighting me head on with everything she's got, I won't be able to reason any further than this. ...Sure, I'll acknowledge it. Unless we acknowledge that we 'love each other', we won't be able to get any further. When Virgilia ran out of patience with the two of us, shy and incapable as we were of acknowledging that out loud, she gave me that red truth instead.  ...What the hell. It's like 'Satou-san in class A says he likes you~'. Like hearing a love confession via a friend... ...I really am... pitiful. Reasoning... is love. If we don't love each other, the reasoning won't start. In that case, how can we say that we love each other? 'If you think you can solve it, just you try.' 'You're incompetent, like hell you can solve it.' Yeah, according to George-aniki, you call that sort of thing 'tsundora'. Heheh, that brutal witch is finally starting to look a bit cute. ...If I meet her again, I wanna try saying 'You're such a tsundora'. If I meet her again, somewhere...   "Allow me to speak. Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented." "Allow me to speak. Knox's 6th. It is forbidden for accident or intuition to be employed as a detective technique."It must not be solved with clues that aren't presented. And, it must not be solved by relying on accident. If this tale is made in a way that it can be solved... We can read this the opposite way. In other words, clues must be prepared so that the case can be solved. And, it has to be made in a way that it can be solved without relying on an accident. If I can believe that Beato is challenging me to a fair game where reasoning is possible... I can be sure of that. In other words, Beato has already left me clues, hints, and messages in this tale. ...It isn't from the Decalogue, but Erika or someone said this: There are three riddles to be exposed in a mystery.  All of this means that clues related to these three riddles are already present inside this tale. No, strictly speaking, it's like this: Because she wanted me to solve these three riddles, Beato scattered hints about. Though whether I'm capable of catching those or not is another matter... Even if you think a riddle you propose is easy... it might be difficult for the person trying to solve it. In that case, it's only natural that there will be a difference in how difficult it is for either person. Therefore. As Beato goes through each successive game, she watches me closely... and tweaks the game as needed to get a good arrangement.  If I surrendered and lost the will to fight, the game would no longer remain on an even footing. Therefore, in order to make me regain my will to fight, from the 3rd game onwards, she set things up in a way that made it easier for me, giving me tips on how to fight and a few hints. Virgilia and Ronove obviously appeared so that they could help me. Also, though we still had the usual crazy magic shows, she gave me the metaphor of the Braun tube trial, as well as tips on how to fight back. I finally understood how to fight, and most likely, at the end of the 4th game... Beato managed to have the all-out showdown with me that she had probably wanted. ...Then, Beato acknowledged that my abilities had become full-fledged, and entrusted me with her heart... entrusted me with explaining this tale, didn't she... In that case, it was really dumb of me to boycott most of the 5th game just because I was so disgusted with those two witches...  BGM: None All I need is to search for the truth in Beato's game. On the contrary, I should probably... thank those two witches just a little for continuing the game in Beato's place, now that she's gone and left everything to me. Of course, I doubt those evil witches were trying to do anything of the sort... Culprit. Crime. Motive. The answers to those three ultimate riddles... the hints... must be scattered throughout the previously shown tales. It's probably a very faint light, like trying to find beads that have fallen onto a sandy beach. They're definitely there. However, they're so faint that unless I believe strongly, there's no way I'll be able to find them. "Please. Allow me to speak." "...What is it...?"  Video: And Then I KnewBGM: Dir  "...Right now... through this tale..." "Know that for reasoning to be possible, a trusting relationship is required." "...Yeah, I know. In fact, ..maybe I finally noticed just now."It's something that has been repeated over and over again throughout the tale... persistently so.  Slowly, the tea room dissolved into darkness... Then, as though I was slowly sinking into a pitch black sea, I passed through the crevice of the long journey I'd taken with Beato... and kept on falling and falling... It was a bizarre experience... like crossing over the boundary of sleep while still conscious. The several tales before became faint bubbles... no, were they small shining Fragments? And were scattered like stars amidst a pitch black sky. I kept sinking on and on... into that sea...   The tales up until now... one after another... after another... Vergilius guided Dante to Mount Purgatory, and brought him below the feet of the eternal lady who waited at the top, Beatrice. Therefore, the innermost depths lay not at the bottom, but at the peak of Mount Purgatory. The eternal lady... had been waiting there for Dante... the whole time...  BGM: Promise ...To the depths, no... to the peak... of Mount Purgatory... ...Idiot... You... really are... an idiot...  He woke from the sleep of death, and bit by bit... his sense of pain came back to him... On Battler's face, which still looked up at the heavens as he hung there pierced by the longsword, a suffering and alive expression gradually returned...  Battler... noticed. The whole time, Beato had been snuggling up against him... sleeping. And when he held her, he knew... that it was not Beato... but her crumbling... remains.  So, when Battler just tried to hold that form as fragile as ash, just like a sand castle made on a beach... which has been washed away by a small wave... it fell apart and lost its form... At Battler's feet... lay nothing but the ragged remnants of Beato's dress... and a pile of ash. No, on top of that pile of ash... he could see something sparkling gold. It was... the husk... of a single gold butterfly... which had been torn to bits... And so, Battler... knew... I've... definitely reached the truth... However, I wasn't able to do it... while Beato still remained in this world...  I've finally... reached the truth of this crazy riddle you've created... Just... like you wanted...! I didn't lose heart... and I finally... made it there in the end... So why... did you lose heart... without waiting for me...? You believed so strongly, didn't you...? That I'd... definitely reach the truth... So, why...? Why... couldn't you believe with me... and wait...? You aren't the one who's been forcing an endless torture on someone else. It's me...! I've been the one putting you through a cruel torture...! You resisted until the very end and kept on protesting to me... And even though... I've now finally... reached that truth... To think that you... couldn't wait any longer... and that it's all too late...  It's my... fault... I forced her to endure this torture. In fact, she's been doing a wonderful job sticking through it for so long... Over and over and over again, you kept on protesting to me, and because I was so incompetent... it was as though I couldn't understand the truth.  His scream of pain... filled the sad cathedral... The sad witch who wasn't able to let Battler know of the truth. The sad man who wasn't able to understand the witch's truth. Battler's howl of anger and sadness rang out for that pair... The clock hung in the cathedral showed that it was 24:00 on October 5th, 1986. Time was up... for everything... You're kidding me... don't set something like a time limit on this difficult riddle you're so proud of...  You prayed for and bet on the power of a miracle... one so unlikely that it was totally impossible, less likely than finding a bead you've dropped on a sandy beach... And that means I've now truly arrived at that miracle. However, your time... didn't last long enough... If I had reached this point even a little sooner... If I could have seen the truth...!! Even if it had been right before time was up, I might... have been able to save you...!! But right now, I've been run through pathetically. I can't... even hold what remains of you...! As I attempted to pull the longsword out, I tried stretching out my arms and kicking my feet, struggling to at least touch her remains... but nothing worked.  "...Shiiiiiit... dammiiiiiiiiiittt...!!!"...At that time, I noticed a golden glint on the palm of my hand.  That small Fragment of gold... was the only piece of Beato... that I was permitted to touch... I cried with all my strength, gripped that Fragment... and pressed it against my head, apologizing. Why couldn't I reach the truth earlier...? Then I pressed it to my chest, promising that even now, I would never again lose... the truth... When I pressed my hand against my chest, the sword piercing my chest cut my wrist, and blood dribbled out. That blood spread throughout my fist... and it must have... soaked that gold Fragment with my red blood. It must have been... the only way of telling her... that I'd found the truth she had wanted me to know about... I clutched the wing of the gold butterfly... with my freshly bleeding hand... and pressed it against the red sword which pierced me... At this point, Ushiromiya Battler... knows. And he understands. He's found... this tale's... everything... At that time, it seemed as though... a faint golden light leaked out of the gaps in his clenched fist. The two witches had their backs turned, and Erika was laughing at Battler's corpse.  BGM: Justice At that time, Battler's chest... no, the red longsword that pierced Battler... began to sparkle gold from deep within his chest...   "...What's going on...?" "B, Battler is... what... is this...?!" "...ah." Battler coughed up blood and groaned. His consciousness... came back. His will to live, his will to fight... came back... The red longsword which pierced Battler... could no longer be described as such. By now, it had become a golden longsword. Then... slowly... slowly... it pulled itself out of Battler's chest... It finally pulled itself out of Battler and started dancing through the air... then stood up in front of Battler's eyes as though it knew who its master was. Battler, crawling on the floor and moaning, grabbed the golden longsword... and though it looked painful, he slowly... rose to his feet once again.   "Th, that glow... i, it couldn't be..."Lambda stared wide-eyed at that bright golden glow in awe... When she noticed that Battler's resurrection wasn't part of a script Lambda had thought up, Bern also frowned slightly...  "...Sorry. Retrials will not be permitted. Chiester Sisters, eliminate this resurrection illusion..." "Understood. 45, 410, firing permission granted."  "...Eeek." "...999, you say... impossible...!"The Chiester Sisters hesitated, unable to carry out Bernkastel's orders...  "Lambda. What kind of farce is this? The Illusion of the Witch has been completely destroyed, and the trial ended with our victory." "...Sorry, Bern. You'll have to stick around a bit longer." "Isn't that right, Ushiromiya Battler...?"  "Request for a retrial accepted. The assembly of witches retracts the adjournment of the Court of Illusions!!" "O, objection. The trial has already been concluded and the results have even been announced...!" "Objection overruled...!! All verdicts are overshadowed by new truths!!" "Objection!! Not only has Battler been banished as a player, he also doesn't hold the rank of witch...! He isn't qualified to call for an appeal...!"  "...Wh, what did you say...? B, Battler got... the rank of a witch...?!"The rank of a witch, which she had desired for so long, had been granted to Battler so quickly. And on top of that, this wasn't anything temporary. This was an official, proper authorization by Lambdadelta. Erika couldn't accept it, and her face turned bright red...  "...Hmph, hehehehehhahaahahahahahahaaah!! Looks like that kid's game really will keep us entertained until the very end...! Sure, I'll play along...!" "O, of course, my master...!! There's no need to worry at all!" "Anyway, Chiester Sisters, my master ordered you to fire, right?! How long is it gonna take you to carry that order out?!" "E, error code 999! A, an access code is required to target the territory lord...!" "...Nyeh. I told you he'd do it nyeh." "Territory lord...?! Who is?! Who controls this Fragment?! I do...!!" "...Territory lord... You don't mean... Battler is...?" "Yes. Ushiromiya Battler has been authorized as the official territory lord of this Fragment...!"  "..." "That means Battler's understood everything about this world, this tale, this game." "...In other words, he's reached the position of the game's master. *giggle*, I'll bet you don't want to believe it, right, Bern?!" "...Heh, *giggle*giggle*giggle*giggle*!!" "Yeah, I don't want to believe it...!! Okay, I'll test Battler to see whether he really understands everything...!! Erika!" "Too bad, Erika. Just when you were finally appointed as the territory lord of this Fragment, you've been deprived of that title." "The new territory lord of this Fragment is Ushiromiya Battler. *giggle*, is it awful? Hey, hey, don't you feel just awful?! How's it feel to be deprived of that title just when you'd finally gotten it?! How's it feel?!" "Ahh... waaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhggh!!"   Battler spoke with the red truth allowed him by his status as a sorcerer. 
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Apr 22, 2017 12:41
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Well, that happened. How amusing. We've already constructed numerous scenarios that don't violate the red in which Natsuhi is not the culprit. I do wonder if Battler is going to use one of those, or another that we haven't yet considered. We know the whydunnit is solvable, and I will continue to insist that the motive is Shannon's. Attempting to remind Battler of his broken promise (in English) six years ago. From there, I will stake my bets on the culprit being Shannon/Sayo (or possibly Kanon, which I'll consider again after I do a check through the original LP). Whoever it is, we know they're aided by Nanjo and likely Kumasawa. So then the big question is how, which I will need to actually look through again to consider.
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Apr 22, 2017 13:17
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Cyouni posted:We know the whydunnit is solvable, and I will continue to insist that the motive is Shannon's. Attempting to remind Battler of his broken promise (in English) six years ago. I think all three of these points are probably right. But also, they only get at a shallow why. It doesn't answer the deeper more fundamental question of: "Why was a promise from a 12 year old to a 10 year old so important?" I can come up with a few theories, but they're all pretty dark, and I can't think of any explicit evidence in support of them, so by Knox's 8th, they're probably wrong. But I don't think just "because promise" gets us close enough. I also think it has to be, at least, Shannon and Kanon. They're close enough that I don't think one would act without the other, and I definitely don't see them being willing to kill one another. E: Also, somewhat upset that Battler's sprite isn't now holding a longsword at all times. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 22, 2017 13:30
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What? ... What!? Not only is he alive again, but he's a goddamn- WHAT?!?  Well, at least this loving Witch bullshit won't effect him anymore, since he now apparently has all the cheat codes to La-La Land, but... he did start out this journey on a quest to disprove magic, right? I didn't just imagine that or wake up in some alternate dimension, yes? He must stop magic, and now he is magic, and  I might still be asleep now, and I;ve got a dress rehearsal to go to, so maybe after that and a walk, I will come back and be in the realm of the sensible. So adieu.
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Apr 22, 2017 14:04
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resurgam40 posted:Well, at least this loving Witch bullshit won't effect him anymore, since he now apparently has all the cheat codes to La-La Land, but... he did start out this journey on a quest to disprove magic, right? I didn't just imagine that or wake up in some alternate dimension, yes? He must stop magic, and now he is magic, and I think it was tiistai who pointed this out to me when I made a pretty similar point earlier. He's not interested in disproving witches per se, he just wants to disprove their involvement in the murders. And considering that it looks like he's now solved the mystery, if he needs to be magic to prove what happened, good for him, I guess?
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Apr 22, 2017 14:19
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I cried a little.
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Apr 22, 2017 14:42
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CottonWolf posted:I think all three of these points are probably right. But also, they only get at a shallow why. It doesn't answer the deeper more fundamental question of: "Why was a promise from a 12 year old to a 10 year old so important?" To some degree, I do agree. Even if I am correct and can provide proof to substantiate my argument, we're missing the deeper why, and that's not something we can answer except by being Battler or getting more information. I definitely think that both Kanon and Shannon are involved, but the real question is which one's the one guiding it. Even if Shannon's motive was the guiding factor, I feel there's a non-zero chance that Kanon is the one being the primary executor. CottonWolf posted:I think it was tiistai who pointed this out to me when I made a pretty similar point earlier. He's not interested in disproving witches per se, he just wants to disprove their involvement in the murders. And considering that it looks like he's now solved the mystery, if he needs to be magic to prove what happened, good for him, I guess? Well, he started out wanting to deny witches, but that came primarily because their involvement in his life was 100% murder-related. Once he got more used to it, he started wanting to distinguish the two. The Beatrice tea scenes, for example.
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Apr 22, 2017 14:43
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Isn't Dlanor also a witch that goes around destroying any other evidence of magic? Of course, there's another way to look at this. Battler has realized the unreality of everything around him; notice that he mentions the bottle story specifically, which is something that happens outside of the context of any specific game, in the "real world". Knowing that it's all a story gives him power over it, because he can use the rules of storytelling, in this case Knox's rules (as well as some others, presumably) to take it apart. He's been told the story many times, with many variations, and by examining those variations he should be able to determine some things about the true nature of the story, and the nature of the events that happened in the real world, as we've been trying to do. What's most interesting to me here is that everything he says about Beatrice in the early part of the entry actually applies to the story's real author, Ryukishi07. Didn't I just say a few posts ago that I trusted he wouldn't give us an unsolvable mystery? If I say that, I'm counting on the love of the author for his audience. In fact, all along some of us have said things like "that doesn't make sense because it isn't how mysteries work" and "X can't be right because it isn't dramatically appropriate, it must be Y instead". That's leaning on Knox's rules, or something like them, even if not by name, because we already know the author loves his audience and wants us to be able to find what we're looking for in the story, so he must be following some rules that will let us find it. Of course, that brings up something else: one has to assume he loves his fantasy fans, too. And if that's the case, it means he can't ever deliver the final blow to fantasy inside the confines of the story. If that's true, we'll have to do the last bit of reasoning ourselves, even if he gives us all the pieces. Which is fine by me; that just gives us mystery fans another chance to show off.
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Apr 22, 2017 14:50
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idonotlikepeas posted:Here's another way you can be a bad detective: become a witch. Oh how I laughed
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Apr 22, 2017 15:39
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this is the best poo poo
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Apr 22, 2017 16:19
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I'm on the edge of my seat, hoping that at least some of my reasoning is on point and that Battler is gonna drop that knowledge with a vengeance. More importantly, why doesn't he get a cool costume change a la EVA? A cute dress? At least a staff or something, geez.Cyouni posted:I definitely think that both Kanon and Shannon are involved, but the real question is which one's the one guiding it. Even if Shannon's motive was the guiding factor, I feel there's a non-zero chance that Kanon is the one being the primary executor. Oh my goddddddd y'all are killing me Edit: aw yissssssssss werk that cape 
witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 22, 2017 16:20
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Tender Child Loins posted:I'm on the edge of my seat, hoping that at least some of my reasoning is on point and that Battler is gonna drop that knowledge with a vengeance. More importantly, why doesn't he get a cool costume change a la EVA? A cute dress? At least a staff or something, geez. From the manga version of this scene: 
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Apr 22, 2017 16:23
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