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Mierenneuker posted:They should have changed his name to Killian. Oh god. It's gone full circle
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Apr 22, 2017 18:34
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 Eat your hamburgers, Apollo.
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Apr 22, 2017 18:41
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At one point the American live action remake of Akira was going to change Tetsuo's name to Travis. Starring Chris Evan and Joseph Gordon-Levitt! Panfilo posted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jafd97yJFOI Snowglobe of Doom fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 22, 2017 19:00
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:At one point the American live action remake of Akira was going to change Tetsuo's name to Travis. Starring Chris Evan and Joseph Gordon-Levitt! Neo-New York is about to E X P L O D E
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Apr 22, 2017 21:35
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Donnerberg posted:The white washing in Netflix' upcoming adaption of Death Note bothers me more. They changed it to take place in America with all white kids, but they're still calling the main character "Kira". He was Kira in the anime because that's Killer pronounced with an accent. There's some sort of uncanny valley with adapting.
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Apr 22, 2017 21:38
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Donnerberg posted:The white washing in Netflix' upcoming adaption of Death Note bothers me more. They changed it to take place in America with all white kids, but they're still calling the main character "Kira". He was Kira in the anime because that's Killer pronounced with an accent. That's actually not quite true. L is played by a black actor named Keith Stanfield. He has basically one of the most central roles in Death Note. Leaving it as Kira isn't exactly whitewashing, either. It's just silly. They could have totally cast an Asian-American actor as the evil, unrepentant murderous psychopath, though, I agree. Also, are The Departed and The Ring also cases of whitewashing now? I just need to know where we draw the line, guys.
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Apr 22, 2017 21:56
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It depends how close to the source material they're trying to be. Everything about the GITS movie implied it would be the anime as a live action movie. So, it stands out when they change things. The Death Note trailer makes me think it'll do the same thing as GITS where it's kind of a best of compilation of the source material instead of a new story, but it remains to be seen. The Ring and The Departed are more on level with other 'remakes' like Let Me In and The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo. They were explicitly made for an American audience, or people in general who won't go out of their way to watch non-English speaking movies. There's an unspoken understanding that it's all going to be Americanized. I didn't see the Dragon Tattoo, but I think maybe it was still set in Sweden. That's kind of cool of that was the case. I like that they try to keep what made the movies unique even with English speaking actors. In comparison with the other movie I mentioned, a big part of Låt den rätte komma in was how cold and isolated it felt. I think that was lost in Let Me In. Its setting felt more vibrant and less depressive. Attack on Princess fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 22, 2017 22:31
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The Departed and The Ring are both whitewashing. It has nothing to do with how close they are trying to be to the source material. This is a misconception which has been promulgated by fan/meme culture, which has little-to-nothing to do with socioeconomic justice and ideological critique. Whitewashing is just a symptom of white supremacy. It describes any and all scenarios in which there is an adaptation of a work originating from a culture outside white Western hegemony. But it also includes any scenario in which there could be reasonable motivation for casting P.O.C./non-white American performers, but it doesn't happen. Ex: The Forest.
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Apr 23, 2017 00:57
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Okay, I didn't think that far. Thanks for explaining.
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Apr 23, 2017 00:59
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K. Waste posted:The Departed and The Ring are both whitewashing. It has nothing to do with how close they are trying to be to the source material. This is a misconception which has been promulgated by fan/meme culture, which has little-to-nothing to do with socioeconomic justice and ideological critique. As far as I'm concerned, films like 21 or Airbender or GITS are just the extreme moments. I mentioned before that nominally "original" works can also be whitewashing. Or shows even "faithfully" casting Iron Fist with a white actor without any course correction is whitewashing. But try explaining that to internet people obsessed with "canon".
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Apr 23, 2017 01:39
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I thought whitewashing was getting white actors to play characters of other ethnicities when they should have cast actors of those ethnicities instead. If a movie is totally rewritten, like The Departed, you might see it as bad but calling it whitewashing is incorrect I think. Or, it doesn't mean that so much any more.
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Apr 23, 2017 01:43
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K. Waste posted:The Departed and The Ring are both whitewashing. It has nothing to do with how close they are trying to be to the source material. This is a misconception which has been promulgated by fan/meme culture, which has little-to-nothing to do with socioeconomic justice and ideological critique. By your dumb definition "Ran" is Nippon-washing.
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Apr 23, 2017 02:15
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starkebn posted:I thought whitewashing was getting white actors to play characters of other ethnicities when they should have cast actors of those ethnicities instead. Actors play different ethnicities and cultural groups all the time. It is a perfunctory aspect of performance. There was not nor has there ever been a strict construction over who can play what roles. 'Asian roles'/'ethnic roles,' on the other hand, are a particular concept which originates from within settler colonial/imperial cultures in which 'whiteness' is taken for granted as a superior, natural, and neutral space. This is why it's important to clarify that whitewashing is only a symptom of white supremacy. GitS'17 is just a movie - its evidence of whitewashing within the settler colonial culture of the U.S. is only a more overt example of what necessarily occurs in virtually every North American production. Echo Chamber posted:This is why I reject the "beyond a reasonable doubt" demands of proof that a movie is whitewashing. Well, I mean, "canon" isn't the problem. The problem is that folks on both sides confuse an accusation of whitewashing with being a unilateral dismissal of a film's quality, which is a completely different issue. There are innumerable problematic elements endemic to every film ever made, intersecting in complicated ways that demand rigorous interpretation and clarity of one's own ideological lens. The Last Airbender and Dragonball: Evolution are both whitewashed. But they are also both helmed by Asian-American filmmakers, and feature prominent P.O.C. performances in roles that - in the dubbed source material - 'traditionally' went to white North Americans. Keanu Reeves is both white and multiracial. Paolomania posted:By your dumb definition "Ran" is Nippon-washing. White expats do very well abroad, actually. The issue is socioeconomic justice, not superficial content.
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Apr 23, 2017 02:30
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K. Waste posted:Whitewashing is just a symptom of white supremacy. This is the Reich Hitler spoke of!
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Apr 23, 2017 02:51
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starkebn posted:I thought whitewashing was getting white actors to play characters of other ethnicities when they should have cast actors of those ethnicities instead. This is false, because canon is a fake idea. If Superman is played by a black actor in a film, then Superman is black. In that film. Nerds have difficulty with this, and will insist that Superman is (canonically) white. They will then reject the black Superman film as corrupted by political correctness and/or make contortions to say that the film takes place in an 'alternate universe.' All this is done to campaign for the corporations to preserve the character's white essence. (Note: Superman is an alien passing as white.) The same procedure is at work with Ghost Shell 2017, with the only difference being that pseudoprogressive nerds are campaigning for the corporations to preserve the character's Japanese essence. (Note: 1995 Major is an alien robot passing as 'Asian', not unlike Spock in that time-travel episode). A third variation is when nerds will campaign for the corporations to change the canon and make Spiderman canonically black or whatever. All these three approaches are an escape from the responsibility of actually reading a given film, in its socioeconomic context. Your point about 'total rewriting' is akin to those 'alternate universe' solutions. An 'alternate nation' solution.
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Apr 23, 2017 04:59
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I think I'm getting it confused with yellow face, black face, Red face etc.
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Apr 23, 2017 05:23
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Literally any action taken at any time for any reason that is not the action of making an ideological reading a movie that concludes that its socioeconomic goal is an endorsement of Marxism is a crime.
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Apr 23, 2017 06:03
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Well, part of the problem is that there isn't any canonical definition of whitewashing, and people seem to be using the same word differently.
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Apr 23, 2017 07:00
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Neo Rasa posted:Literally any action taken at any time for any reason that is not the action of making an ideological reading a movie that concludes that its socioeconomic goal is an endorsement of Marxism is a crime. Weird thoughts. Steve Yun posted:Well, part of the problem is that there isn't any canonical definition of whitewashing, and people seem to be using the same word differently. Not "differently". Incorrectly.
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Apr 23, 2017 07:57
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starkebn posted:I think I'm getting it confused with yellow face, black face, Red face etc. They overlap, certainly. Manifest Destiny literally and figuratively pioneered whitewashing.
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Apr 23, 2017 08:55
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Not "differently". Incorrectly. If enough people define a word incorrectly, it is no longer incorrectly defined.
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Apr 23, 2017 08:56
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Paolomania posted:By your dumb definition "Ran" is Nippon-washing. I agree with this sentiment. This definition is taking it a bit far. Surely, adapting great stories to a different cultural background isn't inherently whitewashing. So far, whitewashing is: 1. Painting a white person to make them look oriental 2. Casting a white actor in a role that should likely be played by an ethnic person 3. Changing the setting of a story and the names of its cast (and as a result conveniently having to cast Western actors) 4. Adapting a non-Western story Here's a weird case to ponder: Hermann Hesse's Siddhartha adapts Buddhism by way of Laozi, and takes place entirely in India. In 1972, there was an adaptation by Conrad Rooks that featured an entirely Indian cast. Which part of this is whitewashing and why?
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Apr 23, 2017 10:09
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Would having an Asian actress have made this film better No
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Apr 23, 2017 10:47
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I can't wait for the future of the superman movie with a black actor as superman. Tell you the truth, Hollywood has already stolen comic book characters and made them black for no reason. Kingpin, one of the most feared and powerful crime lords in the Marvel Universe, played by Michael Clarke Duncan.  Guess they didn't think a white guy playing Kingpin would have been believable.  Why did no one cry for you Kingpin? Tenzarin fucked around with this message at 11:27 on Apr 23, 2017 |
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Apr 23, 2017 11:01
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Tenzarin posted:I can't wait for the future of the superman movie with a black actor as superman. Butterbean really got robbed of the part he was born to play (being a heavy-set bald white man who can throw a punch, truly a rare sight). Daredevil is indeed a very problematic movie. Bullseye ain't Irish! Elektra is supposed to be Greek! And her father in the movie is played by an Indian man?! It's downright ridiculous. Mierenneuker fucked around with this message at 12:29 on Apr 23, 2017 |
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Apr 23, 2017 12:23
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Echo Chamber posted:shows even "faithfully" casting Iron Fist with a white actor without any course correction is whitewashing
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Apr 23, 2017 15:25
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Macarius Wrench posted:Would having an Asian actress have made this film better Well the story would have to be completely different then so possibly?
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Apr 23, 2017 15:24
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Mithaldu posted:Iron Fist is an irredeemably dumbass show, but how is it whitewashing? Seriously, lets not lump all things that involve cultural exchange at some textual, subtextual or meta level under one trendy label. "The Karate Kid" would mean something entirely different if Daniel-san had to be Japanese because Karate is intellectual property of Okinawa for all time.
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Apr 23, 2017 15:48
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Macarius Wrench posted:Would having an Asian actress have made this film better Hmmm let's find out /watches 1995 film Yeah it's better  Mithaldu posted:Iron Fist is an irredeemably dumbass show, but how is it whitewashing? The Netflix show and the original comics both tie in to the 'White saviour' theme where all these foreign dudes need a white dude to come along and show them how to really master their cultural practices. There's a long history of that kind of thing in literature and there's a poo poo ton of American films where a white martial arts guy uses his superior skills to beat the evil Asian martial arts guys. They even used to brag about the cultural appropriation on the movie posters. 
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Apr 23, 2017 15:56
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:At one point the American live action remake of Akira was going to change Tetsuo's name to Travis. Starring Chris Evan and Joseph Gordon-Levitt! I...I wanted to see this
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Apr 23, 2017 15:58
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:'White saviour' But he claimed Iron Fist is white-washing. White-washing is casting someone who is white into a role that could be expected to not be. The very core of Iron Fist is "yo the protag is an absolutely irredeemably american hipster trust fund fucknut who stumbles his way into some poo poo he can't handle and fucks up literally everything by having zero understanding of anything, least of all the culture". I mean, you could cast an asian into that role and it wouldn't make the show any *more* stupid than it already is, but where do you get "it was expected to be an asian" from? Not just ~reasonably~, but like: At all.
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Apr 23, 2017 16:01
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I watched the poo poo out of this trilogy back when blockbuster existed. drat they made 5 movies total!
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Apr 23, 2017 16:40
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And More posted:I agree with this sentiment. This definition is taking it a bit far. Surely, adapting great stories to a different cultural background isn't inherently whitewashing. First off, pay close attention to Paolo's obvious attempt at misdirection: Paolomania posted:By your dumb definition "Ran" is Nippon-washing. Because I have offered a very straightforward definition of whitewashing as a symptom of white supremacy, it is necessary to convolute the issue with a typically reactionary, 'colorblind' counter-argument: 'Well, Japan appropriates Western culture, too!' That Ran is actually a Japanese-French co-production - and that Kurosawa was never 'intentionally' adapting King Lear, but was instead subverting Japanese feudal mythology - escapes him, because he doesn't actually care about the example he's using, or the argument he's making. He also leaves out that Japan is an entirely separate nation from the U.S. (the primary subject of ideological critique as far as North American film productions), with its own particular intersections with imperialism and socioeconomic injustice. Paolo's post is completely impertinent to the subject at hand, which is whether or not North American film productions unilaterally exclude people-of-color from virtually all prominent film roles (which is true), and whether or not this is fundamentally rooted in pervasive, exclusionary ideology informed by centuries of colonial history (which is true). Paolo's post is typical white supremacism masked as colorblind globalism/egalitarianism: Beginning with the presumption that the settler colonial space occupied by white Westerners in the U.S. is natural and inherently neutral, he equates it with the perfunctory ethno-national norms of another country with not nearly the same geopolitical foundation. This further illustrates that he either hasn't actually read my posts, or has very poor reading comprehension. I have been specifically stating, straightforwardly and over-and-over again, that 'casting white people in roles that should go to POC' is superficial content which is symptomatic of white supremacy. I have not written that "The Departed should have starred Asian-American gangsters." I don't give a poo poo, because The Departed is just a movie, and this symbolic victory for diversity would not 'trickle-down' to the oppressed. You can now see where this sort of arguing in bad faith gets us. Now here come all the posts out of the woodwork in which many of the same posters outraged by whitewashing are in solidarity with posters who are insensitive or apathetic to it. We are told to not go 'too far' in moving beyond the superficial content of anecdotal films and their productions to instead attacking dominant ideology and its fundamental, non-exclusively oppressive nature. We have had posters un-ironically call whitewashing 'trendy terminology' that, if used, should only describe a minority of discriminatory social scenarios, as opposed to framing it within the universal struggles of various oppressed groups. "Look, a big black guy was already cast as a gangster! Progress!"
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Apr 23, 2017 16:48
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K. Waste posted:Because I have offered a very straightforward definition of whitewashing what?
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Apr 23, 2017 17:05
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starkebn posted:what? He tries to do SMG's gimmick, but is very bad at it.
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Apr 23, 2017 17:19
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Mithaldu posted:Yeah, uh, white savior is absolutely a thing and some loving bullshit. quote:White-washing is casting someone who is white into a role that could be expected to not be. quote:The very core of Iron Fist is "yo the protag is an absolutely irredeemably american hipster trust fund fucknut who stumbles his way into some poo poo he can't handle and fucks up literally everything by having zero understanding of anything, least of all the culture". quote:I mean, you could cast an asian into that role and it wouldn't make the show any *more* stupid than it already is, but where do you get "it was expected to be an asian" from? Not just ~reasonably~, but like: At all. I'd argue that whitewashing is also symptomatic of people not caring to make their product good. Yes, there are "whitewashed" things that are technically decent or occasionally good. But don't be surprised if something's bad if the people making it are just cashing their checks. Echo Chamber fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Apr 23, 2017 |
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Apr 23, 2017 17:42
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Echo Chamber posted:I'd argue that whitewashing is also symptomatic of people not caring to make their product good. Yes, there are "whitewashed" things that are technically decent or occasionally good. But don't be surprised if something's bad if the people making it are just cashing their checks. We should really, really disengage discussion about whitewashing from discussions about quality. Whitewashing would still be problematic even if the show/movie was amazingly good and popular.
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Apr 23, 2017 17:57
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Echo Chamber posted:Iron Fist came along in the 70s when martial arts and Bruce Lee were kind of big. It's another nominally original work that's just a whitewashed copy, decades before the TV show premiered. Then again, i see this going the same way as calling "computers owned by other people" by the name of "cloud computing", which overrode the original meaning with something entirely different. Be aware though that, until "white savior" has been completely subsumed into "white-washing", you'll have people be confused by what you're talking about, even if you have good intentions and it might serve your interests better to make that distinction. Although, alternatively, if you disagree with me that even the original Iron Fist comic is not "white savior", but "white-washing"; yet consider the two concepts to be separate things, i'd like to hear how your reasoning for that works. And if you truly believe that the concepts are literally the same thing, then we'll just have to disagree.
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Apr 23, 2017 19:48
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Tenzarin posted:I can't wait for the future of the superman movie with a black actor as superman. It already came out, years ago. The only reason it's not called 'Superman' is because of intellectual property rights and presumable nerd outcry. Hancock is narratively identical to half of Batman V Superman. What's unfortunately obvious in this thread is that people are aware that something is wrong in the world, but have little idea of what this something is. So people are beginning with the label of 'whitewashed' and then working backwards to figure out what this label means. Some say it's when Asian actors aren't hired, but Ghost In The Shell 2017 features standout performances by Kaori Mamoi and Takeshi Kitano. Also, everybody seems to be glossing over the fact that actress Rila Fukushima actually was hired and paid to play Motoko. So then, the complaint becomes that these Asian actors aren't getting the best roles. But this is true of, essentially, every blockbuster - most of which cast way fewer Asian actors. Rogue One, for example, was celebrated as progressive because it had two(!) Chinese characters in addition to its white female lead. So this goes on, as we try to figure out what people mean. We pass through 'cultural appropriation' (of a Japanese film about globalization set in China and based on the American film Blade Runner?), and on and on, as people struggle to articulate what the bad thing is. And, gradually, we're working towards what K.Waste and I have already been talking about : actual reading. Actual ideological critique of individual texts.
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Apr 23, 2017 21:00
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I agree with SMG to an extent that there's a general confusion about definition of terms, but I would like to touch on The Departed for a moment - because it's an Irish-centric retelling of Infernal Affairs, and while Irish has fallen under the white umbrella, it's unfair to call it "whitewashing" when it's a specific retelling of a story that was originally told with Chinese actors. A Fistful of Dollars is a remake of the Samurai film Yojimbo, retold in an American Wild West setting, and as mentioned before, Ran is a retelling of Shakespeare's Roman-Celtic King Lear. There's a point to be made about distinguishing genuine cultural exchange and adaptation from simple whitewashing. Ghost in the Shell draws it's criticism from the fact that yes, it's plot is "whitewashing is bad," but it shows this by... whitewashing this traditionally Asian character and casting a white lead in it's role. It says "this is bad" by simply doing the very thing that is bad and not following through on actually doing anything about it. John Leguizamo's Latin History for Morons, a one-man theater show actually commits this same mistake - as John plays himself and shows his son all of these great Latin military heroes throughout history, his daughter calls him out and says John is simply reinforcing a stereotype of Latin machismo by not mentioning any of the great non-military Latin heroes through their people's history. Sure, he lists a handful at the very end, but he doesn't give them the same love or attention as all these great generals, not even bothering to mention Simon Bolivar. Ghost in the Shell (2017) is simply a failed satire that reinforces the same phenomenon that it's trying to decry.
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