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In America? Christianity went hardcore rightwing as a block with the rise of the moral majority, so '76-80 though anti civil rights churches have been a thing since forever and have always held a lot of political sway.
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Apr 23, 2017 03:36
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Shbobdb posted:You are the one who brought up gay and reproductive rights. How should I have taken that? That the Trump administration is going to stomp all over gays and women, because the left couldn't appeal to enough voters, because it holds so many of those voters in contempt.
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Apr 23, 2017 03:35
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Agag posted:Does it matter? Both sides are hostile now, and the right is winning in that climate. The thing is, tempering our hostility to right wing, reactionary churches isn't going to bring them in the fold, it's going to embolden them. The left might as well be asked to carry water for the LDS. quote:because it holds so many of those voters in contempt. Evangelicals were never going to be voting left, ever.
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Apr 23, 2017 03:36
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Agag posted:That the Trump administration is going to stomp all over gays and women, because the left couldn't appeal to enough voters, because it holds so many of those voters in contempt. Hillary is centrist as gently caress and ran an incredibly religious campaign.
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Apr 23, 2017 03:37
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Shbobdb posted:Hillary is centrist as gently caress and ran an incredibly religious campaign. And everybody saw through her fake rear end from day 1. Agnosticnixie posted:The thing is, tempering our hostility to right wing, reactionary churches isn't going to bring them in the fold, it's going to embolden them. The left might as well be asked to carry water for the LDS. I think there is a way to forcefully challenge the religious right within a Christian framework. In an extreme historical case, the writings of Confessing Church members opposing the Nazi regime provide theological examples of this. Civil Rights provides a modern example of a mass political movement based on a fusion of leftist and Christian principles. Certainly taking the existing liberal Democrat platform and slapping "Jesus would like it too" on it isn't fooling anyone.
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Apr 23, 2017 03:44
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Agag posted:That the Trump administration is going to stomp all over gays and women, because the left couldn't appeal to enough voters, because it holds so many of those voters in contempt. Most democrat politicians are openly Christian. Meanwhile Trump was contemptuous of women and minorities and yet he got elected. I do think it's a pretty neat idea that Christians vote against their moral compass and the betterment of their fellow citizens because they personally don't feel respected. It's a very low opinion of religious people. I think they are simply more conservative.
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Apr 23, 2017 03:52
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Bates posted:Most democrat politicians are openly Christian. Meanwhile Trump was contemptuous of women and minorities and yet he got elected. I think in the most recent election you had two candidates that were obvious frauds and made token gestures to Christians. That being equal, Christians defaulted to the GOP, which they consistently do, as we've discussed. I'm saying the left has go after some of those votes in an authentic way. What's the alternative?
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Apr 23, 2017 03:56
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Agag posted:And everybody saw through her fake rear end from day 1. The Confessing Church represented less than a whole 1% of the german protestant churches, who as entities of power were quite fine with nazism so long as Hitler didn't target their members (the only religious opposition to T4 came from catholics). The bulk of the german resistance came from hardline marxists.
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Apr 23, 2017 04:01
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Agnosticnixie posted:The Confessing Church represented less than a whole 1% of the german protestant churches, who as entities of power were quite fine with nazism so long as Hitler didn't target their members (the only religious opposition to T4 came from catholics). The bulk of the german resistance came from hardline marxists. I said they provided a theology. I would include certain German Catholics in that group as well. While this is nuts-and-bolts stuff that doesn't interest most non-christians, there were some major theological heavyweights of the 20th century involved. I would also disagree with your characerization of them cozying up to power, given that many were forced to flee the country and others died in concentration camps. Civil Rights was the example of a successful mass political movement. My point with the two examples being that you need successful organization and appeal, but it has to have an authentic theological grounding.
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Apr 23, 2017 04:07
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Hand wave away Bonhoeffer, the guy everybody in Christianity looks to, right left or otherwise instead of recognizing the opportunity present.
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Apr 23, 2017 04:08
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BrandorKP posted:Hand wave away Bonhoeffer, the guy everybody in Christianity looks to, right left or otherwise instead of recognizing the opportunity present. I'm not handwaving away Bonhoeffer, I'm simply stating the fact that at no point was the COnfessing Churches able to get anywhere near being a mass movement within Germany. Rural protestants were literally the NSDAP's core base.
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Apr 23, 2017 04:13
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Lol. People are unable to see through right wing religious hucksters (or are they just genuine?) But every centrist and liberal candidate (much less leftists) is just pandering. Funny how that works.
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Apr 23, 2017 04:14
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BrandorKP posted:Where does the idea of equality under law come from? The idea of equality under law was an Enlightenment ideal that was borne out of separating religion from the government. Religious laws explicitly state different rules for non believers or people of different birth. It wound up in America because of the Diest influence from the founding fathers. Agag posted:No offense, man, but that is major bullshit. Except it's not. I already laid out the secular reasons that actually caused a turning point for the abolition movement. Northern White Christians were not of mind that Black people were equal and very few cared about them being abused or oppressed. They saw the South's actions as an assault on the secular liberties laid out in the constitution. Some churches helped spread the word about how terrible slavery was, but they were not what changed public opinion. Secular writings like Uncle Tom's Cabin and Frederick Douglas did way more than the efforts of churches.
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Apr 23, 2017 04:25
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RasperFat posted:The idea of equality under law was an Enlightenment ideal that was borne out of separating religion from the government. Religious laws explicitly state different rules for non believers or people of different birth. I'm sure the 19 and 20 year old farmboys marching to war singing abolitionist hymns were really concerned with secular constitutional liberties. lol @ Frederick Douglass and Harriet Beecher Stowe being "secular."
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Apr 23, 2017 04:32
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It wasn't until post Gettysburg that slavery became the moral justification for the war. On the North's side at least. Now, young confederates were marching to war to ensure that god's ordained racial order be maintained.
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Apr 23, 2017 04:34
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Agag posted:Civil Rights was the example of a successful mass political movement. And the black church profoundly interacted with those exact theologians. Bonhoeffer goes back to Germany for two reasons, Barth and his time in Black churches in Harlem. Niebhur brings many of the religious thinkers that matter who had to flee germany: Tillich, Bonheoffer, etc through union. They spend time in Harlem during the Harlem Renaissance. Union students goto study nonviolence with Ghandi, in the same time period. Confessing church and Union are huge. Edit: and when and why do many of these people move away from socialism? Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Apr 23, 2017 |
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Apr 23, 2017 05:03
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RasperFat posted:The idea of equality under law was an Enlightenment ideal that was borne out of separating religion from the government. Religious laws explicitly state different rules for non believers or people of different birth. Enlightenment is looking back to something. It's a stoic idea.
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Apr 23, 2017 05:10
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Agag posted:I think in the most recent election you had two candidates that were obvious frauds and made token gestures to Christians. That being equal, Christians defaulted to the GOP, which they consistently do, as we've discussed. For all her faults I see no reason to doubt Clinton's faith. The same goes for Obama who was actively involved with his church and both wrote and spoke at length about how religion impacted his life - the religious also didn't vote for him. You may think it's not authentic or genuine but there's just nothing to indicate that. They are genuinely Christian but their values are simply not shared by most Christians.
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Apr 23, 2017 06:00
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Bates posted:For all her faults I see no reason to doubt Clinton's faith. The same goes for Obama who was actively involved with his church and both wrote and spoke at length about how religion impacted his life - the religious also didn't vote for him. You may think it's not authentic or genuine but there's just nothing to indicate that. They are genuinely Christian but their values are simply not shared by most Christians. Maybe. I think these people really think they are demigods, so maybe they miss the point a little bit. But strictly speaking its not knowable. BrandorKP posted:And the black church profoundly interacted with those exact theologians. Good points for sure. I think that socialism, by which we ultimately mean Marx, ends up as almost a competing religion and you can't stay loyal to both. If there is a project to work on - civil rights, opposing an evil regime - they can cooperate. But in a vaccuum we can't be waiting for Marxist and Christian eschatology at the same time.
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Apr 23, 2017 08:24
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Liberation theology seems to blend the two without much difficulty. Proselytizing religions are necessarily syncretic so I do see why other, similar creolizations couldn't be formed. Theoretically it's no stranger than the fusion of Christianity with FYGM capitalism. Practically, I don't see a way for it to take root the way you are describing.
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Apr 23, 2017 08:29
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Agag posted:Good points for sure. I think that socialism, by which we ultimately mean Marx, ends up as almost a competing religion and you can't stay loyal to both.
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Apr 23, 2017 08:33
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Agag posted:I'm sure the 19 and 20 year old farmboys marching to war singing abolitionist hymns were really concerned with secular constitutional liberties. I'm sure the kids we send off to war were the arbiters of public opinion. They likely weren't concerned with either secular or spiritual liberties, they were forced or coerced to the battlefield like most of our soldiers have been for centuries. You seem to have a problem separating a person's faith from their works. Would you seriously argue that Douglas wouldn't have been an abolitionist if happened to be Muslim, or atheists, or Diest? Same with Stowe. Their works focused on the personal ways in which slavery affected them. Uncle Tom's Cabin put a narrative on the slave experience which was previously not well known to northern Whites. Douglas's writings were brutal and detailed gruesome scenes of bigotry like Black people starved and beaten to death hanging in cages as a warning for other people of color. Though they may have been religious themselves, their writings were not based around religion. BrandorKP posted:Enlightenment is looking back to something. It's a stoic idea. The Enlightenment was a revival of secular ideas practiced by the Greeks and Romans with a twist of romanticization. It's widely accepted as a secular movement that promoted secularism, championing free thought and scientific pursuit.
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Apr 23, 2017 09:03
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Just a quick reminder that the Bible promotes slavery.
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Apr 23, 2017 14:59
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the bible promotes tearing babies in half
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Apr 23, 2017 15:03
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BrandorKP posted:Where does the idea of equality under law come from? The idea of some races being lesser beings who deserved to be slaves came from the exact same source. And the people who opposed abolition, the people who opposed civil rights, guess which religion they were? You know its kinda funny how you, and a lot of posters, seem to be pretending that those Christians didn't exist.
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Apr 23, 2017 15:08
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RasperFat posted:The Enlightenment was a revival of secular ideas practiced by the Greeks and Romans with a twist of romanticization. It's widely accepted as a secular movement that promoted secularism, championing free thought and scientific pursuit. The Greek philosophy schools were religions. They fit well most definitions of cults. They even have saviors. What we think of as the characteristics of religions, well quite a lot of that comes from them. Further, secular has changed in meaning over the years, what was meant by the word at the time of founding fathers?
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Apr 23, 2017 15:17
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Monglo posted:Just a quick reminder that the Bible promotes slavery. And as a reminder, because I know someone is going to be tripping all over themselves to bring it up, the seven year indentured servituded only applied to Jewish men. Jewish women and all non-jews were chattel slaves for life.
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Apr 23, 2017 15:22
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Who What Now posted:
So we are absolutely clear my response to corrupt religion is: “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.”
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Apr 23, 2017 15:38
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BrandorKP posted:So we are absolutely clear my response to corrupt religion is: That's a worthless response without organized action.
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Apr 23, 2017 15:48
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BrandorKP posted:So we are absolutely clear my response to corrupt religion is: So are you planning on just pretending 2000 years of church history isn't true christianity because it doesn't fit your politics? Because Schweitzer had something to say about that.
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Apr 23, 2017 15:49
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wherein we use the phrase 'chattel slave' because it sounds cool but we dont know what it means
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Apr 23, 2017 15:57
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Calibanibal posted:wherein we use the phrase 'chattel slave' because it sounds cool but we dont know what it means Non-Jewish slaves were slaves for life and were considered property of their owners. What would you call that?
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Apr 23, 2017 15:59
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was,that the actual state of slavery in ancient israelite culture u learned from a scholarly work or is it something u pulled out of ur rear end
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Apr 23, 2017 16:08
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i reccomend DBD's The Problem of Slavery in Western Culture for a fairly comprehensive discourse on the different systems and customs of slavery in western history and also a very detailed description of what chattel slavery is and where it came from
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Apr 23, 2017 16:09
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Have you not actually read the books of Exodus and Deuteronomy? And I have a perfectly fine understanding of what the word chattel is, but thanks for the recommendations.
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Apr 23, 2017 16:14
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And lets say for the sake of argument that I'm wrong (I'm not), do you seriously believe there is nothing morally wrong with indentured servitude?
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Apr 23, 2017 16:18
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u got me
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Apr 23, 2017 16:23
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Agnosticnixie posted:So are you planning on just pretending 2000 years of church history isn't true christianity because it doesn't fit your politics? Because Schweitzer had something to say about that. Most of the problem is American protestants, outside of much of that tradition and who are more American than Christian.
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Apr 23, 2017 16:33
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BrandorKP posted:Most of the problem is American protestants, outside of much of that tradition and who are more American than Christian. And german protestants. And ultra catholics the world over. And brazilian evangelicals. And so on and so on. And the churches and institutions involved. The only problem can easily look like it's American protestantism when your entire perspective is America as an island, though.
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Apr 23, 2017 16:34
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BrandorKP posted:Most of the problem is American protestants, outside of much of that tradition and who are more American than Christian. Ah, so they arent true
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Apr 23, 2017 16:35
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