|
CottonWolf posted:I think all three of these points are probably right. But also, they only get at a shallow why. It doesn't answer the deeper more fundamental question of: "Why was a promise from a 12 year old to a 10 year old so important?" Did a bit of reading on my way to and from work, and I can't help but feel something else happened six years ago that we don't know about. The way they refer to Battler's vehicle paranoia makes it seem as though it's something that wasn't there before, given they'd probably have been traveling together then too.
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2017 23:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 18:30 |
|
|
Since it played this update, enjoy my translation of Promise, the song that plays as Battler wakes to Beatrice's death. -------------------------------------------------- All alone I hugged my knees Having forgotten the meaning of living Despite the pain I kept running my hands Over these dirty, never-fading wounds The peaceful Golden Dream And the words heard on the wind Slowly melded together Into gentle feelings On rainy days, on windy days, Every day I loved you And only that, even now Will never change But with the promise unfulfilled, To protect my weak self, my heart gently pushed me forward And the coming days I faced alone smiled at me to shine Some time, someday. I keep walking to the day I can smile Someday Forgive for just today the sadness I feel I'll bring an end to these broken, ended days On rainy days, on sunny days, Every day I loved you And only that, even now Will never change So I who believed in that promise and lost You held my weak heart in both hands And wiped away my tears To you who were so gentle I say: "Thank you" --------------------------------------------------
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 00:37
|
|
|
idonotlikepeas posted:We know that can't be it, because he wouldn't exclude his relatives. Right, related to Kinzo; forgot that part. Maybe they'll get lucky and Ange will kill him?
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 02:11
|
|
|
Remember that Battler's Sin isn't said to be the single cause of the tragedy by Beato, just one of them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 02:12
|
|
|
Thank you for posting Umineko art in here! I don't really get a chance to look at some of the things that other fans have done because I'm trying to avoid spoilers, so I appreciate it. Yes.  Looking forward to Witch Battler explaining what the heck is going on.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 03:02
|
|
|
Well, if we're posting fan-stuff and such, I might as well post the Magical Gohda Chef theory for Episode 2. I also have a reading of a story relevant to this part, but I think that would be best after next update or two (there's something very slightly spoilery in it). "While attending to the family conference late in the evening, Rosa came by the kitchen and mentioned to Gohda that there was going to be a Halloween party for Maria in the chapel the next day. Thinking this was a wonderful idea, Gohda decided to make some special treats for the occasion, but because he was distracted he accidentally reached for the box marked "Tiny Food Bombs" instead of the sugar. He gave some of the treats to Rosa, who took them to her siblings. They all went to the chapel to check out the party since they'd probably be too tired in the morning, when the tiny food bombs exploded and killed everyone but Rosa, who wasn't hungry. Later, Gohda was hanging out and he heard Jessica having an asthma attack. Rushing upstairs, he found Kanon with her and reached for her inhaler, but as he swung it over to give it to her she tripped and he accidentally impaled her in the back with it. Kanon assumed he was trying to kill her and they struggled, and Gohda accidentally pushed Kanon out the window. Realizing he was going to get in so much trouble for this, he quietly locked the window, planted a stake in Jessica's wound, and walked off whistling. While bored, Gohda decided to show off a new knife trick he learned to Nanjo and Kumasawa. Disaster occurred. Genji suggested they blame Kanon for it so nobody would find out, and dump the bodies somewhere. Later in the evening, George and Shannon refused to believe Gohda's claim that he was capable of juggling three Stakes of Purgatory at the same time. Upset, Gohda offered to prove it to them in Natsuhi's room. Tragically, he was not as proficient as he thought he was. Genji called Battler upstairs to tell him everything. Battler couldn't accept this ridiculous scenario, and declared that it was more likely that a witch did it."
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 04:10
|
|
|
Fates End posted:Well, if we're posting fan-stuff and such, I might as well post the Magical Gohda Chef theory for Episode 2. I also have a reading of a story relevant to this part, but I think that would be best after next update or two (there's something very slightly spoilery in it). This is canon. I'll accept this well constructed series of events as truth.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 05:01
|
|
|
  Video: Opposing TruthsBGM: Hello Your Dream In her hand... was the red longsword of the Decalogue. She also had a blue short sword. In Battler's hand... was a golden longsword. The two rivals once again... No, for the first time... they truly confronted each other.   "Sorry to keep you." "You did NOT. Your return was sooner than I ANTICIPATED." Dlanor's form disappeared in an instant. As though her slow, dignified movements from before were only a lie...! The curve drawn by the longsword of red truth burned itself into the retinas of those who saw it. Before anyone had enough time to follow that curve, it was already approaching Battler's chest...!   "It's possible to show a different truth by using a different interpretation!! When multiple truths exist in parallel, the authenticity of both is questioned!!"In this closed off world, it's possible for differing truths to exist at the same time. Furthermore, as long as multiple truths exist, it's impossible to claim that any of the truths are the single truth. In other words, even if I can't overturn Erika's reasoning, by questioning its credibility... and conquering it, I can defeat it...!  "Bern's reasoning is perfect. You won't be able to overturn it easily. But still." "If you can present a theory on par with Bern's, the fight will come down to a verdict. That means it's possible that either one of the truths will be defeated and denied!" "...This plot twist is truly laughable...!! I'd expect nothing less from a plot twist by a demon!!" "Then let me ASK!! What is this theory with someone other than Natsuhi as the CULPRIT?!!"Battler's golden longsword drew both red and blue curves at will.  "It's possible to construct it using the revenge of the baby from 19 years ago, which Aunt Natsuhi confessed about." "Knox's 1st. It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story! A person first introduced in the 5th game cannot be named as the CULPRIT...!!"  "Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented! Was there ever any foreshadowing showing that you might be the baby from 19 years ago?!!" "The red truth from the 4th game that I am not the son of my mother Asumu. The feeling that Dad was hiding something in both the first game and this game. In particular, in this game, it was made clear that there were some special circumstances having to do with my birth."Battler proposed that he might be the baby from 19 years ago, and announced that he would reconstruct the crime with himself as the culprit. As Dlanor cautiously held her sword at the ready, she gauged the distance between them... Now that Battler had inherited the position of this world's territory lord and attained the rank of Endless Sorceror, his movements surpassed human understanding. By now, the physical distance between them probably counted for nothing. Because their extremely agile battle was surpassing the point where the concept of distance made any difference.  "...A good START. Let us hear... your theory with Battler as the culprit...!" "Yeah, I'll let you hear it. I'll prove that this explanation also works, and that you can't be certain Aunt Natsuhi is the culprit...!"  BGM: Final AnswerThis time, Erika stepped forward. In her hand, there appeared a scythe like one a grim reaper might hold. A ruthless scythe for reaping everything that threatened her theory...!   "It has not been specified that the time of death was between 24:00 and 1:00. Therefore, it's possible that the crime didn't occur between 24:00 and 1:00...!" "There's a restriction on any murders in the cousins' room! From 1:00 AM until the discovery of the crime, it was impossible for the crime to occur in the cousins' room!!" "Dlanor, now!!!" "Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED. If the crime actually was carried out in the cousins' room, clues must have been SHOWN. Because clues were not given to the detective, Lady Erika, who was on the watch for any abnormalities inside that room until morning, such a crime is IMPOSSIBLE...!!" "By the time of the crime's discovery, you mean the point at which I let out a scream and everyone gathered there. Even if it was impossible to kill them before that point, it was possible to kill them afterwards...!!"Battler used a blue flash to deflect both of the red truths that Erika and Dlanor had flung at him...! Erika's eyes went wide. After all, what he had said was completely absurd. ...At that time, they still hadn't been killed...?! Even though corpses with their necks sliced open were laying there?!   "I see, since you believe they were dead by that point, it probably looks as though the dead have been brought back to life to you...! So this might look like magic in your eyes." "...In that case, I won't be the one to take the next shot at you!" "Fool!! How often do I have to say it?!!" "The deaths of the four people in the cousins' room have been proclaimed with the red truth!! Furthermore, those corpses were witnessed by a large number of people!!"   BGM: Dreamenddischarger The fierce shower of red was blocked by a magical barrier set up by Ronove, who suddenly appeared right in front of Battler. Now that Beato was gone, the demons shouldn't have been able to manifest themselves in the real world... However, he 'existed' here, and calmly dealt with Erika's attack. "Y, you, Ronove!! H, how did you get here...?!" "Well, who cares, this all works out nicely. Now there's no need to go looking for you. I'll capture you here and deny your existence too!!" "...I'll leave it to you. Teach her that you can't control everything with a single, arrogant truth." "<Yes, your majesty>.""  "...Well then, allow me to be your opponent for a bit. What do you say, Miss?" "In that case, when do you claim the red truth death proclamation happened?! Are you saying you can pinpoint that?! You can't pinpoint it, so you can't deny that the death proclamation was made at the time of the crime's discovery!!"  "That does not deny the possibility that the murder occurred after the morning of the second day, after the so-called 'discovery of the crime'...!" "Then, you're saying... that the victims were alive at that time?! Even though their necks were sliced open?!" "Did you see that yourself, Miss Detective...? It may be true that all corpses would not lead to a mistaken examination, no matter who it was that checked to see whether they were alive, but it has never been said that there was a rule against something other than a corpse being called a corpse."Erika swung her scythe recklessly, but Ronove blocked everything with elegant gestures made with the shield on one of his hands. "S, so, at that point in time, no one was dead?! There weren't even wounds on their necks?! In that case, why did Battler scream?!"  "Huh?! Ah-"A pitch black hole opened beneath Erika's feet and swallowed her up. She could probably see through to the other side of the hole. It was the same thing you'd see if you looked down out of the skylight on the ceiling of this cathedral.  "Lia!!" "Yes."Virgilia could already be seen in midair inside the cathedral. As Erika fell from the heavens, Virgilia was right below her and caught her on the end of a divine spear which sparkled blue!   "CORRECT. Unless someone other than Kinzo makes the corpses disappear, your theory FAILS." "Geh, gah, gammiiiiiiit, this is nothing... graggh... gah...!!"Virgilia's blue divine spear skewered and pinned Erika in midair. Erika struggled, filled with hatred, but she couldn't get it out easily. Then, all around her, several small, fast things clanged off the walls and enveloped her. Then seven people manifested themselves at once.  "...You... lowly paperweights...!!" "After George's death, his corpse was never moved!" "After Jessica's death, her corpse was never moved!" "After Maria's death, her corpse was never moved!" "After Rosa's death, her corpse was never moved!" "After Genji's death, his corpse was never moved!" "After Krauss's death, his corpse was never moved!" "Therefore, the corpses couldn't have vanished after being discovered!! Your theory about Kinzo carrying the corpses away fails!"  ...Erika was probably capable of escaping this even with Kinzo's existence denied by making only a small revision to her theory. However, to her, having to revise a theory she had already created... was extremely humiliating! "Looks like you toyed around with your plan too much in order to corner Natsuhi like that." "You played around too much with your reasoning. At this point, your master isn't the only one who can speak of Kinzo's death with the red truth." "This is what you get for playing around in the witches' darkness. Know that, Furudo Erika...!" "Nngh, gggh, ggh...!!"Of course, even Erika had doubted Kinzo's existence from the beginning. However, it had previously been impossible for anyone to deny his existence in that trial except for Bernkastel and Lambdadelta, who had sided with each other. And because of the willful silence of those two, the truth about Kinzo had truly been unfixed. And yet, to think that Battler... had become a witch... a sorcerer, and capable of using red without proof!! However, she had her own Inquisitor of Heresy who could also use red without proof to counter!! "D, Dlanoooooooooooorrrr!!!!"  "...Forgive me, drat geezer." "Overcome it, Battler. Don't let my corpse stop you...!!" "Presentation of evidence. I'll present a corpse which could possibly be identified as Ushiromiya Kinzo's...!!" "Can you prove that this corpse is Ushiromiya Kinzo's?! No matter how much it resembles him, unless you can prove that it is him." BGM: None  "...Ooh. Any counter with the red truth will be ineffective? I guess that works." "It may be true that the existence of third-party corpses has already been denied with the red. However, if saying that with the red is forbidden, *giggle*, Battler has nowhere to run to. Heheheheheheheheheh!" "That's right... In this closed-off Rokkenjima, there is no objective way to show that this corpse is Grandfather's." "And that itself suggests the possibility that this corpse is a body double! This unidentifiable corpse cannot serve as proof of Kinzo's death...!!" "...Checkmate...!! My theory does not waver!!"Dlanor had sealed off the red truth as a means of proving that Kinzo's corpse had been shown. Even with the power of witches, Battler couldn't argue back...!  "...How are you gonna prove that the corpse was Kinzo's if the red truth is sealed? It's impossible. It can't be done...!" "...With red or blue, right...?" BGM: Justice Then, when Dlanor... met with Battler's golden flash, she was unable to fully block it with either her red longsword or her blue short sword, and she was blown backwards into empty space...! It was a direct hit... without any miscalculation. Though she had always seemed as firm as a small giant before now, she was finally blasted away and slammed against the wall as though she was the slender girl she appeared to be...! "D, Dlanor?! Wh, what are you..." "...G, gold truth...?!"The golden longsword, which had been drawing red and blue trails before now, finally drew a curve which retained its divine golden color. The truth it showed... was neither red nor blue. It was gold... truth...!!!  "Wh, what is that...? Lambda, does this follow the rules?!" "...Yes. Gold truth, effective. The gold truth... can only be used by the territory lord of this world... no, only by the Game Master himself!!" "Wh, what did you say...?" "...Gold TRUTH. A divine truth woven in a different fashion than the red TRUTH. Its strength is on par with the red TRUTH. It may sometimes be INFERIOR. But it is sometimes SUPERIOR!!" "That glitter... is proof that Battler-kun truly understands Beato." "...I've shown it. Shown that the corpse is Grandfather's." "YES. Gold truth, ACCEPTED. Unless Lady Erika's theory undergoes some revision, it will be DESTROYED...!" Erika cried out in pain. It wasn't the pain of her body being pierced. It was the pain of her own theory being defiled...!   "Battler, it would be excessively unrefined to say any more." "Even without saying another word, you've fully made your truth about the corpses' disappearance 'understood'! I see, 'that thing' you're thinking of doesn't conflict with any of the red in this trial so far!" "Wha. What the...?! Why is that, great Lady Lambdadelta?!! He still hasn't explained everything...!! I still have many ways to argue back, like Hideyoshi's closed room, the seal on Natsuhi's personal room and the button in the closet!" "...So. You still intend to argue back against Battler...?" "Ggah, gwwaagghgghggghhh...!!!!"Only Erika, the one who was supposedly so intelligent, couldn't understand. She couldn't understand that Battler had already found the real truth. "Because of this, Grandfather's absence has been verified, and the dishonorable relationship between Aunt Natsuhi and Grandfather has been removed from consideration!!"  "...B, Battler-kun...!!" "Furthermore. Because we have raised doubts about the time of death for all who have died so far, the alibis for everyone besides Aunt Natsuhi go back to square one...!!" "If you try to argue that the crime was impossible for everyone except Aunt Natsuhi, it won't work!!"Dlanor, who must have risen to her knees at some point, slowly stood up... The flash from the golden longsword was still buried deep into her chest. Though pain didn't show in her expression, her awkward movements clearly showed how serious the damage she had taken was. Even though she herself knew that the match was long over by now... Dlanor didn't abandon her duty...!   "...Knox's 7th, it is forbidden for the detective to be the CULPRIT!! The detective is obligated to have an objective point of VIEW. Your theory violates this OBLIGATION!!" "Furudo Erika is the detective in this game, not me!! And by Knox's 9th, it is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard...!!" "Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED! Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE! Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!!" "In this game! When I figured out the device of the epitaph's riddle, I witnessed Grandfather. As has already been shown in red, Grandfather doesn't exist. It was impossible for me to witness him! Therefore, it has already been shown that my viewpoint wasn't objective!!" "It is possible that it was just a sheet or something fluttering in the wind and rain which you mistook for Kinzo. It cannot be used as foreshadowing to form a basis for Knox's 9th...!! Mistaking things for something else is a right permitted to all observers!!" It's the red truth Beato used to counter my blue truth claim that 'someone disguised themselves as Kinzo' to make it seem as though Grandfather had appeared. In other words, on this island, all illusions which might lead someone to mistake something for Grandfather, including someone else pretending to be Grandfather, 'most certainly cannot work'. All of Aunt Natsuhi's schemes to make it seem that Grandfather existed were hidden in the relatives' blind spots, all of them clever tricks like 'he was here just a second ago' or 'he's in his study alone now'. They never tried to make anyone mistake something they saw for Grandfather himself, so there are no contradictions. If they had tried to dress one of the servants in Grandfather's robe... it would probably have been seen through in an instant... It has been guaranteed that none of the characters in this tale would 'mistake something for Grandfather by sight'...! If someone still claims to have seen Grandfather, it becomes a 'falsehood'. Allowing falsehoods to be contained within their observations is a right granted to everyone... except for just one person. And that person is 'the detective'...!! "Because of the right granted by Knox's 9th, people are allowed to mistake a sheet in the wind for anything else and tell about it. However! Mistaking it for Grandfather in particular is not permitted in this game due to the red truth!!" "...So, once you claimed to have seen Kinzo, it was no longer misrecognition... but INTENTIONAL. In other words, this proves that the observer wasn't objective... is what you are SAYING...?"In this case, unintentional 'misrecognition' is not permitted by the rules of this game. However, it is possible to intentionally 'lie about seeing' something you never saw...!! And that is an action not permitted to a 'detective' burdened with the responsibility of an impartial perspective...  "Forgive my crazy argument... It's all finished now." "No, it's ALRIGHT." You will surely protect the real truth from the tyranny of any plausible truth... that might claim to exist as the sole truth and try to exterminate all fragile TRUTHS...!! Battler's golden longsword... drew a massive blue arc as though splitting the heavens.  "I'm glad I could fight with YOU...!!" "Therefore, my perspective in this game is based upon the 9th, not the 7th...!! The fact that I claimed to have seen Grandfather is proooooooooooofff!!!"...The noise which rang out across the cathedral... was the sound of Dlanor's longsword clattering to the floor. Simply letting go of that was the same as resigning to the proud Dlanor. Though the blue trail Battler had drawn was aiming right for the top of Dlanor's head, it stopped a hair's breadth away... If it hadn't, Dlanor would probably have been annihilated without leaving a single scrap of flesh behind.  BGM: Hello Your Dream "I've paid my debt. Let honor be to your father. The Decalogue was neither arrogant nor judgmental...!" "H, honor to... my FATHER..."Dlanor... sat down on the floor... and completely abandoned her will to fight. "Wh, what are you doing, Dlanor?!! Lame, pathetic!! You stupid half-wit murder doll!!" "You've tainted the honor of your own father, shame on you!! You still call yourself mystery's wedges?! Will you surrender to magic?! The history of the mystery genre won't allow that!!" "...You're the one... that doesn't understand what mystery is all about. If you see mystery as nothing more than a weapon with which to sneer at your opponent intellectually," "...I won't let you ever say so again!!" "...B, Battleeeeeeeeee... eeer...!!!"  "His goal was to make Aunt Natsuhi look like a murderer...!! From the beginning, this has all been a drama of revenge intent on framing Aunt Natsuhi...!!"  "...You still can't pull out the blue spear that's sticking through you, right?" "Yeah, that's right. From Erika, I haven't heard of a single way for the corpses to disappear that doesn't involve Kinzo. Looks like your theory is about to be denied, doesn't it?!" "Th, this spear is just... ugh, gaaaaahh...!! You paperweights... get out of my way...!"...The deeply piercing blue spear and the seven red stakes tormented her theory. They won't come out... they won't come out...!!  "...I acknowledge the mistake in Erika's reasoning and the need for revision." "Wh, what the... my master?!?!"Watching Erika's face contort with pain as she struggled to escape from the spear, Bernkastel spoke this with a disgusted expression. Faced with the facts, Bernkastel had acknowledged Erika's loss herself. Erika gazed at her master, who was no longer confident about Erika's own victory, with a mixture of shock and despair...     "Ooh, agh... hh... y, yes, my master...!! I'll revise it... I'll revise my theory...!! Gyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggghhhh...!!"As Erika's face twisted in humiliation and tears streamed from her eyes, she withdrew and revised her own theory in accordance with her master's order... Mumbling quietly, she made various revisions with the blue truth, had them acknowledged by Lambdadelta, and finally had the blue spear smashed and was freed... Though that blue truth did indeed explain how the corpses had disappeared, it couldn't conceal its desperation and was a bit of truly shabby reasoning.  "...My master... I, I've taken it out... My theory... is perfect..." "Are you kidding me? It's horribly pathetic. But I'll forgive you. Because your face and your theory are so lame it's funny! *giggle*giggle*giggle*giggle*giggle*!!!"Erika was taunted by her master, who wore an ugly expression. She thrashed about on the floor, crying bitter tears. The wounded Dlanor stepped out before her, as though shielding her, and she spoke to Bernkastel, as well as Battler.  "Yeah, that's right. Regardless of my truth, yours can exist at the same time. That's what this world is like. No one can disprove them, so even if there are various truths and even if they contradict each other wildly, they can exist at the same time. Here, as many truths exist as you can imagine. No one can just deny that all on their own...!" "YES, that is TRUE. I won't let anyone deny Lady Erika's TRUTH." "D, Dlanor..." "As long as I'm here, I will protect that TRUTH. No matter how pathetic it is, I will not laugh at that TRUTH." "Aah, waaaaaaaaaaahhhhh!!"...The words of Dlanor, whom Erika had previously looked down upon, led Erika to once again thrash about on the floor, sobbing. "And. Because no unique truth exists, everything is covered in darkness. Therefore. While both my theory and Erika's theory are impossible to deny, neither is a unique truth. They are vague, and while neither can be denied, neither is certain...!!" "Because there has been no decision, the Illusion of the Witch still exists. The only one who will be permitted to expose that is neither Erika nor the rest of you." "...It's me alone! I won't let anyone expose Beatrice's illusion except me!!!" "The verdict is revised...!! Because of the truth presented by Ushiromiya Battler, Erika's truth is no longer unique! However, Erika's truth is impossible to disprove! Therefore, both of their truths exist together! The conclusion of the 5th game is rescinded!" "The game goes back to being even!! And I transfer the position of Game Master from myself to the Golden Sorcerer, Ushiromiya Battler!!" "Yeah!! I'm the new Game Master!! I'll weave the 6th game...!!" "Erika, let's settle things for good this time!! Stand up!!" "...Y, yes, I will stand... I'll make you regret... giving me a chance to clear away this shame...!!! My master, please give me an opportunity to fight with Battler again in the 6th game!!" BGM: Hikari  "Wow, incredible. She said 'I'll give you a chance'." "Isn't this a miracle? The Witch of Miracles, Bernkastel." "Y, yes, my master...!!!" "...Dl, Dlanor..." "Of COURSE. I will give it my all in the next game as WELL." "Heh, heheheheheheh!! I won't pretend to be a guest any longer. Together with Dlanor, I'll tear your game to bits!!" "Sure. I'll invite you to my 6th game...!! Sorry, but that title of yours...<Checkmate of the>... isn't cutting it." "It's your game. You can decide the name yourself! Just bring it on...!! I, Furudo Erika, am a detective before I am a witch!!"  Just watch, Beato. I'll take charge of your game!!  BGM: Tsubasa  TO BE CONTINUED Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Sep 17, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 12:59
|
|
|
And with that, Episode 5 draws to a close! I am now taking a brief health-related hiatus. EP6 will begin... when I feel confident that I can get a backlog moving again.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 13:00
|
|
|
The TIPS section has been updated.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 13:43
|
|
|
 Well, that was certainly cathartic, at least. So we have red and blue swords for red truths and blue... suppositions, I guess? And now there's a gold sword for gold truth. It makes me wonder if Erika's purple scythe is going to lead to some more color text. Are we going to end up with a rainbow? I've also been wondering for a while now if Kannon's, the goats', etc. colored swords are related at all to the colored text. Probably not, but it seems inconsistent.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 14:11
|
|
|
So pure it's an undeniable fact 
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 14:11
|
|
|
tiistai posted:So pure it's an undeniable fact Apparently you can (try to?) murder a servant and child and still be pure?
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 14:16
|
|
|
Zack Ater posted:Apparently you can (try to?) murder a servant and child and still be pure? Shut up, this vulgar tale is not permitted
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 14:19
|
|
|
Interesting. So there's a suggestion that Kinzo's body was used as a substitute for Genji's temporarily. What avenues does that open up? Also there's the red that the bodies were not moved after they were killed, making the conspiracy theory a lot more possible. Zack Ater posted:
I think it's implied that the purple scythe is just a combination of red and blue.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 14:58
|
|
|
This entry pretty much cements the following, in my view: 1. Battler is absolutely not the child from nineteen years ago. He might have made some of the calls, though. He's a more likely suspect than George, and all it requires is that everyone be in on the conspiracy. 2. Yes, literally everyone was in on the conspiracy, except Erika and Natsuhi and some of the servants. It's the only way you can do things like having the entire cousin room be alive. The adults presumably pressured the children into participating. Their goal is clear, to get Natsuhi to crack and admit Kinzo is gone. And then the actual abandoned baby starts murdering people using that as a cover. "Take that, dead people!" is my new motto. ProfessorProf posted:
This line is pretty likely to be a Black Butler reference. Both the manga and the anime would be contemporaneous when these stories were being written. It's about a butler who is a demon, and at least in the anime, he is very prone to saying "Yes, my lord" in English, usually right before some kind of asskicking occurs. Am I supposed to be a little mystified at this point about exactly what the gold truth is? Because I admit that I don't understand it. It's something only the gamemaster uses, and sometimes is better than other kinds of truth and sometimes worse? It doesn't explain a lot. Is this like someone who already read the book giving you hints about the ending? ProfessorProf posted:Erika cried out in pain. It wasn't the pain of her body being pierced. It was the pain of her own theory being defiled...! Bah. A real detective just makes a new theory. Zack Ater posted:Apparently you can (try to?) murder a servant and child and still be pure? She may be a murderer, but at least she never had sex with anybody but her husband.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 15:49
|
|
|
idonotlikepeas posted:Am I supposed to be a little mystified at this point about exactly what the gold truth is? Because I admit that I don't understand it. It's something only the gamemaster uses, and sometimes is better than other kinds of truth and sometimes worse? It doesn't explain a lot. Is this like someone who already read the book giving you hints about the ending? I personally think of Gold as a kinda of Word Of God thing. Whether it's weak or strong could be about whether you accept authorial intent or go all Death of the Author. Battler/the GM guarantees to the readers that X is X, even if human and Red truths can't perfectly cover the matter. But that's just my current theory about Gold. Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Apr 23, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 15:54
|
|
|
idonotlikepeas posted:She may be a murderer, but at least she never had sex with anybody but her husband. A little bit of homicide is part for the course, but sex with Kinzo would be icky.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 15:59
|
|
|
Rodyle posted:A little bit of homicide is part for the course, but sex with Kinzo would be icky. Necrophilia tends to be
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 16:03
|
|
|
And with the reveal of the Gold, I can post How Battler Stole Witchmas: https://polsy.org.uk/play/yt/?vurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DZB01uKJbl0I
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 16:04
|
|
|
havenwaters posted:Necrophilia tends to be With the one winged eagle engraved in our hearts, is he ever truly dead? Goldsmith 4 Lyfe
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 16:04
|
|
|
idonotlikepeas posted:Am I supposed to be a little mystified at this point about exactly what the gold truth is? Because I admit that I don't understand it. It's something only the gamemaster uses, and sometimes is better than other kinds of truth and sometimes worse? It doesn't explain a lot. Is this like someone who already read the book giving you hints about the ending? For the record, it's still hotly debated exactly what the gold truth is in the Umineko fandom. There's multiple interpretations!
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 16:11
|
|
|
I was so incredibly happy when Ronove showed up. Please continue to be the best, Ronove. Let me see if I can piece together the theory Battler was advancing, which Lambda cut short because spoilers. From 24:00-1:00 the people in the dinning room concoct a scheme to get Natsushi to admit the truth about Kinzo. At 1 AM Rosa fills the cousins in on the plan. At 7 AM on the 5th Battler starts screaming about nothing in particular. Jessica, George, Maria, and Rosa all stifle their laughter because they are very much alive at this point. Nobody who isn't in on the joke is allowed to see the "bodies". After everyone leaves, the not-dead sneak off and hide in Kuwadorian, using the path Battler discovered the night before and at least Rosa therefore knows about. At some point after this, real-Beatrice sneaks away and actually kills them. Nobody but the killer knows they are actually dead.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 16:12
|
|
|
Neopie posted:For the record, it's still hotly debated exactly what the gold truth is in the Umineko fandom. There's multiple interpretations! Really? All the places I've seen, it was pretty settled after EP6.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 16:15
|
|
|
Let's leave the Gold Truth discussion to the newbies for now.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 16:18
|
|
|
Is it just me, or does a chunk of the post seem to be missing? I don't get how it went from "no one was dead" to talking about Kinzo. I don't see any theory from Erika about Kinzo moving the bodies. Or are they referring to something in another post that I'm forgetting about? ProfessorProf posted:
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 16:28
|
|
|
the jump from the time of the murders to kinzo being dead confused the gently caress out of me edit: goon hivemind alert Tired Moritz fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Apr 23, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 16:28
|
|
|
CJBurgandy posted:Is it just me, or does a chunk of the post seem to be missing? I don't get how it went from "no one was dead" to talking about Kinzo. I don't see any theory from Erika about Kinzo moving the bodies. Or are they referring to something in another post that I'm forgetting about? There's nothing missing. They just change the subject.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 16:35
|
|
|
Yeah, Gaap just appears outta nowhere to go all "btw your theory sucks now that Red isn't being hogged by Miracles and Certainty"
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 16:42
|
|
|
CJBurgandy posted:Is it just me, or does a chunk of the post seem to be missing? I don't get how it went from "no one was dead" to talking about Kinzo. I don't see any theory from Erika about Kinzo moving the bodies. Or are they referring to something in another post that I'm forgetting about? Erika's end of chapter wrap up was the theory that Natsuhi was working together with Kinzo whom she had seduced, and it was him who had moved the bodies since everyone else had alibis at the time having started moving together as a pack. Obviously it was pretty dumb to build her entire theory requiring the help of a man she thought was dead, but that's just the Erika experience, and that's what team Battler is refuting here.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 16:42
|
|
|
I felt good about Erika getting her comeuppance, and then she was just completely pathetic and I felt bad for her...idonotlikepeas posted:1. Battler is absolutely not the child from nineteen years ago. He might have made some of the calls, though. He's a more likely suspect than George, and all it requires is that everyone be in on the conspiracy. Yeah, Battler never really claims his truth is true. He claims it's coherent. And we can be pretty sure it's not actually true, considering that there's no real way he can be Beatrice. idonotlikepeas posted:2. Yes, literally everyone was in on the conspiracy, except Erika and Natsuhi and some of the servants. It's the only way you can do things like having the entire cousin room be alive. The adults presumably pressured the children into participating. Their goal is clear, to get Natsuhi to crack and admit Kinzo is gone. And then the actual abandoned baby starts murdering people using that as a cover. The other option is drugs. That's consistent with the weird falling sensation that everyone had in episode 4 too, some kind of sleeping pill in their food or something. I can't see that it makes any sense for Jessica to play along, or the servants. Kanon and Kumasawa know that Kinzo's dead. If they wanted to show that, they could just tell someone, and why would Jessica plot her mother's downfall? What does she have to gain there? I feel I'm fighting a losing battle against a grand conspiracy here, but I will continue to fight the rearguard action until it's confirmed in red. E: If there is a conspiracy, the minimum number of people who have to be in on it if you assume that the victims are unwilling are: Battler, Kanon, Nanjo, Rudolf, Kyrie, Eva, Hideyoshi and Kumasawa Gohda and Shanon never interact with the bodies, and everyone else could feasibly be drugged. E2: Actually, Shannon implies she sees one of the corpses too, here... ProfessorProf posted:
CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Apr 23, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 16:44
|
|
"Y, yes. And it was so... horrible...!"
|
CottonWolf posted:I can't see that it makes any sense for Jessica to play along, or the servants. Kanon and Kumasawa know that Kinzo's dead. If they wanted to show that, they could just tell someone, and why would Jessica plot her mother's downfall? What does she have to gain there? The goal of the plot isn't to convict Natsushi of murder, it's to get Natsushi to admit the truth about Kinzo. From Jessica's perspective, once she admits the truth they all come out Candid Camera style and everyone has a good laugh and a rebellious teenager gets to put one over on her strict mother. From the servant's perspective, they are following their master's orders. Even if they don't agree with those orders they have to follow them, because they're furniture.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 17:07
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:The goal of the plot isn't to convict Natsushi of murder, it's to get Natsushi to admit the truth about Kinzo. From Jessica's perspective, once she admits the truth they all come out Candid Camera style and everyone has a good laugh and a rebellious teenager gets to put one over on her strict mother. From the servant's perspective, they are following their master's orders. Even if they don't agree with those orders they have to follow them, because they're furniture. But Krauss and Natsuhi are their masters at that point, aren't they?
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 17:08
|
|
|
Yesssss, the moment I've been waiting for! EagerSleeper posted:Thank you for posting Umineko art in here! I don't really get a chance to look at some of the things that other fans have done because I'm trying to avoid spoilers, so I appreciate it. These images have all been carefully curated for your VIEWING.       Well...most of them. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 17:10
|
|
|
love how many pics have lamb and bern be so smug
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 17:13
|
|
|
CottonWolf posted:But Krauss and Natsuhi are their masters at that point, aren't they? Yes, and the order is "Don't tell anyone about Kinzo being dead." So until Natsushi gives up the lie, they can't say anything about Kinzo. They were never ordered not to participate in any conspiracies to force Natsushi to tell the truth.  Also, all those servants are already in a separate conspiracy to murder a whole bunch of people, so...
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 17:19
|
|
|
CJBurgandy posted:Is it just me, or does a chunk of the post seem to be missing? I don't get how it went from "no one was dead" to talking about Kinzo. I don't see any theory from Erika about Kinzo moving the bodies. Or are they referring to something in another post that I'm forgetting about? Tired Moritz posted:the jump from the time of the murders to kinzo being dead confused the gently caress out of me oblongmeow posted:Erika's end of chapter wrap up was the theory that Natsuhi was working together with Kinzo whom she had seduced, and it was him who had moved the bodies since everyone else had alibis at the time having started moving together as a pack. Obviously it was pretty dumb to build her entire theory requiring the help of a man she thought was dead, but that's just the Erika experience, and that's what team Battler is refuting here. That led into what was a discussion that can be boiled down to, roughly, such: "So you mean to tell me that none of the people we thought were dead are actually dead?" "Well, the one you tried to write in as a creepy old lover? Yeah, he's totally dead. But nobody else."
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 17:20
|
|
|
CottonWolf posted:But Krauss and Natsuhi are their masters at that point, aren't they? Yeah but they're not loving mindless slaves lol There's definitely been a lot of space for them to exercise their own (sometimes murderous) agency. And if the culprit/person from 19 years ago/Kinzo's incest baby/Beatrice is one of the servants, that introduces a whole other level of power playing into the dynamic.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 18:04
|
|
|
I know everyone was assuming this already, but we now have actual red truth saying that Battler was the detective in the first 4 games and thus had an objective viewpoint.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 18:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 18:30 |
|
|
Gold truth feels like a reflection of the authors love for the reader. It's stronger when we can trust the author and weaker if we can't. It feels like when you reread a good mystery after finishing it, seeing the red truths that build the foundation and the gold truths for the world that we accept. In this word, grandfather is dead. Our love or trust in the author allows us to accept that truth now with less fear that it's a half or misleading truth. Also drat, I love it when games do this well.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2017 18:36
|
|
