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Rirse posted:Oh yeah, I forgot the art book in Persona 5 spoiled Adachi, as I was flipping through it early on in the game and come upon the page for Adachi showing him with multiple evil portaits and figured he was the killer. Are you talking about the wrong character or the wrong art book?
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Apr 24, 2017 16:04
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freshlybaked posted:Are you talking about the wrong character or the wrong art book? I meant Persona 4's art book that you got for free with pre-orders. And yeah I meant to say Adachi.
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Apr 24, 2017 16:06
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It's absolutely impossible to see Persona 5's cover and not tell that Goro is the traitor so they kind of failed anyway. Not that the game truly tries to hide this from you
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Apr 24, 2017 16:09
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Rirse posted:I meant Persona 4's art book that you got for free with pre-orders. And yeah I meant to say Adachi. Well, I don't recall anything like that existing back then. The only art book I can think of is the Design Works book, which came even after the anime, and so spoilers probably weren't an issue for anyone.
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Apr 24, 2017 16:25
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Persona 4 definitely came with an art book on preorder. I have the book he's talking about.
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Apr 24, 2017 16:31
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Persona 4 definitely came with an art book on preorder. I have the book he's talking about.
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Apr 24, 2017 16:31
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I've got that art book somewhere. But the only thing I remember from it is that one of the character's (Maybe Ai?) first design was literally just Lisa Silverman. Like straight up did not change a thing.
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Apr 24, 2017 16:32
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The Persona 5 artbook confirms that at one point Sae was just Bayonetta.
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Apr 24, 2017 16:33
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Josuke Higashikata posted:It's absolutely impossible to see Persona 5's cover and not tell that Goro is the traitor so they kind of failed anyway. I do appreciate that the game sort-of tries to trick you by giving Goro his own (hilariously useless) store pages, unique Mementos lines, etc. like a fully fledged character. They got all the game mechanics down in terms of spoiler-hiding, it's just a shame that he's super obvious through the plot.
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Apr 24, 2017 16:36
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Well darn. Persona 4 was kind of the only thing I thought about back around 2010-2011, so I'm surprised at myself for not knowing that fact.
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Apr 24, 2017 17:00
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Harrow posted:My girlfriend watched me play through and it was really fun to see the reactions of someone who isn't all that familiar with SMT or Persona. Before this, her only exposure to Persona was through the Persona 4 anime. So far the best reaction (other than how extremely invested she was in finding out how Joker survived being shot in the head) was how hard she laughed when the ultimate Judgement Persona was loving Satan. Once you've played a couple SMT games, fusing Satan's no big deal. I'm idly curious if you got into the subject of how/why Lucifer, Satan, and Satanael are different Personas and what each represents with her. I'm curious how someone with no SMT/Persona background would react.
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Apr 24, 2017 17:02
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Telling someone unaware that Satan is the being that carries out God's judgment has got to be a really weird trip for them.
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Apr 24, 2017 17:15
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Yeah Satan being Law aligned in SMT2 due to Satan and Lucifer being separated entities and Satan acting as the executioner of God's will is a good religious pull
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Apr 24, 2017 17:22
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Captain Oblivious posted:I'm idly curious if you got into the subject of how/why Lucifer, Satan, and Satanael are different Personas and what each represents with her. I'm curious how someone with no SMT/Persona background would react. The mythology isn't her biggest interest but we did talk about why Lucifer and Satanael are different Personas from Satan, and also what the hell a Yaldabaoth is. I could have gone on and on about Gnosticism because I was way too into both Xenogears and (sigh) Xenosaga when I was in college but thankfully I have a semi-decent handle for when I'm going to cross the line into boring. She had a totally non-religious upbringing so what she already knows about, like, anything related to the Abrahamic religions is fairly small so there wasn't a huge "wait, but I thought..." thing to get over when Lucifer and Satan were different.
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Apr 24, 2017 17:34
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Also God being kind of a dick towards humanity in basically every incarnation almost certainly won't sit well with the people who see Him as a benevolent and loving deity.
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Apr 24, 2017 17:32
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A Gnostic view of YHVH in SMT "helps" a bit if someone's having trouble getting over "God is unambiguously a huge dick" in these games--YHVH is the Demiurge, like Yaldabaoth, and not actually God. I think SMT4 Apocalypse might even hint at that at some point.
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Apr 24, 2017 17:36
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Harrow posted:The mythology isn't her biggest interest but we did talk about why Lucifer and Satanael are different Personas from Satan, and also what the hell a Yaldabaoth is. I could have gone on and on about Gnosticism because I was way too into both Xenogears and (sigh) Xenosaga when I was in college but thankfully I have a semi-decent handle for when I'm going to cross the line into boring. I had a super religious upbringing and I didn't know God or Satan had a bunch of separate parts/aspects/entities until Persona
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Apr 24, 2017 17:36
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Harrow posted:She had a totally non-religious upbringing so what she already knows about, like, anything related to the Abrahamic religions is fairly small so there wasn't a huge "wait, but I thought..." thing to get over when Lucifer and Satan were different.
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Apr 24, 2017 17:39
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Oh yeah, almost no major religion in the West actually includes that stuff in its canon. I don't know much about Judaism, to be fair, so maybe that differentiates between Lucifer and Satan. I think it's just easier to go "oh, that's some interesting mythology" if you aren't already super familiar with Western Christianity already.
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Apr 24, 2017 17:40
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well at least you get to kill the archangels
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Apr 24, 2017 17:41
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Now I kind of want to go back into this game just to browse the compendium and read a bunch of the entries. It's really kind of elegantly connected to the narrative how you start with low-level folklore characters as personae before ending up with the heavy hitters from the world's major religions
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Apr 24, 2017 17:42
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the angels wanting you dead in the last dungeon reminded me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_Is_the_Absence_of_God
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Apr 24, 2017 17:43
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Harrow posted:A Gnostic view of YHVH in SMT "helps" a bit if someone's having trouble getting over "God is unambiguously a huge dick" in these games--YHVH is the Demiurge, like Yaldabaoth, and not actually God. I think SMT4 Apocalypse might even hint at that at some point. It flat out states it. YHVH is the supreme being in the universe, but there are countless universes and the being at the very top of the food chain is benevolent for that is why Messiahs keep on popping up to deal with YHVH who can not be permanently defeated.
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Apr 24, 2017 17:48
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Moltrey posted:There's literally a section in the artbook about how Goro lives alone in an apartment, goes around to fancy resturants to try new dishes so he can have food to use as SOME kind of conversation point and has no problem waiting in long lines cause what the gently caress else is he gonna do with his sad existence. Too real, game. 
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Apr 24, 2017 17:52
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I have no idea how true it was, but there was always that quote going around that said that YHVH being such a ruthless, crushing entity was symptomatic of some bigger problem in the universe
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Apr 24, 2017 17:57
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Moltrey posted:I have no idea how true it was, but there was always that quote going around that said that YHVH being such a ruthless, crushing entity was symptomatic of some bigger problem in the universe Man is the real monster, for wishing such an entity into being
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Apr 24, 2017 18:06
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It was really weird to me that Shido turned out to be in his early fifties. His portrait looks pretty young and his whole reformer here to fix the system persona fits a lot better to me if he was in his thirties.
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Apr 24, 2017 18:18
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Ethiser posted:It was really weird to me that Shido turned out to be in his early fifties. His portrait looks pretty young and his whole reformer here to fix the system persona fits a lot better to me if he was in his thirties. Early fifties IS fairly young for a politician like him 
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Apr 24, 2017 18:21
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I was going to guess forties before they said how old he was but that's not that far off, I guess.
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Apr 24, 2017 18:23
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Ethiser posted:It was really weird to me that Shido turned out to be in his early fifties. His portrait looks pretty young and his whole reformer here to fix the system persona fits a lot better to me if he was in his thirties. He's supposed to be of an age with Sojiro, and is a fitness fanatic (as implied by one of the stages of his boss fight) consumed by Pride, so I think the comparison between the two and their lifestyles is pointed. In the end, for all his talk about being a reformer, he's still an adult detached from the "current" generation embodied by Sae.
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Apr 24, 2017 18:27
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Ethiser posted:It was really weird to me that Shido turned out to be in his early fifties. His portrait looks pretty young and his whole reformer here to fix the system persona fits a lot better to me if he was in his thirties.
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Apr 24, 2017 18:30
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Harrow posted:Oh yeah, almost no major religion in the West actually includes that stuff in its canon. I don't know much about Judaism, to be fair, so maybe that differentiates between Lucifer and Satan. I think it's just easier to go "oh, that's some interesting mythology" if you aren't already super familiar with Western Christianity already. Judaism doesn't have a Hell and there's no Lucifer. Satan is an angel and the Prosecutor of Humanity on God's behalf. So the SMT Law-aligned Judgement Satan is actually closer to Judaism than Christianity.  Satanael meanwhile is a Gnosticism thing and I don't really know much about that, but since we have him in Persona 5 and not Helel, it's possible he's there to fulfill the Righteous Rebel slot that Lucifer/Helel take up in the mythology of rebelling against an unjust God. HellOnEarth fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Apr 24, 2017 |
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Apr 24, 2017 19:05
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HellOnEarth posted:Satanael meanwhile is a Gnosticism thing and I don't really know much about that, but since we have him in Persona 5 and not Helel, it's possible he's there to fulfill the Righteous Rebel slot that Lucifer/Helel take up in the mythology of rebelling against an unjust God. The name "Satanael" comes up in a bunch of different places and covers a few different stories, though all of them are rebels against God, though whether he rebels against the actual God (the Monad) or the Demiurge varies. Gnosticism is hard to pin down, honestly. There are so many Gnostic sects and myths that coming up with any sort of coherent narrative that's true to all of them is drat near impossible. In most Gnostic myths, and apparently in some early Judaism, Satanael is basically just Lucifer. This is the reading Persona 5 went with. And of course, in Gnostic myths where the Demiurge/Yaldabaoth exists separate from Satanael, Satanael's rebellion against him is significantly more righteous than Lucifer's rebellion against God, in that the Demiurge is a false god who nonetheless believes he's the true creator of everything and behaves with the selfish, misguided righteousness that he feels that entitles him to. Satanael wants to give humanity the tools to free themselves from the Demiurge. In one particular Gnostic sect's canon, Satanael is basically the Demiurge: he's God's first son and created our universe (along with Adam and Eve) after being cast out of heaven. This one's interesting because, if we decide to read Persona 5 through that lens, Satanael and Yalbadaoth are just two sides of the same coin. That's not likely the intention, though.
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Apr 24, 2017 19:17
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I'm trying to catch as much incidental chatter around town as I can in my NG+ playthrough, and I only just now found out about Makoto trying to tail you around Shujin and being incredibly conspicuous about it. She's so cute, walking behind you pretending to read some book and going "I'M, UH, VERY BUSY PLEASE DON'T MIND ME" whenever you talk to her 
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Apr 24, 2017 21:17
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Absolutely needs posting again all the time, forever.
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Apr 24, 2017 21:23
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I missed out on that the first time because I was fast traveling all the time. It's amazing that she runs after you if you go too far.
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Apr 24, 2017 22:02
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She'll also tail you at Central Street and the Underground Walkway in Shibuya. It's adorable
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Apr 24, 2017 22:22
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Marogareh posted:I missed out on that the first time because I was fast traveling all the time. It's amazing that she runs after you if you go too far. I'm guilty of this a lot too, but I try to explore every zone at least every couple of weeks talking to people and see what's changed.
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Apr 24, 2017 22:22
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Marogareh posted:I missed out on that the first time because I was fast traveling all the time. It's amazing that she runs after you if you go too far. If you go to the toilet while she's following you in the school, she'll run up to the entrance, pause, then turn around and run off. Or perhaps the AI just did that and it's not meant to be scripted. Either way, it happened to me and it made me laugh.
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Apr 24, 2017 22:44
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smenj posted:If you go to the toilet while she's following you in the school, she'll run up to the entrance, pause, then turn around and run off. Or perhaps the AI just did that and it's not meant to be scripted. Either way, it happened to me and it made me laugh. I think what happens with her AI is that she has a specific looping path to follow and she only stops when she's within a certain distance from you while you're on her path. If you're not on her path, she'll just go back and forth until you get back on. Like, she'll follow you up and down Central Street while you're on the main path, but if you walk behind her, she walks to the other end of the street before coming back to you and if you duck down into an alley, she'll just go back and forth forever because she's lost sight of you.
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Apr 24, 2017 22:50
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