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unlawfulsoup posted:Holden is sort of necessary because you usually need someone to ground the more interesting/zany characters. Also, I think for the most part his decision making is pretty logical. Yeah, he may have went Ahab at the last encounter, but I can totally understand him wanting to stop the protomolecule after Eros. It basically was a cause for him, Holden is simply a pretty average dude who went to space to find one. The rest of the Roci crew have more personality, so no doubt they are going to be more interesting. There's no excuse for doing the Batman voice.
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Apr 25, 2017 11:18
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Toast Museum posted:What's the Mary Sue angle? He's not especially good at anything but drawing attention to himself, and that often doesn't go great for him or others. The events surrounding Eros made him famous (in the books, at least), but a lot of people think he's just an idiot or an rear end in a top hat. Well from the 1.5 books I've read he really shouldn't be alive. Everybody keeps talking about how annoying and stupid he's being, he's rolling around in a stolen piece of awesomeness that is a ship and causing trouble for so many people I feel like it'd be easier just to pop him out of the sky and be done with it. He makes stupid decisions and nothing really comes of it except one time one dude dies a few pages/episodes in. Free Johnson puts it pretty bluntly by saying he fixed up the ship so much it might as well be his, but then Holden gets to leave with it because...? AirborneNinja posted:I thought he sold being pinned to a wall by magnets capable of holding a heavy rear end crate in place during 15+ g burns while a giant blue space man alternatively tears up his ship or tries to eat his face pretty well. Really? You got pain/scared from that? I got constipated and annoyed about it. JacksLibido fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Apr 25, 2017 |
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Apr 25, 2017 13:14
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I think the problem with just shooting Holden and being done with it is that he always spooges his dumbassery across social media every time he feels even vaguely threatened so it would be a PR disaster. Even if his reactor just happened to "accidentally" lose containment with no warning while the Roci was out and about, he's already a minor celebrity so it would be a little suspicious. Also, the major powers have way more important things to worry about for now, so I can understand putting Holden on the back burner to deal with the apocalyptic war that's brewing.
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Apr 25, 2017 14:50
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The show mostly dropped it but the media thing in the books is huge. Everybody knows who Holden is by this point, that's why they go to Ganymede in (bad) disguise. Just assassinating someone famous system-wide because you find him irritating isn't really a thing you can do unless you want everyone to hate you.
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Apr 25, 2017 14:58
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Related, the book versions of his broadcasts are at least a little more clever. The show version of the Canterbury aftermath, as I recall it, is basically: WE FOUND MARTIAN GEAR ON A TRAP SHIP AND NOW THE DONNAGER IS COMING FOR US In the books it's a series of messages. Holden: The Cant got nuked and we found Martian gear on the trap ship. (Surely nobody will jump to conclusions. I'm just stating facts!) [I never said he wasn't still kinda dumb] Donnager, in a tightbeam message: Sit tight, we're coming to pick up your stranded shuttle. Holden, broadcasting instead of replying with tightbeam: Hi Donnager, we'd love to be your well-treated guests. Donnager: Jesus, fine, just stop broadcasting. Same outcome, but it gives Holden a bit more subtlety, which is kind of nice.
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Apr 25, 2017 15:17
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Toast Museum posted:
Sure buddy, you'll be safe here. We can protect you from anything short of high-speed tungsten slugs. 
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Apr 25, 2017 15:56
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MA-Horus posted:I really wish we had gotten the "without my suit I'm a good soldier, with my suit I'm a goddamn superhero" line.
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Apr 25, 2017 16:06
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Snowman Crossing posted:Sure buddy, you'll be safe here. We can protect you from anything short of high-speed tungsten slugs. Enough slug related book spoilers people!!!
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Apr 25, 2017 16:17
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Toast Museum posted:Same outcome, but it gives Holden a bit more subtlety, which is kind of nice. Yeah, basically trying to buy themselves some insurance. Everyone in the system knows that the Donnager is taking them in, so the Martians can't make them disappear without everyone knowing. Instead in the show he basically starts System War 2 with an angry vlog.
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Apr 25, 2017 17:10
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I think Holden maybe just suffers the most from the condensed nature of a television adaptation. Other than completely written out or merged characters I mean.
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Apr 25, 2017 18:31
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No he's just as bland and dumb in the books
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Apr 25, 2017 19:53
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fridge corn posted:No he's just as bland and dumb in the books Sort of, but he at least has lots of interior dialogue and thought processes. Rereading Caliban's War, and it's pretty obvious in hindsight that in both the book and show the protomonster in the Rocinante deliberately didn't kill Holden or Amos when it obviously could have based on the way it chewed up the Ganymede marines. It wasn't quite minimum force, but it approached minimum to disable.
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Apr 25, 2017 21:07
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Liked the episode. Liked the season more than 1. Mass Effect husk effects were good, but it was kinda underutilized as a holyshit tier threat, since Holden was more at risk from sepsis or excessive G's than the thing itself. Throwing a big weight around was sold as more physics-bending in the book than in the show. I guess that's a common refrain I had. If I hadn't read the books maybe the show would have hit harder at some points, like Bobby's power armor. Of course, if the escape from New Caprica had been part of a great novel I'd have thought of the TV BSG episode as underwhelming. Wife doesn't really ooh or aah beefcake on screen usually, but she had to have me pause it during the shirtless Amos scene. She just kinda assumed he'd be portly or have an average physique at best under the jumpsuits he always wears, without even having read the books. She dubbed him Sociopathic Helo. Liked Cotyer not even realizing he'd been shot, a nice small touch. And how he checked his ammo every volley. Don't really expect a good soldier to waste that many shots blind firing if he's strapped on ammo, but meh TV. More often than not though the show nails the small touches, like Avasarala apologizing for guessing wrong about Mao's intentions after surrendering. I also kinda expected/hoped for we need to talk but I agree that the timing wouldn't quite fit here. there's barely been that much time since the Eros Crater, so it wouldn't feel as earned, as much of a twist. plus, contract-wise, now I kind of expect it mid-season three so they can get the actor on board for that part of the season and all of season 4. Longbaugh01 posted:I think Holden maybe just suffers the most from the condensed nature of a television adaptation. Other than completely written out or merged characters I mean. Long wait til 2018 
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Apr 25, 2017 21:23
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Number Ten Cocks posted:Sort of, but he at least has lots of interior dialogue and thought processes. I felt the book instead sold it as a lot more alien. Lots more physics-defying in how it threw things around. How it didn't really care at ALL about them, only the power it could latch onto. How it was pretty much just dormant, chilling there, most of the time. The show did let Prax add some drama in there, and almost sold the whole "oh god he's going to try to talk to it and get murdered" angle.
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Apr 25, 2017 21:26
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Number Ten Cocks posted:Sort of, but he at least has lots of interior dialogue and thought processes. The problem I had with the show was that it's inexplicable that it didn't kill Holden. You could say "it just uses the minimum force to disable," but it sure didn't use minimum force with the scientists it shredded back in the lab. And, okay, there you could say "But the scientists had guards that were shooting at it," but Holden had just magdumped into it. I can accept implacably hostile murdermachine, I can accept "passive unless you gently caress with it," but it shouldn't switch back and forth between modes just to make the screenwriter's job easier. Also, it taking so incredibly long to tear through the deck was more tedious than suspenseful. Budget limitations, I imagine.
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Apr 25, 2017 21:32
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Phanatic posted:The problem I had with the show was that it's inexplicable that it didn't kill Holden. You could say "it just uses the minimum force to disable," but it sure didn't use minimum force with the scientists it shredded back in the lab. And, okay, there you could say "But the scientists had guards that were shooting at it," but Holden had just magdumped into it. I can accept implacably hostile murdermachine, I can accept "passive unless you gently caress with it," but it shouldn't switch back and forth between modes just to make the screenwriter's job easier. It had been away from radiation sources for so long that it was tired so was being lazy.
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Apr 25, 2017 21:33
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HUGE SPACEKABLOOIE posted:His name is Nick Tarabay and if you haven't watched Spartacus drop whatever you're doing and go watch all of it right now. This is a pro post. He is under-utilized in everything hes done since which borders on criminal.
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Apr 25, 2017 21:40
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Phanatic posted:The problem I had with the show was that it's inexplicable that it didn't kill Holden. You could say "it just uses the minimum force to disable," but it sure didn't use minimum force with the scientists it shredded back in the lab. And, okay, there you could say "But the scientists had guards that were shooting at it," but Holden had just magdumped into it. I can accept implacably hostile murdermachine, I can accept "passive unless you gently caress with it," but it shouldn't switch back and forth between modes just to make the screenwriter's job easier. I'm not suggesting that it didn't kill them when it easily could have to make the screenwriter's job easier. I'm suggesting it had two priorities in this order: 1) Don't kill the Rocinante crew, 2) do what is necessary to survive. Or at least, survive, but do everything you can not to kill the Rocinante crew if possible. It's more obvious in the book when you read the Ganymede/marine and Rocinante/monster scenes in close proximity. On Ganymede one threw an armored marine at Bobby from a very long distance (much less than the size of the cargo hold) and didn't miss (she got knocked out of the way by a buddy who took the hit). On the Rocinante one threw a container at Holden and pinned him rather than squash him. On Ganymede they easily shredded power armor with their claws. On the Rocinante one backhands Holden in his less capable armor to prevent him from shooting. And I'm saying that maybe this isn't dumb inconsistent poo poo to build drama. We know from Julie Mao that the protomolecule that landed on Venus can retain some aspects of absorbed human personalities and cognition integrated with it's overarching "task" programming. We can suspect from the way the Venus protomolecule destroyed the Arboghast simultaneously (FTL) to the protomonster being destroyed by the Roci that there's some connection or communication between the two. And we know someone who liked the Rocinante crew got absorbed into the Venus protomolecule. I never made this connection when first reading the book (there's certainly no explanation of these incidents at any point), but now I can see it, and the same linkages exist in the show. Here's some book versions of stuff already shown in the show for extra context, spoilered for the extra sensitive: In the book the Arboghast is triggered by the grenade releasing the protomonster on Ganymede, and the initial protomonster attack/self destruct also triggers simultaneous Venus spike in activity. Based on that first commonality Avasarala explicitly suspects and is tasked to investigate what connection the two have and whether Venus, rather than some human agency, is responsible for the protmolecule events at Ganymede. Number Ten Cocks fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Apr 25, 2017 |
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Apr 25, 2017 22:15
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bloom posted:I'm currently on the fifth book and now I really want to see the scene where (not really a spoiler but this is tviv soooo)Amos calls Avasarala Chrissie. With the actors they've got it should be glorious. 
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Apr 26, 2017 00:33
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Pander posted:Throwing a big weight around was sold as more physics-bending in the book than in the show. It specifically was not physics-bending. The thing is crazy strong, but it still needs leverage and a way to anchor itself to pick up and effectively throw big heavy objects.
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Apr 26, 2017 00:47
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it also seemed to have something akin to magboots like the humans. Probably a modification by the martian mad scientists.
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Apr 26, 2017 00:54
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Toast Museum posted:It doesn't exactly look great that they made both of Avasarala's superiors white when neither was in the books. I would be real money that if the situation was inverted, there would be people on the internet complaining that the one white man is the only competent one. There is literally no way to 100% shut down complaints like this, which is why they're just ignored instead.
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Apr 26, 2017 01:46
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counterfeitsaint posted:I would be real money that if the situation was inverted, there would be people on the internet complaining that the one white man is the only competent one. There is literally no way to 100% shut down complaints like this, which is why they're just ignored instead. Inverted in what way? If they'd made Avasarala a white man for the show?
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Apr 26, 2017 02:28
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Toast Museum posted:Inverted in what way? If they'd made Avasarala a white man for the show? If Avasarala's character was a white dude and 'both her bosses' were minorities, the show would be criticized because the one white person is the only competent one who gets poo poo done, often under her oblivious boss's noses. Which, admittedly would be pretty lovely, which is why I'm glad things are the way they are instead.
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Apr 26, 2017 02:50
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counterfeitsaint posted:If Avasarala's character was a white dude and 'both her bosses' were minorities, the show would be criticized because the one white person is the only competent one who gets poo poo done, often under her oblivious boss's noses. Which, admittedly would be pretty lovely, which is why I'm glad things are the way they are instead. Or they could have left the characters as they were in the books and avoided both complaints 
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Apr 26, 2017 03:05
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Then you get people complaining that Shohreh Aghdashloo doesn't look/sound Indian or whatever. It's impossible not to get complaints. That said, whitewashing both Errinwright and the Secretary General IS kinda lovely.
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Apr 26, 2017 03:09
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Regardless of why he was cast, I do want to give the actor that plays Errenwright props. He's the ugly face of a pure progressive philosophy without any morality beyond an arbitrarily defined "greater good". Buying into monstrous schemes because he thinks he's being the intelligent adult in the room, making the hard choices for Earth while actually doing nothing but enriching and empowering the most powerful on Earth could be read as a critique of modern neoliberalism if you wanted to try and dig into finding some messages in the show. Remember, Errenwright pulls of his little coup because he assumes that Avasarala is doing what he would do if he got that message from Mao, going to cut a deal for herself. When push comes to shove, for Errenwright, it comes down to him first. Given how the casting changes aren't systematic makes me wonder if some of the decisions were purely based on the auditions they got - I think anyone who wants to dig into that question needs to find the casting calls for Ade and Errenwright if they want to talk about whitewashing beyond minor institutional biases in hiring that exist across all job markets. At least Syfy has learned something and they didn't go full Earthsea with the casting. Syfy's history with this stuff is pretty lovely. E: I did forget they recast the secretary general from the books too. Given how harshly treated both the secretary general and Errenwright are in the books, I wonder if there might've been some weirdly misguided recasting involved in how they chose the skin color of the actors for characters that are almost exclusively negatively portrayed - if it was indeed a intentional choice. ATP_Power fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Apr 26, 2017 |
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Apr 26, 2017 03:34
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I get the impression the skintone of those characters in the books was a bit of an afterthought and they just cast who ever felt right in the audition for those more minor roles. Bobbie being a main character they did their best to cast her as close to described, but more secondary political characters? Eh, just cast who ever works. Basically the Rocci crew and Bobbie and Chrissie are hand-crafted PC's while the others were just rolled up on an NPC generator table and they just went with what ever came up.
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Apr 26, 2017 04:09
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Who's mad about Thorssen.
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Apr 26, 2017 04:19
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Baronjutter posted:I get the impression the skintone of those characters in the books was a bit of an afterthought and they just cast who ever felt right in the audition for those more minor roles. Bobbie being a main character they did their best to cast her as close to described, but more secondary political characters? Eh, just cast who ever works. I'm sure this is it. I have zero memory of what Errinwright or the secretary general are supposed to look like. I don't even remember the SG's name. All the main cast clearly had an effort made to match the books.
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Apr 26, 2017 04:19
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Grand Fromage posted:I don't even remember the SG's name. I think in the book he's even referred to as "The bobble head" or "The moron" (by Avasarala of course) more than his actual name gets used anyhow.
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Apr 26, 2017 04:32
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Grand Fromage posted:I have zero memory of what Errinwright or the secretary general are supposed to look like. Yeah, I don't recall those characters at all. Also I'm very disappointed in the power armor reveal, the suits are supposed to be wildly powerful. Like bringing a tank to a knife fight.
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Apr 26, 2017 06:07
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Smiling Jack posted:Yeah, I don't recall those characters at all. I mean, sorta, yea, but they're also described as being designed explicitly for shipboard combat, being able to easily move through maintenance shafts and shrug off the kind of small arms you'd be restricted to using inside a ship that you didn't want to ventilate. So it's not supposed to be a more we machine style bulky armor with shoulder mounted Gatling funds and so on. I think they did a pretty decent job at making something that looks armored and maneuverable, it just doesn't have enough obvious servo style bits to convey the fact that it's more iron Man than Holden's basic armor. Of course the scenes of Bobbie tossing people around does get that but across!
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Apr 26, 2017 06:16
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It's still a TV show You can't expect iron man level power armor shenanigans.. and they probably blew their time aed budget on other, more important scenes like julie/miller and the protomonster
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Apr 26, 2017 06:41
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In terms of conveying its power, I think the biggest disservice they did to the armor was to show Bobbie successfully beating it at arm wrestling. The book version of the armor could tear your arm right off. I know the point of the scene was to show that Bobbie is strong, but there had to be another way to do it.
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Apr 26, 2017 06:47
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I don't want Iron Man, I want "holy gently caress there's a armored marine lose on the ship she's literally unstoppable we are so hosed" reaction but it's hard to squeeze that into the TV show. I thought the appearance of the suit was spot on. The reactions- and the idea someone could beat it in arm wrestling- not good. Conversely the fact that a Protomonster shredded a UN marine platoon and then a Martian Marine squad should have elicited more of a "holy loving shitsnacks what is this thing" not "he wasn't wearing a vac suit" reaction.
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Apr 26, 2017 07:07
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Toast Museum posted:In terms of conveying its power, I think the biggest disservice they did to the armor was to show Bobbie successfully beating it at arm wrestling. The book version of the armor could tear your arm right off. I know the point of the scene was to show that Bobbie is strong, but there had to be another way to do it. Could easily be hand waved away as the arm not operating at full juce
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Apr 26, 2017 14:25
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Daktari posted:Could easily be hand waved away as the arm not operating at full juce I guess. I mean, she wins by breaking it. There are literally smoke and sparks coming out of it when she's done.
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Apr 26, 2017 14:29
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I thought that was some silly arm wrestling machine. Didn't pick up that it was their actual power armor. Huh. Need to rewatch the whole series anyway, so I'll look for that.
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Apr 26, 2017 16:41
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Grand Fromage posted:The show mostly dropped it but the media thing in the books is huge. Everybody knows who Holden is by this point, that's why they go to Ganymede in (bad) disguise. Just assassinating someone famous system-wide because you find him irritating isn't really a thing you can do unless you want everyone to hate you. Works for the Russians? A little polonium in his tea and there ya go! Hell even the US would lock his Wikileaks rear end up until he chopped off his dick and changed his name to holly. Toast Museum posted:In terms of conveying its power, I think the biggest disservice they did to the armor was to show Bobbie successfully beating it at arm wrestling. The book version of the armor could tear your arm right off. I know the point of the scene was to show that Bobbie is strong, but there had to be another way to do it. Which makes even less sense when you remember that the martians have trouble in 1g and have to take special drugs to or have hosed up bones. It's been a while since I read the books but if I remember right earthers are described as being stronger than anybody born off world. If all that is true, then that power armor has to be complete poo poo since if an offworld chick can snap it's arm. JacksLibido fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Apr 26, 2017 |
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Apr 26, 2017 17:02
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