|
My biggest gripe with Cap and the hammer is that it means Thor is going to probably tie into Secret Empire now, which sucks because I'm loving Thor and the Norse gang vs. the Shi'ar gods and their people. Just keep my sweet cosmic books to themselves, Marvel 
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 08:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 08:20 |
|
|
Nessus posted:At this point Spencer has to know what he's doing even if he is probably going 'aha, by using their imagery it will be all the sweeter when I do a reversal later!' in his head. That's probably what Nick Spencer's not-racist brain is thinking in his not-a-nazi head.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 09:28
|
|
|
Stormfront (where people who think Hitler was actually great and awesome hang out) are apparently loving this and using Nazi Captain America as a symbol. Add in the tarpit of the alt-right thinking this proves that they're 'reclaiming America' and I can't help but think that a) This is really bad timing by Marvel and B) Spencer's a fuckhead.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 11:13
|
|
|
Dan Didio posted:That's probably what Nick Spencer's not-racist brain is thinking in his not-a-nazi head. What's that old saying, "cut a liberal and a fascist bleeds"?
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 12:22
|
|
|
BetterToRuleInHell posted:Just keep my sweet Agreed.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 15:36
|
|
|
BetterToRuleInHell posted:
Well, cancelling all of them qualifies as that in a sense...
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 15:41
|
|
|
BetterToRuleInHell posted:My biggest gripe with Cap and the hammer is that it means Thor is going to probably tie into Secret Empire now, which sucks because I'm loving Thor and the Norse gang vs. the Shi'ar gods and their people. At least as of the (furthest out) July solicitations, Thor is not tying in.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 16:22
|
|
|
OG Thor needs his hammer back by the movie so Mighty Thor can't really afford to give up any issues with the amount of ground they still need to cover.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 18:19
|
|
|
^burtle posted:OG Thor needs his hammer back by the movie so Mighty Thor can't really afford to give up any issues with the amount of ground they still need to cover. Movie Thor is losing his hammer in the movie so they might not be rushing that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 18:21
|
|
|
PST posted:Stormfront (where people who think Hitler was actually great and awesome hang out) are apparently loving this and using Nazi Captain America as a symbol. Add in the tarpit of the alt-right thinking this proves that they're 'reclaiming America' and I can't help but think that a) This is really bad timing by Marvel and B) Spencer's a fuckhead. I like to cheer for the villains in the first act of a movie, and act like they'll never be thwarted by the heroes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 19:47
|
|
|
...what did that have to do with anything?
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 19:48
|
|
|
Roth posted:...what did that have to do with anything? I doubt the ending of Secret Empire is that Nazi Cap is in charge of the world.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 19:50
|
|
|
I mean, the point was that actual Nazis love Nazi Cap, and are using him as a symbol. I don't think anybody here thinks this will end in anything but the heroes winning in the end.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 19:52
|
|
|
I assume that the Nazis will claim that the SWJcucksquadron forced them to change Captain America back or something and continue to use Nazimerica as a symbol of how it should be.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 19:55
|
|
|
I seriously doubt Stormfront will be surprised when the nazis lose, or that it will dampen their enthusiasm for Nazi cap. Nick Spencer is not a mastermind setting them up for a fall.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 20:00
|
|
|
Lurdiak posted:I seriously doubt Stormfront will be surprised when the nazis lose, or that it will dampen their enthusiasm for Nazi cap. Nick Spencer is not a mastermind setting them up for a fall. (current estimate: 4 months from now)
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 20:20
|
|
|
yea nazi cap is just gonna keep being a thing bad people parade around now
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 20:20
|
|
|
Yeah, I remember an old SA thread about terrible myspace pages, and all the white nationalist types had American History X as their favourite movie. If people don't expect to get any mainstream representation then they will run with whatever they can get.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 20:51
|
|
|
So the story trailer for the new MvC came out today and I don't know why they're not doing an event for that as opposed to this clusterheck.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 20:52
|
|
Marvel knows where the real money is.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 21:58
|
|
|
Maybe I'm missing something because I haven't read SE#0 yet, but considering the entire story arc is like 99% guaranteed to end with the Nazis losing I'm having a hard time understanding why people are finding it so objectionable.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 22:23
|
|
|
fadam posted:Maybe I'm missing something because I haven't read SE#0 yet, but considering the entire story arc is like 99% guaranteed to end with the Nazis losing I'm having a hard time understanding why people are finding it so objectionable. Welcome back to the thread. I suggest reading the previous pages that discussed just that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 22:33
|
|
|
glitchwraith posted:Welcome back to the thread. I suggest reading the previous pages that discussed just that. I have, and I still don't get it. Like, who gives a poo poo if Nazis think its cool that a character was briefly made a Nazi before getting the poo poo beat out of him? Nazis are stupid.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 22:36
|
|
|
fadam posted:I have, and I still don't get it. Because they'll use that imagery as propaganda forever and maybe doing anything that makes actual, literal, no-poo poo Nazis happy for even a second is something that should be avoided at all costs?
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 22:40
|
|
|
Like the Punisher.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 22:42
|
|
|
rantmo posted:Because they'll use that imagery as propaganda forever and maybe doing anything that makes actual, literal, no-poo poo Nazis happy for even a second is something that should be avoided at all costs? That's always going to happen though. Here's the Stormfront movie review board: https://www.stormfront.org/forum/f101/. Here's some right wing mutant jacking off about how My Little Pony is a nationalist master piece http://thefederalist.com/2017/04/17/4-positive-countercultural-messages-little-pony/. Nazis find pro-Nazi messages in literally everything. From the beginning of this whole stupid story line Nazi Cap was portrayed as a "bad thing," and the story is going to end with him losing. It doesn't get more anti-Nazi than that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 22:43
|
|
|
fadam posted:I have, and I still don't get it. Because of several reasons. It seems to be making GBS threads on the core concepts and ideals behind captain america as well as the original creators intentions of the character. It pushes some really questionable referencing that has people concerned (see capt with mjollnir, the whole nazis actually won ww2 backstory). The writer in charge has some really questionable personal views in relation to the topic. (i.e. his racism) It's at a really lovely time politically, where actual fascism and racism is taking a front and center stage. frodnonnag fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Apr 25, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 22:45
|
|
|
Aphrodite posted:Like the Punisher. And Rorschach, I suppose. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 22:45
|
|
|
Speaking of Nick Spencer being an idiot: https://twitter.com/stichomancery/status/856860840091410432
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 22:48
|
|
|
frodnonnag posted:Because of several reasons. 1. It's not really. Even if it wasn't an obviously totally temporary thing, didn't reality have to get totally rewritten for him to turn into a Nazi? 2. I thought it was the other universe bad mjollnir that you can only hold if you're an rear end in a top hat? 3. Yes, Spencer is a loving idiot. 4. The facists and racists literally lose. I agree the event is probably going to be a gigantic lovely waste of time, I just think all the pearl clutching is pretty dumb.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 22:49
|
|
|
frodnonnag posted:Because of several reasons. And also because Spencer hasn't thought a loving thing through, the retcon makes Captain America complicit in the Holocaust which is also profoundly not ok.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 22:50
|
|
|
i've been pretty cool with hydra cap so far, and most of the criticisms have gone past me... but that heroic-looking mjolnir image has me reeeeally thinking uhhh... yeah i don't know.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 22:50
|
|
|
Is this big news in America? Has it been in big newspapers and on news channels? How widely has the non-comic news covered it? I know big things like this sometimes get a little attention from the mainstream outlets.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 22:53
|
|
|
Wheat Loaf posted:Is this big news in America? Has it been in big newspapers and on news channels? How widely has the news covered it? Here in Canada, the only people I see talking about it are people bitching about it. I've yet to see any actual news coverage from normie sites, though.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 22:54
|
|
|
Wheat Loaf posted:Is this big news in America? Has it been in big newspapers and on news channels? How widely has the non-comic news covered it? I know big things like this sometimes get a little attention from the mainstream outlets. There was a big social media uproar in response to the initial Hydra Cap reveal that extended beyond the normal comic readers, but I don't know if mainstream media ever picked it up. The continuing story doesn't seem to be making as much of a splash.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 22:57
|
|
|
Nope nazis have never twisted a symbol and made it irredeemable.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 23:14
|
|
|
fadam posted:Maybe I'm missing something because I haven't read SE#0 yet, but considering the entire story arc is like 99% guaranteed to end with the Nazis losing I'm having a hard time understanding why people are finding it so objectionable. 2) This is during a time in the world where antisemitic rhetoric is seeing a startling resurgence -- or maybe just coming back into the light again after hiding away for a bit -- and Holocaust denialism, vandalism of public Jewish spaces, and outright physical violence being more and more common occurrences. 3) Readers in general have been consistently burned by Marvel's consistently tone-deaf depictions of moral or social narratives throughout their events (Civil War: police states are great!) (Civil War II: police states are great!) (IvX: Cyclops is loving HITLER). Jewish readers, in particular, have good reason to not to trust Marvel to be respectful and tactful of their issues. Any such complaints or concerns have been responded to with derision or misunderstanding on Spencer's part, which only makes people angrier and more wary. (Maybe as a self-fulfilling prophecy, if you like) 4) Indeed, Marvel and Spencer's go-to insistence that Hydra are totally not Nazis at all and you're just being nitpicky if you say they're Nazis just further makes them come across as tone-deaf and bullish on the matter, on top of (probably unknowingly) mirroring the talking points of actual real life Nazis who've been trying to rebrand themselves as something different for years. 5) "I don’t care if this gets undone next year, next month, next week. I know it’s clickbait disguised as storytelling. I am not angry because omg how dare you ruin Steve Rogers forever. I am angry because how dare you use eleven million deaths as clickbait." 6) Spencer's work with Sam Wilson Captain America, which generally turns him into a centrist apologist who couldn't believe that he himself was ever that much of an annoying liberal activist or something and occasionally fights literal "social justice warriors" on college campuses throwing bombs and internet slang, doesn't really make that fanbase particularly fond of him. 7) In a world where an X-Men artist is literally sneaking secret antisemitic propaganda into books that are supposed to celebrate diversity and civil activism, can you really blame people for being antsy about a comic book that reveals Captain America was a secret Nazi all along and is making Stormfront cream themselves.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 23:55
|
|
|
The thing is that Nazis, racists, and general fascists are very good at finding symbols, even if they have to warp the original work's meaning beyond recognition. As fadam points out, a casual perusal of the Stormfront message board is enough to show that. I used to have a thread bookmarked on there that deliberately reimagined World of Warcraft as an anti-multicultural war against the evils of miscegenation, which requires the reader to voluntarily ignore truly broad swaths of the text. Internet Nazis have become very good at alternate reinterpretations, and not doing things because you're worried the Nazis will pick it up and use it as a symbol is a good way to argue against not doing anything. It's a bit like not publishing your novel because you're worried about the "rule 34" reaction. You can't police that. All you can do is try to avoid it and laugh it off when it happens. The audience reaction is entirely out of the creator's hands. You can accuse the Secret Empire plot of a lot of things; it's tone-deaf, you can poke holes in its plot all day (although many of them can be justified neatly, as the reality warp is a historical edit carried out with a dull axe by an angry child), it's pretty clearly in bad taste (although Steve's version of HYDRA is more theoretically benevolent than the Skull's), and it couldn't have started at a worse time. Being worried about the Internet Nazis' reaction, however, is a step too far, because as has already been noted, the story is almost certainly going to end with a resounding defeat and a reaffirmation of Steve Rogers as a saintly FDR-style Democrat. If they start picking up Secret Empire on the basis that it's supporting them, they're almost certainly going to be upset with how it ends. BrianWilly posted:7) In a world where an X-Men artist is literally sneaking secret antisemitic propaganda into books that are supposed to celebrate diversity and civil activism, can you really blame people for being antsy about a comic book that reveals Captain America was a secret Nazi all along and is making Stormfront cream themselves. To be fair, it's expressly not "all along." Wanderer fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Apr 26, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2017 23:55
|
|
|
Just because Nazis will co-opt anything they can get their hands on doesn't mean you have to go out of your way to give them want they want.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2017 00:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 08:20 |
|
|
Nazis aren't having to warp the meaning. Marvel have made their meaning entirely clear both in the comics and interviews and it's that Captain America is and always has been a Nazi (technically Hydra but that's like saying fascists that love Hitler aren't technically Nazis). The symbol of American perseverance, created by two Jewish guys who took a bold early stance against Hitler a year before America entered the war has been turned into a fascist. Add in the tone deaf poo poo like Marvel encouraging and rewarding people who dress as Nazis and the whole thing is a loving clusterfuck. Edit: According to the writers, the truth is that Captain America was always a Nazi and that the allies used a cosmic cube to rewrite history so he wasn't and they won. And somehow left in the holocaust... So yes, their new version is that he has always been a Nazi. Just read the comics or google it given there are dozens of places this is discussed including this thread. PST fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Apr 26, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2017 00:13
|
|