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angel opportunity posted:It's become a pet peeve of mine the way Chinese people talk about "国“ specifically meaning "China." If you use words like 我国 and 老家 as a non-Chinese foreigner it makes many Chinese people do a double take while they work out what you mean since those words intrinsically mean "China" and "a place in China" to most people.
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Apr 27, 2017 01:03
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It's also fun to hear them talk about people from Taiwan. Usually they are 台湾人, because they want to make it immediately clear that it's not a "normal Chinese person," it's one from "Taiwan province." If they really wanted to make a face-saving point about it to me, they would potentially call them 中国人, but I'm usually just overhearing how they talk to each other about it, which is an immediate 台湾人 so they can all know that it's not really someone in their bubble. People from Taiwan and people from China rarely co-mingle here. They have their separate groups and I've seriously never seen a group of mixed Chinese/Taiwan friends. They hold their own separate New Year's events, etc. I would hazard a guess that it's because the Chinese people are probably dicks to the people from Taiwan. This is also why you get an immediate 台湾人 when talking about a person from Taiwan who is being brought up in a conversation, as they all realize within their actual functioning brains that it's totally and wildly different from being from China, but they have to still have "correct speech" and not insinuate at all that it's a different country. I haven't heard Chinese and Taiwan people talk to each other enough, but it would be fun to hear the Chinese people pull the 国内 poo poo and see how visibly uncomfortable the people from Taiwan probably get about it. Pointing to their ASUS laptop (Company in Taiwan) "Oh nice, you have a 国内 computer." "No...it's actually from Taiwan...?"
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Apr 27, 2017 01:03
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Magna Kaser posted:If you use words like 我国 and 老家 as a non-Chinese foreigner it makes many Chinese people do a double take while they work out what you mean since those words intrinsically mean "China" and "a place in China" to most people. I can't stand 我国. I think I read an essay once by an African guy and he kept using it, but he had to make a huge paragraph immediately up front introducing his country so he could use it with the meaning he wanted. I think what annoys me so much about this is basically like...it assumes that your language and culture are homogenous and no foreign person will ever use it. It creates words, just like you have mentioned, that you can't just use as words. These are words that are attached to your ethnicity and nationality, which is loving stupid. You basically have to avoid using a lot of these words as it creates too annoying a situation. I think next time I'm talking to Chinese people I'm intentionally going to use 外国 to mean "outside of the US" and 国内 to mean "Within the US," just to be a dick
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Apr 27, 2017 01:09
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I ran the Shanghai marathon a few years ago. In the recovery area just past the finishing line, where you normally get your medal and stagger around half-dead looking for a bottle of water, there were several dudes who, having just run 26 miles, were frantically lighting up and huffing their nicotine fix.
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Apr 27, 2017 01:39
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Hi I'm Taiwanese American and can say that my parents actually do refer to 国内 as Taiwan. They also use 台湾 to refer as Taiwan. They also use 国家 to refer to the US, but have already been in the US for a very long time and are retired.
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Apr 27, 2017 01:37
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Magna Kaser posted:Zhou Youguang, the dude who lead the team that developed Pinyin, goes into this in his very good book on the history of the Chinese language. IIRC (it's been a while since I read it) said they tried a lot of things like going back to invented glyphs like zhuyin fuhao and even making their own entirely new set of symbols. However, at the end of the day because Pinyin was a system for pronunciation to help Chinese people pronounce Chinese, and not intended to explicitly be a learning tool for non-Chinese speakers, a way to replace characters entirely, or (at the time) even a romanization system, they used Latin characters because they were already made, time-tested and ubiquitous. The romanization thing happened almost immediately after it was developed but wasn't really one of their mission statements. This is just so bizarre to me, because it basically means Pinyin has more in common with Japanese katakana than romaji, in terms of what it's designed to accomplish. The rationale for using existing foreign characters because they're time-tested and ubiquitous would only really be valid if they didn't jumble up the commonly associated sounds. With the way Pinyin uses letters, it's basically just a code to be memorized. You could write down a "q", or you draw a drat square for all it matters. Either way you will have to first learn what that symbol sounds like, because there's no prior knowledge or intuition to rely on. Hell, another issue just occurred to me: Pinyin doesn't properly account for unaspirated consonants. Instead it uses the voiced counterparts to represent them (i.e. "g" for unaspirated "k"). Pretty obviously another casualty of going with an alphabet that doesn't have ways to explicitly distinguish these sounds. All in all, I maintain that Pinyin is a lovely system that sows confusion by design, and only does what it needs to do in spite of itself because it was pushed by the PRC. It's more or less logically consistent, but that isn't a big accomplishment. In China they should just use Bopomofo, or something similar, for convenience among native speakers, and Mandarin-teaching programs in the west should use some form of sane Romanization like the one from Yale that Magna Kaser mentioned a couple posts ago. I'll stop here with the Pinyin rant since it's probably boring as gently caress to 99% of the people in this thread.
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Apr 27, 2017 01:39
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Oh, and 大陸 refers to Chinrar. Except if you need to make it clear, then you can use 中國大陸.
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Apr 27, 2017 01:41
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Known Lecher posted:I ran the Shanghai marathon a few years ago. In the recovery area just past the finishing line, where you normally get your medal and stagger around half-dead looking for a bottle of water, there were several dudes who, having just run 26 miles, were frantically lighting up and huffing their nicotine fix. dont forget last year when English language packaged soaps were given out and people thought it was food http://www.theweek.co.uk/71003/chinese-marathon-runners-mistake-free-soap-for-energy-bars
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Apr 27, 2017 01:57
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the marathon with chinese characteristics line made me lol
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Apr 27, 2017 01:59
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Devils Affricate posted:This is just so bizarre to me, because it basically means Pinyin has more in common with Japanese katakana than romaji, in terms of what it's designed to accomplish. The rationale for using existing foreign characters because they're time-tested and ubiquitous would only really be valid if they didn't jumble up the commonly associated sounds. With the way Pinyin uses letters, it's basically just a code to be memorized. You could write down a "q", or you draw a drat square for all it matters. Either way you will have to first learn what that symbol sounds like, because there's no prior knowledge or intuition to rely on. I actually opened up the book this morning and there's a small section called "Issues with c/q/x" and his explanation is basically "This is weird for non-Chinese speakers, and most other systems use mult-letter things for this, but we wanted simplicity so we did it anyway!" so it's more listed as a "known issue" than anything which was kinda funny to find. We do have a Chinese Language Thread you're welcome to post more in. I'm sure angel opportunity, I and the other language nerds would be fine keeping this topic going.
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Apr 27, 2017 02:00
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ntan1 posted:Oh, and 大陸 refers to Chinrar. Except if you need to make it clear, then you can use 中國大陸. Do you know if your parents would avoid saying 國內 when talking to people from China, or have you ever heard a confusing thing happen with this word when your parents were talking to people from China? I find myself stuck saying 大陸 when I'm in a "mixed" group, but if I'm only with people from Taiwan I will just say 中國 to refer to the PRC
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Apr 27, 2017 02:01
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i enjoy the language talk as a failed mandarin learner
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Apr 27, 2017 02:05
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Fauxtool posted:dont forget last year when English language packaged soaps were given out and people thought it was food me chinese. me play joke. me feed distance runners soap.
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Apr 27, 2017 02:05
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Devils Affricate posted:This is just so bizarre to me, because it basically means Pinyin has more in common with Japanese katakana than romaji, in terms of what it's designed to accomplish. The rationale for using existing foreign characters because they're time-tested and ubiquitous would only really be valid if they didn't jumble up the commonly associated sounds. With the way Pinyin uses letters, it's basically just a code to be memorized. You could write down a "q", or you draw a drat square for all it matters. Either way you will have to first learn what that symbol sounds like, because there's no prior knowledge or intuition to rely on. The solution is of course for everyone to use 注音
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Apr 27, 2017 02:12
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Magna Kaser posted:I actually opened up the book this morning and there's a small section called "Issues with c/q/x" and his explanation is basically "This is weird for non-Chinese speakers, and most other systems use mult-letter things for this, but we wanted simplicity so we did it anyway!" so it's more listed as a "known issue" than anything which was kinda funny to find. Interesting, and thanks for all the explanations. I'll take a look at that thread when I have some time. On the topic of Taiwan and all the passive-aggressive, face-saving language slights the mainlanders like throw out against them, the one thing that legitimately bothers me is how the PRC managed to convince so much of the rest of world to officially support a One-China Policy and refer to the country as "Chinese Taipei". It's gotta feel pretty lovely to stand up on a podium and accept your Olympic gold medal in your country's deliberately misrepresented name. It's so petty and stupid, but everyone goes along with it because they know China will throw a goddamn pissbaby tantrum otherwise.
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Apr 27, 2017 02:16
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Devils Affricate posted:Interesting, and thanks for all the explanations. I'll take a look at that thread when I have some time. They are just desperate to avoid hearing Taiwan Number 1
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Apr 27, 2017 02:18
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angel opportunity posted:Do you know if your parents would avoid saying 國內 when talking to people from China, or have you ever heard a confusing thing happen with this word when your parents were talking to people from China? The whole awkward Mainland Chinese thing happens to old people as well. They dont really mix very well with mainland Chinese people as much, predominantly because: 1) Mainland Chinese immigrants to the US tend to come from a more recent generation on average, and are 'dirtier' etc. 2) Large Taiwanese immigration to the US was probably a thing around a particular point on time in the 1980s to early 1990s. After that, it became mostly mainland chinese. For everybody else worth talking to, nobody really gives a gently caress about the whole Taiwan/China thing because all of them moved to the US anyway (and the US is better anyway). They just dont use 國內 and instead just use Taiwan. 大陸 always is used no matter what for China (and I do this myself) ntan1 fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 02:18
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Devils Affricate posted:Interesting, and thanks for all the explanations. I'll take a look at that thread when I have some time. Sometimes China will translate it differently than Taiwan does, too--中國台北 as opposed to 中華台北 to reflect a more explicit claim of "Taiwan is a Chinese province" while in Taiwan it's more like "Taiwan is a country with Chinese culture and languages." People here do hate it though.
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Apr 27, 2017 02:54
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Fauxtool posted:dont forget last year when English language packaged soaps were given out and people thought it was food I tried to take a butane lighter and a can of butane through Guangzhou airport once, the chinese TSA wouldn't let me take the lighter on but couldn't figure out what the butane was and let me keep it. Some time later I tried to take a bottle of Frank's Red Hot in my carry-on and they wouldn't let me. An old Chinese lady gave me a look of genuine sympathy. I think she knew that for me, it must be something special and delicious.
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Apr 27, 2017 03:02
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angel opportunity posted:I would hazard a guess that it's because the Chinese people are probably dicks to the people from Taiwan. Given how mainlanders are in Chinese student organizations in the US, I'd say you're right. angel opportunity posted:Pointing to their ASUS laptop (Company in Taiwan) "Oh nice, you have a 国内 computer." I've literally had this conversation back when I had an ASUS. "Wow, you bought a Chinese computer!" "No, ASUS is Taiwanese."
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Apr 27, 2017 03:18
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hakimashou posted:Some time later I tried to take a bottle of Frank's Red Hot in my carry-on and they wouldn't let me. Have you not flown on a plane before? Or have you not flown since September 2006? Pretty much any liquid container over 100ml is banned from carry on, unless purchased within the terminal, past the security check-in.
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Apr 27, 2017 03:38
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Devils Affricate posted:For ci/si/zi/shi/chi/zhi it makes a completely different vowel sound, one that is never represented with "i" in a Western language. It's not a million miles away from some uses in French (e.g Belgian adventure boy "Tintin").
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Apr 27, 2017 03:46
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LimburgLimbo posted:The solution is of course for everyone to use 注音 Grand Fromage posted:I've literally had this conversation back when I had an ASUS. "Wow, you bought a Chinese computer!" "No, ASUS is Taiwanese."  What kind of phone is that?? An HTC One. ... It's a Taiwanese company! Why don't you have an iPhone? I... wanted one of these instead, I guess. [high levels of confusion]
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Apr 27, 2017 03:53
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Blistex posted:Have you not flown on a plane before? Or have you not flown since September 2006? This was the same airport I'd taken a full can of butane through security on just a few months before. It was a flight from one part of China to another.
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Apr 27, 2017 03:53
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http://i.imgur.com/4ZNEdWn.gifv Yesterday I saw a guy playing games on his phone while walking on a crowded sidewalk. He veered for no reason and a girl on a bike almost crashed into him, and she shouted "HEI" at him to get his attention. He kept walking another 4-5 meters. Stopped. Looked around in front of him. Turned around to see who had shouted at him (she was long gone by then). Made a very confused squinty angry face. Then started playing games again. No headphones in or anything, so he definitely heard her shout and didn't want to react at all. I hope to see him in one of these videos soon.
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Apr 27, 2017 04:19
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If I stop to help i might be liable. If I go back and kill the child it will cost less. - Things a chinese person thinks when in an accident
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Apr 27, 2017 04:25
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Devils Affricate posted:Personally I'd be all for it. However while IPA is a near-perfect system on a technical level, people who are new to linguistics tend to find it a bit kənfyuzɪŋ. both are made in China for taiwanese masters who would sell out the island for a dollar fifty so w/e
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Apr 27, 2017 04:34
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im the second car that briefly slows down when they see the kid on the road in front of them but decides they're committed and speeds back up
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Apr 27, 2017 04:37
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a long time ago i remember having a class with a bunch of mainland people and one taiwanese person, and the mainland people would always feel the need to toss a reminder into every conversation with her about how taiwan was part of china i feel like there should be a similar policy in which americans find a way to constantly remind china that they are america's bitch this includes the next olympic games announcing the team as "USA-Owned China"
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Apr 27, 2017 05:30
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hakimashou posted:This was the same airport I'd taken a full can of butane through security on just a few months before. It was a flight from one part of China to another. Ok, that makes sense. I figured when you said "Franks" that you were on a flight to China from a country it's commonly sold in.
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Apr 27, 2017 05:53
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LentThem posted:a long time ago i remember having a class with a bunch of mainland people and one taiwanese person, and the mainland people would always feel the need to toss a reminder into every conversation with her about how taiwan was part of china "Inferior Japan"
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Apr 27, 2017 06:23
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Dr.Radical posted:Haeir needs to make friends with this guy I legit want Haier to be friends with English Teacher X (but like fifteen years ago). Pirate Radar posted:And not the movie with the whales, since IIRC the only fighting there is between Spock and some punk on a bus. Well, someone called Kirk a dumbass and he yells "DOUBLE DUMBASS ON YOU!" which made me laugh until I peed a little bit. Such an 
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Apr 27, 2017 06:26
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Going back to pinyin chat briefly, my wife teaches Chinese in a tri-lingual international school in Bangkok. They spend half the day in English and half the day in Chinese and they take a mandatory Thai language class as well, but since the majority of the students are Thai a lot of Thai language gets used throughout the day as well. According to my wife, the students don't have an issue learning pinyin alongside the English alphabet. You have to remember how awful English spelling is and so having a separate set of actually consistent rules for the same symbols doesn't gently caress with them like you'd assume. Children have really flexible brains when it comes to this kind of stuff. They're also doing this at the same time they're learning characters and naturally prefer pinyin to those. But apparently the hardest writing system they learn is actually Thai despite it being the native language for most of the students. Thai is just an awful, awful writing system. Saying that Chinese people who learned pinyin to pronounce Chinese sounds would struggle to learn English is like saying that English speakers would struggle to learn Spanish or French because there's not a 100% overlap between the sounds and the letters. Yes, people will make mistakes and there might be some initial confusion, but a good teacher will help avoid those problems. In language learning it's called "language interference" and manifests in all sorts of forms, from grammar to pronunciation and every other aspect of the target and native languages. But you're going to have all the same pronunciation problems in a first or second semester French class as you would in a first or second Chinese class. The underlying point is that pinyin does not exist as a tool for non-Chinese speakers to pronounce Chinese and as such the symbols it chooses to use are completely arbitrary. You learn the rule and you follow it regardless of if there might have been a better way. It will cause people to mispronounce it if they don't know the rules, but that's true if a native English speaker who knows nothing about German tries to read German. And if you show someone Hs or the various diphthongs from Wade-Giles, I don't think they're going to be any closer to saying it correctly. The number of ways I've heard "Kaohsiung" pronounced is proof positive of that. As far as "time tested and ubiquitous" goes, that to me just says "we can use existing printing tile sets with minimal modification". And it ended up being wise in the long run as well since the vast majority of keyboards globally have the roman alphabet on them. So if you know pinyin it's super easy to switch between keyboards used just about anywhere in the world.
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Apr 27, 2017 07:42
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Blistex posted:Ok, that makes sense. I figured when you said "Franks" that you were on a flight to China from a country it's commonly sold in. I got it in HK I think and was taking it back to Inner Bumfuck-zhou.
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Apr 27, 2017 07:58
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https://my.mixtape.moe/rmmbni.mp4
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Apr 27, 2017 08:03
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Temporary workers, eh?
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Apr 27, 2017 08:07
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Fauxtool posted:If I stop to help i might be liable. If I go back and kill the child it will cost less. - Things a chinese person thinks when in an accident at least this person stopped https://zippy.gfycat.com/HelpfulRashGallowaycow.webm
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Apr 27, 2017 08:18
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Is Poorly Made in China available in Chinese language? Chaoshan girl has been really upset about how she is constantly being treated by factories (especially the great sample - poo poo product problem), since Chaoshan only deal with other Chaoshan people. She's a middleman and is finding out how bad it is to do business in China and says she hates China and Chinese people more than any other people she has met. I haven't read the book, but apparently many parts are about factories run by Chaoshan people, and everything she complains about is the same thing any foreigner is going to complain about. Anyway, she wants to read the book but hopes there is a Chinese version. Her English is better than most people here, but she knows English business terminology is going to get confusing. Since she's still a young blood in the industry (she's a 23 year old kid), she had no idea at all that this is how they operate here, and is just as shocked and embarrassed as any foreigner would be. It's even worse for her as a middleman, since she had to lose profits sometimes because she is honest and doesn't want her business tarnished. She even returned money recently because she thought a customer gave her too much. She's absolutely unfit for doing business in China. Just today she was complaining how one of the factories gave great samples, so the customer ordered. The product was different and useless (electronic components in casings). The factory boss decided to change the type of plastic used without telling anyone, and his excuse was he thought it looked better, and doesn't understand why the customer was upset that the components 1) don't fit, and 2) have been flooded with plastic and don't even work. He refused to take responsibility or pay for making up the garbage that he made, so obviously the foreign customer is angry, she is angry, and there's nothing either of them can do about it. Just last month she told me about an order of parts she made where the factory decided to use some old screws that didn't fit. She had to bring them back (10k pieces) and they said they would just cut the screws so the parts could fit inside the housing made for them. They cut all the screws, but didn't follow any sort of system, and most of the parts still wouldn't fit. The customer said gently caress it, and that they would do it at home in their country so they wouldn't have to deal with Chinese any more. Fleta Mcgurn posted:I legit want Haier to be friends with English Teacher X (but like fifteen years ago). Haier fucked around with this message at 08:40 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 08:37
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chinese_economy_structuralreforms.mp4
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Apr 27, 2017 08:38
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Just call Taiwan Formosa and gently caress with everyones head.
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Apr 27, 2017 09:04
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