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Plorkyeran posted:No, but fixating on what to call your tests is dumb and a waste of time. Are you loving serious? You don't think it's important to break up a large concept into smaller, more manageable pieces, and then giving those pieces a name so that everyone can have a shared vocabulary? Have any of you test haters ever actually worked on a large or complicated project, or on an old piece of software that was built cowboy style without tests or useful comments? Like I'm glad your little toy todo list projects are fine without unit or integration testing, but that's not a sustainable method of writing code once you move beyond that.
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Apr 26, 2017 00:46
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camoseven posted:Are you loving serious? You don't think it's important to break up a large concept into smaller, more manageable pieces, and then giving those pieces a name so that everyone can have a shared vocabulary? i think what they were saying is that the line between unit/integration/regression/validation/sanity/end-to-end/canary/one-box testing can get p murky at times, so spending a bunch of time arguing about what particular box a test goes in is not nearly as worthwhile as writing those tests.
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Apr 26, 2017 00:56
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FamDav posted:i think what they were saying is that the line between unit/integration/regression/validation/sanity/end-to-end/canary/one-box testing can get p murky at times, so spending a bunch of time arguing about what particular box a test goes in is not nearly as worthwhile as writing those tests. Not just that it's murky but that the terms have been misused so much that they've basically lost all meaning. It would be nice if I could talk to a random developer and trust that when they say "unit test" they aren't describing what I would call an "end-to-end integration test", but that isn't the world we live in and you can either accept that or you can derail lots of conversations with ultimately pointless arguments about terminology rather than the actually important topic of how do you write software without bad bugs.
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Apr 26, 2017 01:35
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Jose Valasquez posted:If you don't see the value in the next person (forgive the earlier colloquialism) being able to verify that their changes didn't break existing functionality I don't know what to tell you In short: Plorkyeran posted:Unit tests are not always the correct form of automated tests. Some form of automated tests is always correct, though. Munkeymon posted:Even specifying a 403 over "and it broke" is manual QA gold. If she can replicate the terminology used in the spec (stop laughing some places have them) it's platinum level.
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Apr 26, 2017 01:39
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Integration tests that pound on the database are the best. Let's be honest, 99% of what we do is CRUD nonsense, so unit testing your phone number parsing routine isn't as valuable as a bunch of tests that actually verify the system works the whole way through. I don't care if it takes 20 minutes to run on the CI server; I'll just go grab a coffee and feel good that my changes didn't break anything.
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Apr 26, 2017 01:44
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JawnV6 posted:If you can't see your unstated assumption that "UNIT TEST" is the only possible way to achieve this verification you keep stuffing in without admitting it, I don't know what to tell you. Integration tests, UAT, full-on technical QA, these all provide the same verification and there's nothing special about the word "unit" that means "dev can run test locally" that doesn't apply to every one of those others. Nobody is arguing that unit tests are the only way to test. They are still an important way to test though
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Apr 26, 2017 01:59
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Jose Valasquez posted:Nobody is arguing that unit tests are the only way to test. They are still an important way to test though I'm not sure what we are arguing about. I just said I didn't enjoy it myself, and that instantly turned into accusations of heresy.
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Apr 26, 2017 05:33
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B-Nasty posted:Integration tests that pound on the database are the best. Let's be honest, 99% of what we do is CRUD nonsense, so unit testing your phone number parsing routine isn't as valuable as a bunch of tests that actually verify the system works the whole way through. 
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Apr 26, 2017 06:49
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I like unit tests except when I make a little change and 30 of them fail. Not because what I did was wrong, but because how I did it was a little different. Also maintaining and/or adding to other peoples unit test tends to be more difficult than maintaining and/or adding to the "actual" code being tested. Unit-tests are essential when working on a big-old system. But to me they are almost always the least interesting part of the day-to-day development process. Jarl fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Apr 26, 2017 |
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Apr 26, 2017 13:50
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Having just completed a college course and will be starting my first junior .Net web developer position next week, I never learned or used unit testing before. I think I get the basic idea of how to write tests but not sure how the automation part works. Can anyone point me to a decent tutorial?
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Apr 26, 2017 18:51
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Ornithology posted:Having just completed a college course and will be starting my first junior .Net web developer position next week, I never learned or used unit testing before. I think I get the basic idea of how to write tests but not sure how the automation part works. Can anyone point me to a decent tutorial? Get paid to learn it next week.
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Apr 26, 2017 19:00
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huhu posted:Get paid to learn it next week. This. While the theory is similar, there's no point in learning with one unit testing library and finding out ~1 week later that your work does it using a completely different library.
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Apr 26, 2017 21:08
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huhu posted:Get paid to learn it next week. Been manually testing my company's apps for 5 months. I don't think anyone's gonna teach me unit testing at this point.
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Apr 26, 2017 23:09
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Grump posted:Been manually testing my company's apps for 5 months. I don't think anyone's gonna teach me unit testing at this point. The most I have seen is being told something I'd dumb or wrong and what to do instead never actual sit down teaching things. You read up on your own and get it done typically. Then you get critiqued. Maybe.
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Apr 26, 2017 23:27
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JawnV6 posted:Right, the superset of two incomplete answers in my hypothetical tradeoff would be better? But it's easier to blow off "this goofy request that Somehow Exists broke ur code" than "using the app Just Like A User made it break" no matter how much technical specification the first comes with if it's not clear how it's generated without wireshark. Yeah, and there'd probably be some steps before that, too, because maybe she found the URL in browser history but it's part of a multi-step wizard that you're not supposed to go straight to and not getting redirected to the beginning is the actual bug. And hopefully they present the testers with enough information to identify exactly which commit they're testing because that goes in the repro, too. I was just at a place that had six different versions running in parallel at all times and sometimes you had to guess and check which one they meant because they were in India so that'd be faster than waiting for an answer.
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Apr 27, 2017 02:00
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Today I interviewed with LanchCode and it went very well. Since I don't have a CS degree or a lot of formal training in the field (and no industry experience) it seems like a cool opportunity; they'll help place me in a paid apprenticeship with a local company which will likely turn into a full hire. But I don't know yet which company I'd be placed with. So without knowing much of the details, I wanted to ask -- anything I should expect or look out for? It sounds most likely that I would be placed in a QA or dev role. I'm not even sure what I'd be working with really, as I showed off some Python and Ruby code (and NetLogo!) but I said I'd be open to learning other languages and such. Thanks for any advice!
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Apr 27, 2017 07:05
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:Today I interviewed with LanchCode and it went very well. Since I don't have a CS degree or a lot of formal training in the field (and no industry experience) it seems like a cool opportunity; they'll help place me in a paid apprenticeship with a local company which will likely turn into a full hire. But I don't know yet which company I'd be placed with. QA and dev are different career tracks. If you want to be a developer and you can program, stick to that -- don't let someone talk you into something like "taking a QA role for now to boost your resume" or some similar line.
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Apr 27, 2017 08:54
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fantastic in plastic posted:QA and dev are different career tracks. If you want to be a developer and you can program, stick to that -- don't let someone talk you into something like "taking a QA role for now to boost your resume" or some similar line. Yeah that's a good point. I would honestly be happy to take a job in either field at this point but I would rather develop.
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Apr 27, 2017 13:27
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:Yeah that's a good point. I would honestly be happy to take a job in either field at this point but I would rather develop. Sure, it's understandable to think that any paycheck's better than none. What I'm hoping to warn you about is that I've seen people apply that logic, do QA for a year, and then find out that they're pigeonholed in it when they try to change roles later on. Hiring managers will see QA experience, not "guy who could do either QA or development but chose to do QA" experience. It's a wider gulf between QA and dev than it is between two devs who happen to know different stacks. e: And that's not to imply QA's a bad thing, if that's what you'd be happy doing. It's just to say that this is a significant choice.
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Apr 27, 2017 13:46
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fantastic in plastic posted:e: And that's not to imply QA's a bad thing, if that's what you'd be happy doing. It's just to say that this is a significant choice. QA's not a bad thing and good QAs are gold and everyone should respect their coworkers buuuuuut it's pretty common culture to treat QA poorly. You will be told to do all your testing in the next 12 hours because it's a hard ship-date (even though the devs slipped the ship date by months). Then when bugs are found in the wild, everyone loudly wonders how they got past QA. Lots of off-shoring of QA even after it got less fashionable to do that to developers. The positive side is that it seems easier to rise through the ranks to management if you've got the right personality for that.
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Apr 27, 2017 16:16
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A general question out of curiosity more than anything else... About how many people get an interview (passing first phone screen or whatever) for each dev job at the "big guys" in the industry (Google, Facebook, etc.)?
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Apr 27, 2017 16:49
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Warning, this is a vent post. Why is it loving IMPOSSIBLE to get a job in this industry? 300+ applications in 30+ hours on coding challenges a bunch of interviews and... only rejections to show for it. Like I get it, I'm not gonna get hired on as a loving senior devops, but your stupid position is for a junior developer, with 0-2 years experience, and you feed me the loving line that you're "looking for someone with more experience"? Like gently caress you, I jumped through your loving hoops, I aced the ridiculous coding challenge and you liked it enough to have me do your technical interview, and you're gonna brush me off with "not enough experience"? Like I'm not expecting you to tell me if I sucked, but some actual concrete feedback would be loving helpful. That's without getting into the bullshit stuff that is "oh, sorry I'm just not going to show up for your scheduled phone interview", "so its not mentioned anywhere on the position, but we really want you to be a master of *obscure javascript framework that's been obsolete for two years*", "Oh, ok, the next portion requires you to solve mazes using A*, you have 15 minutes" Like gently caress this poo poo, all I want is a chance to sit at a cubicle and code. I'll jump through bizzare hoops to get there. I'll answer the stupid behavioral questions about if I'm more of a creative person or a logical person, and I'll loving solve your timed algorithms, but I'm sick of the constant "we want more experience", what a loving cop out. I've built real apps, I can talk your ear off about scrum, I get design patterns, WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME? ARGH.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:31
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Are you sure that your personality isn't off-putting? No one will tell you that when it's the reason for your rejection because lawsuits.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:41
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Mniot posted:QA's not a bad thing and good QAs are gold and everyone should respect their coworkers buuuuuut it's pretty common culture to treat QA poorly. I get the impression that QA has changed a lot in recent years. It used to be, in the words of an older coworker, "where you put coders who couldn't code." These days, most QA I've known have also been formidable coders and systems analysts. (One even tutored me in a robotics course I was taking.) But the reputation remains.
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Apr 27, 2017 18:48
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New Yorp New Yorp posted:Are you sure that your personality isn't off-putting? No one will tell you that when it's the reason for your rejection because lawsuits. Honestly, this. I was lucky enough to get feedback from an employer saying I wasn't enthusiastic enough which was basically my frustration with my 500ish job rejections bleeding through into each interview. I then started focusing on being more positive during interviews again and I got a job a few weeks later.
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Apr 27, 2017 19:38
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JawnV6 posted:
Don't be intentionally obtuse, you knew what was meant and intended.
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Apr 27, 2017 19:48
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I might be missing something, but how come this job posting starts with the line "Hello -_-v."?https://lookback.io/jobs/full-stack-web-developer/ Also, I'm in the Boston area. The typical compensation for mid-level software engineers here is $100~$120k, from my research. Does this mean that it's not particularly worth it to go for remote jobs that offer like, $50~70k? Is there no wiggle room on that? Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 20:23
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Pollyanna posted:I might be missing something, but how come this job posting starts with the line "Hello -_-v."?https://lookback.io/jobs/full-stack-web-developer/ I think it's a Spock emoticon? E: what's worth it is mostly up to you. If you can live comfortably at that range and think you'll like the job, then go for it. Maybe they'll play ball and negotiate and maybe you'll get some interviewing experience but no job. One thing to remember is that your current compensation doesn't have to determine your future compensation as long as you're canny, so taking a lower paying job that you think you'd like doesn't necessarily mean you won't be able to make a big jump out of it. Munkeymon fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 20:47
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Munkeymon posted:I think it's a Spock emoticon? Fair enough. I thought it was some sorta <INSERT NAME HERE> thing and was gonna link it to point and laugh.  EDIT: Does this bring up as much red flags for anyone else as it does for me? Putting your company up there and then just blanking everything out with WE'RE STEALTH  seems...dubious.
Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 20:54
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Pollyanna posted:Fair enough. I thought it was some sorta <INSERT NAME HERE> thing and was gonna link it to point and laugh. At the very least, they are a little too full of themselves.
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Apr 27, 2017 22:02
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Skandranon posted:At the very least, they are a little too full of themselves. Yeah, I remember a company that was whinging about being really really stealth when I was interviewing years back. I don't think they ever got off the ground. Also I still want to try working at the MBTA especially cause they're doing Elixir+Phoenix work. I applied to a job there, so fingers crossed!
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Apr 27, 2017 22:50
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fantastic in plastic posted:Why bother to test anything? Just throw it over the wall to QA or ops. Isn't that what those people get paid for?
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Apr 28, 2017 00:02
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Pollyanna posted:I might be missing something, but how come this job posting starts with the line "Hello -_-v."?https://lookback.io/jobs/full-stack-web-developer/ I saw that listing a few minutes ago and thought it was pretty weird to put in your job listing.
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Apr 28, 2017 00:47
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Iverron posted:I saw that listing a few minutes ago and thought it was pretty weird to put in your job listing. they're trying to appear young, hip, and meme friendly
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Apr 28, 2017 00:48
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Gildiss posted:The most I have seen is being told something I'd dumb or wrong and what to do instead never actual sit down teaching things. If you can't say, "hey, I've never worked with this before, can I get an hour with somebody to go over the basics?" and get someone on the team to help you, then you're working in a toxic environment and need to find a new job.
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Apr 28, 2017 03:18
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Space Gopher posted:If you can't say, "hey, I've never worked with this before, can I get an hour with somebody to go over the basics?" and get someone on the team to help you, then you're working in a toxic environment and need to find a new job. Well, yeah. I was more countering the idea that your coworkers job is to "teach" you unit testing or any other topics. They can help you, you can pick their brains, ask for pointers or a starting point or some good examples in the current code base, but no one is going to teach you poo poo for the most part. A good portion of this job is knowing how to learn and teach yourself.
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Apr 28, 2017 03:28
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Gildiss posted:A good portion of this job is knowing how to learn and teach yourself. While this is ultimately true, I do think you should be able to get some non-trivial direction in a new area. Half of my job is mentoring students, but I also spend a lot of time helping out with web dev in general on other projects. But maybe I just like the sound of my own voice...
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Apr 28, 2017 05:30
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lifg posted:I get the impression that QA has changed a lot in recent years. It used to be, in the words of an older coworker, "where you put coders who couldn't code." These days, most QA I've known have also been formidable coders and systems analysts. (One even tutored me in a robotics course I was taking.) But the reputation remains. Seconding this. I have been in QA since 2004 mostly because it was the only thing employers were willing to pay me for. Over the last five years it has changed a lot in the projects I work in. Normally it would be QA as a shitfilter and the devs who throw stuff over the wall, there would be shouting and blaming during defect triage calls and in general everyone would be miserable. Now that QA has become more an automation job, using Cucumber, FitNesse or whatever test framework has your fancy, it is so much closer to development that people work more in a team and in general I have experienced more understanding. But still there is more of a shortage of test engineers over developers, it seems that to be able to write automated tests (System, not unit) you need to have developer skills but that those with developer skills are rather developing. I like this as I prefer to be in a market with high demand and low supply. Your local market may be different.
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Apr 28, 2017 06:53
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Pretty much the last thing I did before getting laid off a few months ago was have the audacity to suggest that we start bringing the QA automation code up to the same standards as the rest of the code. The developers had basically been rubber-stamping the QA code in pull requests for years, instead trusting QA to review each other. Since I was trying to get the developers to turn a corner and take more initiative in writing backend automation (leaving QA to handle manual testing and in-browser automation), I figured we were due to have the disciplines reviewing each other. The QA manager flipped out at the implied insult to the quality of the QA code. The Dev manager flipped out at the potential delay. The non-managers seemed okay with it. I think I had to tell the managers to chill out and have a discussion. Soon after that, I was called upstairs and told, "We don't need an architect."  Anyway, interview for one job scheduled for Tuesday and call back for another job due to come in on Thursday!
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Apr 28, 2017 16:47
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Those people suck and you are better off without them.
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Apr 28, 2017 17:09
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