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TheChirurgeon posted:Hmmm nope I was talking about a completely different standard than this, you know, the one that had Mana Leak, 1 and 0 mana cantrips where Snappy was insane like he is in older formats. They rotated out Mana Leak and pretty much all of the good cheap spells specifically because of how good Snapcaster was, and it was STILL great. But yeah this clearly is not the format or deck I was talking about.
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Apr 27, 2017 16:22
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I don't think Snap was the reason that deck was dominant tbh but yeah Delver was insane in that format. That had more to do with it having Mana Leak, Ponder, and the answers to Geist being hot garbage. Also, Inkmoth + Pike was stupid and miserable to play against. Snappy was gross but not the reason the deck was the best in the format.
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Apr 27, 2017 16:37
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Marketing New Brain posted:I was talking about a completely different standard than this, you know, the one that had Mana Leak, 1 and 0 mana cantrips where Snappy was insane like he is in older formats. They rotated out Mana Leak and pretty much all of the good cheap spells specifically because of how good Snapcaster was, and it was STILL great. But yeah this clearly is not the format or deck I was talking about. You're basically talking about a two-month time frame right between like May 2012 and July 2012, when Delver pushed ahead of Pod and right before M13 rotated Mana Leak out of Standard. Forgive me if I don't see your point about Snapcaster's dominance
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Apr 27, 2017 16:37
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TheChirurgeon posted:You're basically talking about a two-month time frame right between like May 2012 and July 2012, when Delver pushed ahead of Pod and right before M13 rotated Mana Leak out of Standard. Forgive me if I don't see your point about Snapcaster's dominance Delver was pretty much always the best deck in that format. Also, Mana Leak didn't rotate until RTR.
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Apr 27, 2017 16:39
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Marketing New Brain posted:I was talking about a completely different standard than this, you know, the one that had Mana Leak, 1 and 0 mana cantrips where Snappy was insane like he is in older formats. They rotated out Mana Leak and pretty much all of the good cheap spells specifically because of how good Snapcaster was, and it was STILL great. But yeah this clearly is not the format or deck I was talking about. PT Dark Ascension had 4 Delver/Snapcaster decks in the top 8, 3 Primeval Titan decks, and 1 Birthing Bod deck. A bit under 1/3 of the players that went 9-1 or better in standard were playing it. That's a strong performance to be sure, but it certainly doesn't seem all-out busted. e: More people were playing Geist of St. Traft than were playing Snapcaster Mage.
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Apr 27, 2017 16:42
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Sampatrick posted:Delver was pretty much always the best deck in that format. Also, Mana Leak didn't rotate until RTR. my bad. 3 months, I guess? But straight up, go back and look at tournament results. Delver was nowhere near as dominant as you are making it out to be.
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Apr 27, 2017 16:43
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Sickening posted:Just so happens melissa was part of the playtest group and it looked like there wasn't much emphasis on that team. It appears they have changed their mind on that front, maybe for the better. Wait, yeah! They have people like her working for them right? Then what the hell is their excuse? "Ah yes! We are going to hire this person, because she is really good at the game and then not listen to a word she says! Brilliant! Now, let's print another loving Gideon!"
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Apr 27, 2017 16:45
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My point, now somewhat lost, was that they don't ban cards based solely on power level or prevalence in a format. They ban because they are unpopular. Cards like Bloodbraid elf never got banned because they weren't chase mythic so people didn't care as much, if it had been 70 dollars per elf it wouldn't have made it out of Block Constructed.
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Apr 27, 2017 16:47
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Sampatrick posted:They banned Jace because Jace was the best card in that standard. Caw-Go was arguably the best deck even before Stoneforge was around. The other top tier decks were things like URx Twin featuring Jace the Mind Sculptor, RUG Control featuring Jace the Mind Sculptor, UW Control featuring Jace the Mind Sculptor, UB Control featuring Jace the Mind Sculptor, and then RDW and Valakut. Jace was more prevalent in that format than SFM. That's not even remotely true. Jtms is a generically good card so it fit into most blue decks, sure, but mostly in the same way that preordain or ponder did. Most of the decks that played him weren't Jace decks. The only real Jace deck was using the caw/jace combo to draw three cards, without that he was a solid 3 effects worth between 0 and 1 mana at sorcery speed. That's still a solid bit of extra value but it didn't break decks wide open. Remember, when he got printed he saw almost no play (ie. he did not make blue good by himself) and when blue got better and you had the bant mythic decks he was played as a 2-3 of.
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Apr 27, 2017 16:50
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Jenx posted:Wait, yeah! They have people like her working for them right? Then what the hell is their excuse? "Ah yes! We are going to hire this person, because she is really good at the game and then not listen to a word she says! Brilliant! Now, let's print another loving Gideon!" Because they value the counsel of Wiseman more than any of their other employees. 
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Apr 27, 2017 16:52
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NovemberMike posted:That's not even remotely true. Jtms is a generically good card so it fit into most blue decks, sure, but mostly in the same way that preordain or ponder did. Most of the decks that played him weren't Jace decks. The only real Jace deck was using the caw/jace combo to draw three cards, without that he was a solid 3 effects worth between 0 and 1 mana at sorcery speed. That's still a solid bit of extra value but it didn't break decks wide open. Jace is too good on an empty board and too miserable to play against.
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Apr 27, 2017 16:53
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mcmagic posted:Jace is too good on an empty board and too miserable to play against. mostly because of that fateseal ability. I'm glad they realized how unfun that mechanic was, particularly on a permanent.
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Apr 27, 2017 16:56
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Marketing New Brain posted:My point, now somewhat lost, was that they don't ban cards based solely on power level or prevalence in a format. They ban because they are unpopular. Cards like Bloodbraid elf never got banned because they weren't chase mythic so people didn't care as much, if it had been 70 dollars per elf it wouldn't have made it out of Block Constructed. I mean, you're right but I think you're missing the point. Obviously the ban hammer will only fall when people are dissatisfied with Standard. If the format is just Mardu mirrors all day but people love it and FNMs are booming, WotC won't do poo poo. This is kinda obvious. WotC only changes things when people are unsatisfied. Why would they change things if people are happy? You have to remember that at the end of the day, Magic is a game. Games need to be fun, my dude.
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Apr 27, 2017 16:57
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Jenx posted:Wait, yeah! They have people like her working for them right? Then what the hell is their excuse? "Ah yes! We are going to hire this person, because she is really good at the game and then not listen to a word she says! Brilliant! Now, let's print another loving Gideon!" I don't know what the timeline was but she may not have been working there when copycat was past the point of no return.
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Apr 27, 2017 16:57
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Jenx posted:I guess the good thing to come out of this, is that it will stop people from bitching about Standard for at least a short while. 2 weeks.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:01
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Because they value the counsel of Wiseman more than any of their other employees. Well that explains why we haven't seen any Moonfolk besides Tamiyo in years.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:06
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Ari Marmell's Agents of Artifice was actually a nice read. I seriously did not expect that. Of course, after reading how Liliana got a whole bunch of Jace's friends killed in a bid to become an interplanar mob boss, these new stories come off a bit weird. 
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Apr 27, 2017 17:29
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Attorney at Funk posted:INN-RTR owned because it had Esper Sphinx's Rev decks with Nephalia Drownyard as a win condition. I enjoyed RTR-THS UWx control with Elixir of Immortality as win condition.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:34
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So are we supposed to recognize the weird knobbly staff that Elder Dragon God Pharaoh Legend Bolas is stealing in the art of Dispossess?
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Apr 27, 2017 17:41
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That's not Bolas.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:43
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Marketing New Brain posted:My point, now somewhat lost, was that they don't ban cards based solely on power level or prevalence in a format. They ban because they are unpopular. Cards like Bloodbraid elf never got banned because they weren't chase mythic so people didn't care as much, if it had been 70 dollars per elf it wouldn't have made it out of Block Constructed. JTMS also fits into the same category as Emrakul the Promised End where on top of being powerful it's a card that lets the opponent perform the MTG equivalent of torture on you before it kills you, and you can't just scoop because your opponent might use the fateseal or the Emrakul turn wrong and leave you with outs. These cards are way less fun to play against than other finishers despite achieving the same ends.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:45
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Sampatrick posted:I mean, you're right but I think you're missing the point. Obviously the ban hammer will only fall when people are dissatisfied with Standard. If the format is just Mardu mirrors all day but people love it and FNMs are booming, WotC won't do poo poo. This is kinda obvious. WotC only changes things when people are unsatisfied. Why would they change things if people are happy? Well, yes, but I think this banning, and the previous standard banning, and the one before that, are just appeasement. They aren't testing or worrying about the format or collecting data, they are just making sure they keep certain groups happy and don't get fired and aren't really planning or thinking ahead. The explanations are all theatre and there is no philosophy that is guiding them, which is just embarrassing. I mean they clearly got it right banning the stupid cat combo, but the way it happens reveals incompetence or at the very least a lack of a clear plan at the highest levels.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:45
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Unban Magic players, ban Magic developers.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:47
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Entropic posted:So are we supposed to recognize the weird knobbly staff that Elder Dragon God Pharaoh Legend Bolas is stealing in the art of Dispossess? I thought that was a demon, ala the Archfiend? 
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Apr 27, 2017 17:47
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Tales of Woe posted:JTMS also fits into the same category as Emrakul the Promised End where on top of being powerful it's a card that lets the opponent perform the MTG equivalent of torture on you before it kills you, and you can't just scoop because your opponent might use the fateseal or the Emrakul turn wrong and leave you with outs. These cards are way less fun to play against than other finishers despite achieving the same ends. Jace is fine in a format with enough answers. Standard (and some extent modern) is not that format.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:48
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Rinkles posted:I thought that was a demon, ala the Archfiend? Yeah it's that guy. He's also on Haze of Pollen getting his allergies triggered or something.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:48
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Siivola posted:That's not Bolas. It's not? I mean it's a big dragon dressed like a pharaoh? I guess he doesn't have the magic pokeball between his horns. Is it supposed to be a demon or something?
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Apr 27, 2017 17:49
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Entropic posted:So are we supposed to recognize the weird knobbly staff that Elder Dragon God Pharaoh Legend Bolas is stealing in the art of Dispossess? I think that's a Honed Khopesh.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:49
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Tales of Woe posted:Yeah it's that guy. He's also on Haze of Pollen getting his allergies triggered or something. I didn't realize it wasn't a dragon until seeing the card for the third or fourth time. I do like the design, though.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:50
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Lone Goat posted:I think that's a Honed Khopesh. drat, a Leonin Scimitar functional reprint is pretty good but not that good.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:52
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Xaerael posted:Important thing to note, fellow oldschool player... a lot of core rules are different now. Mostly for the best. Eg, Mana burn is long dead, the combat step makes way more sense, and instant speed stuff works very differently. wait, what??
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Apr 27, 2017 17:51
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Tales of Woe posted:Yeah it's that guy. He's also on Haze of Pollen getting his allergies triggered or something. Poor demon guy's got it rough. Makes a living fencing swords and has massive allergies. 
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Apr 27, 2017 17:54
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For all we know that's the Demon Liliana came to murder.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:54
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DigitalMocking posted:wait, what?? Mana burn was a gotcha mechanic that really didn't add anything to the game. The only design space was used with that one card that gave you mana during each upkeep.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:55
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DigitalMocking posted:wait, what?? If you have unspent mana at the end of a phase or step, nothing happens. It just goes away. Add eight green, spend six of it on Ulvenwald Hydra, you don't lose two life. It just disappears. It's opened up a bit of design space now that you can't essentially pay X to reduce your own life total by X anymore.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:56
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Count Bleck posted:For all we know that's the Demon Liliana came to murder. 
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Apr 27, 2017 17:59
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Entropic posted:It's not? I mean it's a big dragon dressed like a pharaoh? I guess he doesn't have the magic pokeball between his horns. Is it supposed to be a demon or something? It's this dude I believe, who fits neatly into the category of "please put art on cards that I can actually see at that size please"  Nice painting though.
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Apr 27, 2017 18:00
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:If you have unspent mana at the end of a phase or step, nothing happens. It just goes away. Add eight green, spend six of it on Ulvenwald Hydra, you don't lose two life. It just disappears. well raise my rent. I need to clarify that rule to my son, he's got a bunch of cards that give mana when you attack with them out of Kaladesh and I told him about mana burn.
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Apr 27, 2017 18:01
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Tales of Woe posted:JTMS also fits into the same category as Emrakul the Promised End where on top of being powerful it's a card that lets the opponent perform the MTG equivalent of torture on you before it kills you, and you can't just scoop because your opponent might use the fateseal or the Emrakul turn wrong and leave you with outs. These cards are way less fun to play against than other finishers despite achieving the same ends. I mean Jace uptick was definitely unpleasant but I think not that different than any slow control deck win con. Being drownyarded out or towered out is all pretty much the same, the format had fetchlands fateseal wasn't even a real lock. People just hated the card because when your deck cost 80 bucks and a JTMS was 100 it felt unfair. It's one of the most popular cards in other format with a ton of people begging for it to be unbanned, right or wrong. Emrakul also wasn't slow torture, it was actually very quick, it's just being mindslavered is the actual ultimate feel bad in magic that most competitive players will scoop rather than go through it unless their deck is designed to be immune lack Lantern control or something similar. It's an insanely dumb ability to put on a to cast trigger on a card that's pushed to see a lot of play.
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Apr 27, 2017 18:02
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Count Bleck posted:For all we know that's the Demon Liliana came to murder. Though it would be hilarious if it is.
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