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im doing a full map clear for yucks since this is the first league i've reached mapping on, but after legacy is over i fully intend to never see or run a residence map ever again
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Apr 27, 2017 21:40
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Ultima66 posted:Also it's worth noting that what people complained about with regards to double dipping (WHY DOES PROJECTILE DAMAGE SCALE MY POISON???) is still there because that would be loving stupid to get rid of. If you made a statement like "projectile and area damage no longer works on secondary DoT effects" you'd have to explain why the gently caress Essence Drain gains no benefit from projectile damage or Righteous Fire gains no benefit from Concentrated Effect, and this is literally what most people on Reddit seemed to think the fix should be when they said "area damage and projectile damage applying to poison" was the underlying problem. Carry on scaling Spectral Throw poison builds by stacking Projectile damage. The difference is that those mods will never apply twice now. I'm still learning the mechanics of this game, can you explain a few things for me? Right now, essence drain has two parts. The projectile and the DoT. Using projectile damage makes sense that it would improve the projectile, and when the DoT damage was just a % of the projectile, it made sense that adding in proj damage would impact the DoT. Does Proj Dmg also improve the DoT, and thats what "double dipping" means? The DoT gets double the effect of Proj Dmg. Also, now that they are changing poison/bleed/ignite to no longer be a % of the projectile and instead being a fixed amount, it is no longer affected by Proj Dmg at all? The scaling of the DoT is now separate from the scaling of the projectile, and is scaled by other things (like passive nodes). Am I understanding this correctly?
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Apr 27, 2017 21:43
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Yes to all that.
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Apr 27, 2017 21:46
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I read a bit more about this, so let me try to explain my current understanding and see if its correct. Projectile Damage will scale the projectile AND it will scale the DoT, but now that the DoT is no longer tied to the projectile, it removes double dipping. Is that correct?
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Apr 27, 2017 21:59
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No. Double dipping is that a single modifier applies twice. Once to the initial hit, and then again to the dot. Since the dot is scaled off the initial hit, this is garbage and broken. They are making it so that a given modifier (eg projectile, or fire, or whatever) will only apply to dot damage once rather than twice.
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Apr 27, 2017 22:08
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Venuz Patrol posted:im doing a full map clear for yucks since this is the first league i've reached mapping on, but after legacy is over i fully intend to never see or run a residence map ever again Residence is not a great map, but it's still better than any of the ones based off the prison/crematorium tile set.
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Apr 27, 2017 22:18
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VP needs to go right back to between Duelist and Marauder where it was originally, because it makes no drat sense (and never did) for a node focused on Leeching Life to be between two classes with Int (energy shield) as a core statistic. As it stands, the entire North-to-East quarter of the tree is so insanely efficient that you waste very few points in getting practically everything you want, whereas the South-to-West portion of the tree is absolute garbage in comparison. Life builds who need get get VP (most of them) have to then waste 10 points or more in order to actually get VP. There aren't a whole lot of options for marauder/duelist, whereas shadow/witch are freely able to choose how much damage or survivability they want. also i casually 6Ld 2 ilvl 84+ regalias this morning, so if anyone wants to buy one (or both), let me know pokchu fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 22:36
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pork never goes bad posted:No. Double dipping is that a single modifier applies twice. Once to the initial hit, and then again to the dot. Since the dot is scaled off the initial hit, this is garbage and broken. They are making it so that a given modifier (eg projectile, or fire, or whatever) will only apply to dot damage once rather than twice. His statement was correct. Projectile damage will improve the hit damage from the hit component of ED, and it will improve the damage over time from the degen component. It is never applied twice to either component. All poison, ignite, and bleed now works this way.
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Apr 27, 2017 22:47
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I'd definitely recommend doing all maps on your first time to (red) maps and extensively shape from next League on. I made Shaped Strand my only T11/12 and Shaped Courtyard my only T15 this League and I still regret not reducing T13 to Shaped Shore too, it's really a lot more fun than running crap maps.
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Apr 27, 2017 22:49
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Cells is the worst map ever designed. Also not really a fan of Burial Grounds, Crematorium or Barrows. Excavation is awful too, but only because the bosses are super dangerous.
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Apr 27, 2017 22:57
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pokchu posted:VP needs to go right back to between Duelist and Marauder where it was originally, because it makes no drat sense (and never did) for a node focused on Leeching Life to be between two classes with Int (energy shield) as a core statistic. As it stands, the entire North-to-East quarter of the tree is so insanely efficient that you waste very few points in getting practically everything you want, whereas the South-to-West portion of the tree is absolute garbage in comparison. Life builds who need get get VP (most of them) have to then waste 10 points or more in order to actually get VP. There aren't a whole lot of options for marauder/duelist, whereas shadow/witch are freely able to choose how much damage or survivability they want. What if they put it where Iron Reflexes is currently? Then its still reachable by ES builds, but not easily; and way easier for life builds to grab. Should maybe have the no regen affect ES too, since right now there's literally zero reason not to get it on CI builds
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Apr 27, 2017 23:16
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it should definitely kill (or at least slow) es regen
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Apr 27, 2017 23:16
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terrified of my bathroom posted:What if they put it where Iron Reflexes is currently? Then its still reachable by ES builds, but not easily; and way easier for life builds to grab. Should maybe have the no regen affect ES too, since right now there's literally zero reason not to get it on CI builds ES can't regen with VP already, even if they have ZO. It can recharge, which happens after a set duration of not taking damage and is slow as gently caress unless you build for it.
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Apr 27, 2017 23:36
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And if VP blocked ES recharge no-one would take it, since there's no way to manually top up your ES like there is with health potions.
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Apr 27, 2017 23:40
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I think vaal pact is really overrated for life builds anyway. You don't have the recharge mechanic that ES has, and you don't usually have the same overall pool, so you're basically forcing yourself into a corner where you have to either be dodging almost everything or attacking constantly. I guess it's not as big of a deal in softcore, but I've always felt really vulnerable trying to use it in HC.
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Apr 27, 2017 23:47
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YoungSexualNorton posted:I think vaal pact is really overrated for life builds anyway. You don't have the recharge mechanic that ES has, and you don't usually have the same overall pool, so you're basically forcing yourself into a corner where you have to either be dodging almost everything or attacking constantly. I guess it's not as big of a deal in softcore, but I've always felt really vulnerable trying to use it in HC. Nah, people think it's miserable and quite bad. But it's near a requirement to play in the endgame right now so you either deal with it or go ES.
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Apr 27, 2017 23:57
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Vulpes posted:And if VP blocked ES recharge no-one would take it, since there's no way to manually top up your ES like there is with health potions. you top up ES by leeching. yeah, it'd suck if you can't find trash packs to fill up before you fight bosses, but, uh, that's kind of how keystone drawbacks work. you get something nice, you lose something nice in return
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Apr 27, 2017 23:57
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Ultima66 posted:Nah, people think it's miserable and quite bad. Yeah, no one thinks VP is fun for anything outside actively attacking monsters. VP is a massive pain in the rear end in labs, and while doing any kind of non-monster-based objectives (phophs or whatever.) And yet, you pretty much have to take it in order to do guardians or beyond. Whereas a CI build gets massive amount of luxury from it for the cost of a single skill point (because i've yet to see a build that doesn't path directly adjacent to it anyway) Venuz Patrol posted:you top up ES by leeching. yeah, it'd suck if you can't find trash packs to fill up before you fight bosses, but, uh, that's kind of how keystone drawbacks work. you get something nice, you lose something nice in return and its what life users have to already do anyway
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Apr 28, 2017 00:11
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Life users get flasks, they don't have to top off by leeching.
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Apr 28, 2017 00:41
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Would adding a flask for energy shields make any sense?
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Apr 28, 2017 00:51
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more ehp is probably not what we need to balance ci
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Apr 28, 2017 00:54
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I didn't think about lab, that would make VP es builds incredibly painful. I'm not really sure how you fix that though, as it is VP is pretty close to mandatory for the endgame and es builds have zero downside to taking it maybe you just say gently caress it, make all leech instant by default and kill off VP 
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Apr 28, 2017 01:10
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Ultima66 posted:Nah, people think it's miserable and quite bad. Atziri's Acuity exists and it owns.
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Apr 28, 2017 01:12
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Murder She Twote posted:Atziri's Acuity exists and it owns. They only work for crit builds and are also the third most expensive (non-relic) unique in the game
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Apr 28, 2017 01:41
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terrified of my bathroom posted:I didn't think about lab, that would make VP es builds incredibly painful. I'm not really sure how you fix that though, as it is VP is pretty close to mandatory for the endgame and es builds have zero downside to taking it There are quite a few ES regen builds (using ZO) that don't take VP, notably RF and some totem and trap builds.
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Apr 28, 2017 02:00
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Mystery Prize posted:There are quite a few ES regen builds (using ZO) that don't take VP, notably RF and some totem and trap builds. Those types of builds are what I was referring to when I said close to mandatory. I don't know of any T16+ viable builds that use leech and don't use VP or atziri gloves (though I'm sure someone has done it)
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Apr 28, 2017 02:33
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Warchief Totems builds can do Shaper/guardians without VP but still use leech with chieftain.
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Apr 28, 2017 02:40
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Leech + life regen is definitely viable for life builds where you have a larger health pool. 10% is not hard to pick up for templar/marauder/duelist and with leech on top it can let you stand and fight end game bosses. It is pretty rough for rangers and duelists who split their defenses between ehp and block/dodge though. Nearly every end game boss has either strong degen or really strong single hits that negate the value of only getting hit some of the time. I don't know what to do about that apart from completely redesigning those mechanics to act at least partly as mitigation instead of avoidance. Kintsugi is sort of an interesting approach but it's not enough on its own.
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Apr 28, 2017 03:05
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Magus42 posted:Life users get flasks, they don't have to top off by leeching. While they might get life flasks, those are usually limited to ones willed with some kind of instant mod and are for emergencies, not "topping off." In addition, thanks to the obscene flasks ggg has been adding, the days of anyone having more than 1 life flask are gone
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Apr 28, 2017 03:42
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Life flasks are poopie.
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Apr 28, 2017 03:53
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Instead of nerfing CI, which is borderline impossible to do without just killing it, they need to buff the hell out of life. Also armour, armour definitely needs help. Maybe also tone down chaos damage?
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Apr 28, 2017 03:53
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D3 ran into this a while ago. Dex classes suffered horribly because evasion on its own is necessarily either OP or useless by design. They ended up making Dex do exactly the same thing as Str, which fixed the problem mechanically but is stupid as hell and makes no sense. The moral is that pure evasion is terrible so make hybrids work. As for VP, I think Atziri's Acuity is a good example of a way to deal with it. Maybe give VP a different trigger than crit.
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Apr 28, 2017 04:11
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Evasion would be good if Armor was good, because Evasion can be turned into Armor (the only thing it's good for).
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Apr 28, 2017 04:43
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All skill effects on sale this weekend, get a mystery box when you spend points.
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Apr 28, 2017 05:37
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Ultima66 posted:Nah, people think it's miserable and quite bad. The Shortest Path posted:Evasion would be good if Armor was good, because Evasion can be turned into Armor (the only thing it's good for). its amazing that no matter how long I go without opening this thread, there is always some incredibly dumb, inflammatory claim(s) on the current page. The Shortest Path posted:Maybe also tone down chaos damage? ?? chaos damage is fine. have you ever actually gotten chaos resist? if your argument is "no but i shouldnt have to because ____" then lol. if you bring it to even 0% (instead of -60%) it starts to tickle, and any higher than that its borderline ignorable. panda clue fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Apr 28, 2017 |
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Apr 28, 2017 06:09
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I'm sorry that you prefer a random chance of being oneshotted to properly defending yourself. Chaos damage is one of many ways they could help tip the balance back toward HP+Armor being viable compared to ES again.
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Apr 28, 2017 06:14
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The Shortest Path posted:I'm sorry that you prefer a random chance of being oneshotted to properly defending yourself. wonderful strawman you got there The Shortest Path posted:Chaos damage is one of many ways they could help tip the balance back toward HP+Armor being viable compared to ES again. see above. chaos damage is fine. get resist.
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Apr 28, 2017 06:15
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panda clue posted:wonderful strawman you got there  Chaos damage being fine in a vacuum doesn't mean anything. It's one thing that affects armor builds that does not affect ES builds, therefore it is one of many things that could be tweaked as part of an overall balance change to make armor builds better. It is not the only one of those things. Evasion is bad because if it isn't bad it's hilariously overpowered.
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Apr 28, 2017 06:19
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The Shortest Path posted:
Chaos does effect ES builds - it doesn't effect CI builds. There is a difference. CI would probably be fine if they just flat out removed the nodes behind it, which I expect something along those lines in 3.0. Evasion is fine unless you rely on it 100%, which is obviously not intended for anyone that isn't a ranged character. As a supplementary form of mitigation it is excellent. Evasion doesn't exist in a vacuum.
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Apr 28, 2017 06:21
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Evasion is a good layer of defense It's just that we also have a type of defense that's a good defense by itself
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Apr 28, 2017 06:37
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