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I wonder if Aida completes the Looking Glass and SHIELD defeats her, but they manage to bring back Tripp and Nice Ward into the real world, and maybe Mack's daughter too.
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Apr 28, 2017 19:42
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Not to break the chain of speculation about something that hasn't been explained in full yet, but I forgot how good the acting of Brett Dalton was as Hive. He really, truly exuded a sort of confidence and poise that worked, especially because it was the sort of thing Grant Ward never had in either Fake Good Guy Grant from S1 or Bad Guy Ward forms. Pretty impressive, he's gotten to play 4 different characters pretty incredibly. I'm going to miss him if he doesn't make it out of the Framework or out of the season alive.
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Apr 28, 2017 20:20
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I'm mostly waiting for the other shoe to drop with Ward. He tends to wrap his personality around whoever's closest to him and he's super codependent.This episode spent a lot of time showing how much he wants Skye back, so I figure he's going to sabotage things and get in the way so he can keep her there. And then Gemma gets a told-you-so moment.
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Apr 28, 2017 20:49
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sticklefifer posted:I'm mostly waiting for the other shoe to drop with Ward. He tends to wrap his personality around whoever's closest to him and he's super codependent.This episode spent a lot of time showing how much he wants Skye back, so I figure he's going to sabotage things and get in the way so he can keep her there. And then Gemma gets a told-you-so moment. Nah. Remember, Skye was there before Daisy came and took her over. So he's thinking that if Daisy is successful, he'll get his Skye back. Before the last episode I think you could suspect him, but when he said that Hand was the person that took him in, that's when we learned he's trustworthy to our heroes. He's loyal to almost a fault, but he's loyal to the good people this time instead of Garrett like in the real world.
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Apr 28, 2017 20:56
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Argue posted:Can we settle this once and for all; this is the dialogue from the last ep of the LMD arc: The point of contention is whether or not these created people in the Framework are autonomous and self-determining enough to count as true sentient beings -- and thereby entitled to the right to live their lives -- and not just programs acting out their programing, however complex. The question is, at what point does one become the other or whether or not there's any difference between these things at all. All that Westworld shite. And then there's people saying that this is an actual parallel universe or something which is based on nothing but stuff Aida is telling Fitz to get him to build her a body. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Apr 28, 2017 |
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Apr 28, 2017 22:19
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Aida and Radcliffe built the Framework so IMO the most logical assumption is still that its exactly that, a really good computer program with incredibly complex AI. Its entirely within the realms of possibility that the Darkholde magic led them to "creating life" or maybe even some crazy rear end thing like tapping into an alternate reality. But there's no evidence of that besides (A) Aida/Ophelia's pretty obvious manipulative (at least half) lie to Fitz and (b) the people in the Framework's natural sense of self and desire to believe they're "real." Maybe they're right. But I haven't seen the show present evidence of that. Now, there's a really impossible to answer science fiction and philosophical debate to be had about what is life and if they're not "real" or "alive" even if they are just computer programs. Is Aida alive? Was Jarvis? Ultron? Vision? I dunno. That poo poo's above my pay grade. Its a new level of the basic questions of life humans have been wrestling with forever. There's a few issues I have that I do think I can argue, though. 1) Hope is not Hope. Its tragic as gently caress but I don't see any other way to see it. At best she's taken from Mack's almost certainly flawed and incomplete memories. At worst she's some approximation of what Hope is determined by Aida and algorithms. I'm not saying "Hope" isn't alive or whatever, I'm just saying she's not the little girl who died and who Mack has been grieving. She doesn't have all those memories and secret thoughts and motivations and feelings that the real Hope had. That seems to be the entire reason for linking the real SHIELD agents to the Framework, to connect their real minds to their Framework versions. Hope doesn't have that. She just has an approximation of Hope's mind based on flawed sources. So like, maybe Mack has a new daughter who is very much alive. But its not Hope. 2) We can't have "Fitz vs Fitz" because this IS Fitz. Its the real world Fitz plugged into the Framework. Its not the "alternate" Fitz, be him a computer program or an alternate reality version of him. "Alternate Fitz" is wherever the hell Ward's "Skye" went. Every evil thing Fitz is doing is being down by Fitz himself. So if Fitz escapes the Framework and is "good" then the Fitz that is left is a different guy who didn't do that poo poo. ("Would my Skye come back?"/"I don't know. But she's a Hydra agent.") "Good Fitz" did. "Evil Fitz" would at best be a copy of "Good Fitz's" sins. And if this Fitz escapes the Framework with Ophelia than he is presumably the real Fitz in a new body and the old Fitz body is just brain dead like Mace presumably was. Because its all one Fitz. tldr; I have no idea what the meaning and nature of life is but I'm pretty sure that there's 2 Hopes and only 1 Fitz.
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Apr 28, 2017 22:24
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One of the things I'm finding really fascinating this season is that -- unlike Westworld and other SciFi takes on AI's being 'real' or not -- in the MCU the question isn't purely philosophical. Souls objectively exist; we started the season with a bunch of ghosts running around and Ghost Rider to boot. I don't know if AoS will or even wants to give us a definitive answer to this question, but there is one.
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Apr 28, 2017 22:40
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STAC Goat posted:1) Hope is not Hope. Its tragic as gently caress but I don't see any other way to see it. At best she's taken from Mack's almost certainly flawed and incomplete memories. At worst she's some approximation of what Hope is determined by Aida and algorithms. I'm not saying "Hope" isn't alive or whatever, I'm just saying she's not the little girl who died and who Mack has been grieving
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Apr 28, 2017 22:47
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Oracle posted:Dude, Hope died when she was like 8 days old or something. An infant. Huh, I thought she was older than that when she died. I'm dumb and bad with character details it seems. But that kind of makes it even more hosed up, IMO. Because its still not Hope because its not her consciousness or mind or whatever. Its not even based on some literal girl from memories. Its just some random little girl that Mack was told he loved. Which is really, really messed up.
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Apr 28, 2017 22:51
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It's more likely she was crafted out of Mack's personal idealized vision of what his daughter would be like now, if she had lived. Which is also hosed up in its way. Maybe the real Hope who died wouldn't have been anything like this girl. Maybe she would be into DC Comics and Teen Wolf. We don't know!
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Apr 28, 2017 23:04
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I think it's literally hope and a wizard did it.
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Apr 29, 2017 00:55
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Hope is actually Savitar.
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Apr 29, 2017 02:46
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That would be a pretty impressive twist. Can Ward be Slade at that point?
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Apr 29, 2017 03:20
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I'm actively waiting for Ward to turn in a scorpion-stinging-the-frog-it-is-my-nature scenario because I am a terrible person
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Apr 29, 2017 03:27
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BrianWilly posted:The point of contention is whether or not these created people in the Framework are autonomous and self-determining enough to count as true sentient beings -- and thereby entitled to the right to live their lives -- and not just programs acting out their programing Sorry, I see what you're saying now. Earlier in the thread, some people were suggesting that the 7 billion people were largely invented, and that the only people who had actual counterparts in the real world were the SHIELD agents inside, as well as the people that they "willed" into existence through their memories; I interpreted the stuff above as a continuation of that argument. quote:And then there's people saying that this is an actual parallel universe or something which is based on nothing but stuff Aida is telling Fitz to get him to build her a body. Have you guys watched Source Code 
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Apr 29, 2017 04:54
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Hope probably isn't based on Mac's ideals. I would assume the Framework is a good enough simulation that it actually played out everyone's lives, or at least determined how they'd played out. So Hope is in fact a little girl raised as daddy Mac would raise her. The only flaws in her would come from the simulation itself being flawed, if it even is.
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Apr 29, 2017 05:02
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The Darkhold can show you how to do anything, in return for driving you crazy. Radcliffe wanted a perfect simulation, and that's what the Darkhold gave him.
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Apr 29, 2017 05:13
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For a while, I thought Ghost Rider was going to show up in the framework and reveal that this VR world wasn't a figurative Hell, but thanks to Darkhold mojo it was actual literal Hell. Like, the VR interface was just a way to dangle souls into Hell, until their tethers to the mortal world were cut, trapping them forever. Radcliffe would be damned now, with no living body to return to... But then I guess that would make Agnes double damned? At this point it looks like they're going more straight super-science though, rather than bringing the season full-circle back to demons and hellfire.
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Apr 29, 2017 06:22
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Phylodox posted:a) Just because they're not completely based on pre-existing people doesn't make them not-people. Every "real" person on Earth is a unique individual. Yeah, it's very strange that people who are watching a Comic Book Show that uses Comic Book Logic are resistant to the idea that Framework personalities can be Pinocchioed into real humans.
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Apr 29, 2017 06:32
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wiegieman posted:The Darkhold can show you how to do anything, in return for driving you crazy. I think it's even more than that -- the Darkhold can give you anything you want, in return for that thing ultimately killing you. Usually just moments after you actually get it. Lucy the scientist never got a chance to properly use the book; Eli got in her way. But even then she was left trapped between dimensions as a ghost, and the second time she got her hands on the book she very quickly ended up dead. Eli used the Darkhold to control matter, but just as he was about to build a new planet he was sucked into a hell dimension by the Ghost Rider, whose existence was a collateral result of his using the book in the first place. Radcliffe wanted to use the LMD and Framework programs to prevent death and extend life. Upon completion of both his projects, Aida destroys his body and traps him in the Framework. Aida wants to use the Darkhold to provide her with a new body, so she can fully experience what it's like to live. And a key part of being alive is dying... (Also, everyone who's used the Darkhold has been trying to create new life. Where's that going, exactly? What's the Darkhold trying to bring into this world?)
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Apr 29, 2017 06:33
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BrianWilly posted:It's more likely she was crafted out of Mack's personal idealized vision of what his daughter would be like now, if she had lived. Which is also hosed up in its way. Teen Wold is awesome though, because there were only ever those two movie with Michael J Fox and definitely not a lovely series that is terrible and should never be mentioned ever.
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Apr 29, 2017 06:45
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Soonmot posted:Teen Wold is awesome though, because there were only ever those two movie with Michael J Fox and definitely not a lovely series that is terrible and should never be mentioned ever. Yeah, I guess it's pretty awful. The Originals is surprisingly good if you can make it through some part of the first season.
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Apr 29, 2017 07:14
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Soonmot posted:Teen Wold is awesome though, because there were only ever those two movie with Michael J Fox and definitely not a lovely series that is terrible and should never be mentioned ever. Michael J Fox does not star in the second Teen Wolf film. It was Jason Bateman who wore the fur instead! 
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Apr 29, 2017 09:35
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Argue posted:Sorry, I see what you're saying now. Earlier in the thread, some people were suggesting that the 7 billion people were largely invented, and that the only people who had actual counterparts in the real world were the SHIELD agents inside, as well as the people that they "willed" into existence through their memories; I interpreted the stuff above as a continuation of that argument. Better comparison might be the San Junipero episode of Black Mirror.
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Apr 29, 2017 11:54
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Robot Hobo posted:For a while, I thought Ghost Rider was going to show up in the framework and reveal that this VR world wasn't a figurative Hell, but thanks to Darkhold mojo it was actual literal Hell. Still hoping for this ending. Mostly to see Ghost Rider declare Aida has a soul, and drag her to robot hell.
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Apr 29, 2017 13:56
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Guys, guys. If anyone is making it out of the Framework it's totally gotta be Evil Fitz first and foremost. It's a Marvel staple to have alt universe amoral scientist superbastards running around inflicting horrors on our world. Ultimate Reed, AoA Beast, Framework Fitz. For the science.
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Apr 29, 2017 15:35
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STAC Goat posted:And if this Fitz escapes the Framework with Ophelia than he is presumably the real Fitz in a new body and the old Fitz body is just brain dead like Mace presumably was. Because its all one Fitz. I would be fascinated if Hydra Fitz escapes the framework via a synthesized body and Shield Fitz also wakes up. It would be an interesting twist on the hardware vs host concept. Is it Fitz because of his brain or is it Fitz because of his soul? Can consciousness be duplicated? What is real life? You'd also have LMD Fitz still running around. I'm all for more Iian de Caestecker. LMD May blew herself and LMD Coulson up, right? Who else was in that LMDeath sphere?
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Apr 29, 2017 16:42
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Fitz, villain for season 5 would be cool. I don't think anyone will come out of the Framework, Daisy will probably change it so all the people in there live out their lives happily. I want Ward to stay in it, so they come up with another way to bring him back in season 5. I say, Kree infiltrator.
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Apr 29, 2017 16:42
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I think Fitz comes back "real Fitz" but haunted. I think all of them will remember what went on in the framework but with their previous self in charge. The argument over what the simulated people are and whether they can come into the real world reminds me of Quorra becoming human at the end of Tron Legacy.
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Apr 29, 2017 16:44
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Bakshi's going to move on her like a bitch.
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Apr 30, 2017 01:47
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Darth Brooks posted:I think Fitz comes back "real Fitz" but haunted. I think all of them will remember what went on in the framework but with their previous self in charge. The argument over what the simulated people are and whether they can come into the real world reminds me of Quorra becoming human at the end of Tron Legacy. Yeah, it's this. Everyone else will realize that changing their "regret" would've made things a lot worse for everyone (except Mack I guess, he's just gonna be real sad), but Fitz is gonna realize that he could've really easily ended up as an evil nazi doctor. I'll be really surprised if any of the simulated people make it out of the framework.
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Apr 30, 2017 12:36
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Like I said, I think the season will end with the Framework being left active because it's full of "real people" now. Either SHIELD will destroy the "Real Boy" machine or it will turn out to have some horrific drawback. Fitz and Mack will decide to stay mostly in there, Fitz out of a sense of responsibility, Mack out of love for his "daughter". Someone will act as a liaison between the two worlds.
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Apr 30, 2017 13:10
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Mymla posted:Yeah, it's this. Ward should come back, either recreated as good guy human or (more interestingly) as a series of LMDs.
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Apr 30, 2017 19:13
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If Neal McDonough wasn't busy hamming it up on the CW DC shows, he could come back as a series of LMDs based on Dum Dum Duggan, which is canonical.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:18
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sticklefifer posted:Better comparison might be the San Junipero episode of Black Mirror. With regard to the people we see plugged in (and dying in the framework), this feels like the perfect comparison. These people are 'real', just transported into the framework.
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Apr 30, 2017 23:50
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Red Oktober posted:With regard to the people we see plugged in (and dying in the framework), this feels like the perfect comparison. These people are 'real', just transported into the framework. Not that this sidesteps the argument, though. (Black Mirror spoilers) You can still question how "real" people uploaded to San Junipero are. Actual Kelly and Yorkie are just as easily dead, replaced by soulless digital copies in a VR simulation. It's every transporter argument ever. There's no definitive answer given or attempted. I'd say Framework people are as "real" as anyone, for similar reasons to most cyberpunk narratives. Consciousness isn't some known material...it's an inscrutable phenomenon, both in living humans and fictional robots. We accept that other people are conscious because they behave as if they are. "People" inside the Framework are honestly no different.
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May 1, 2017 01:32
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Yeah, I'm open to the idea that the people in the framework are "alive" because like, "they are because they are" or something. Like, we eat animals because they don't talk to us or anything to make us feel weird about it. But the second an animal starts showing some "human" traits like caring or nurturing or just chilling out and having fun we freak out and don't want anything to do with eating them. That's our nature and we kind of see "life" and "consciousness" as the idea of something have feelings. If tomatoes grew faces or made a sound when we plucked them we'd be hosed. So like, Hope clearly loves Mack and Ward clearly loves Skye and Caulson and Mace are willing to die for these people and Tripp is just like the real Tripp! So sure, I totally buy that by some kind of sense of existence these people are real and turning off the Framework would be a horrific holocaust. But I still don't really buy the notion that they're some kind of alternate universe people who Aida tapped into or something. That's just Aida's nonsense story to Fitz and sci-fi fans getting a little overexcited, IMO. Aida and the Darkhold just somehow created life the same way Stark seemingly did with his AIs and the same way Radcliffe probably did with Aida (and maybe the help of the Darkhold). STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 01:49 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 01:47
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Got through season 2 in my rewatch. I miss Bobbi and Hunter. I also miss everyone making GBS threads on Hunter.
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May 1, 2017 03:14
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ynohtna posted:Michael J Fox does not star in the second Teen Wolf film. It was Jason Bateman who wore the fur instead! You are right and I am ashamed as I have both on DVD.
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May 1, 2017 04:35
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Nothing has been announced yet, but signs point to the show getting one final season, I can imagine that they will tie it in with Inhumans that will also be on ABC.
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May 1, 2017 06:47
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