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Phi230 posted:And Abbadon's Gate is a reference to warhammer 40k Caliban could be the Homeworld of the Dark Angels or the Mutant from X-men.
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Apr 30, 2017 00:57
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twistedmentat posted:Caliban could be the Homeworld of the Dark Angels or the Mutant from X-men. The movement to throw California out of the UN.
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Apr 30, 2017 01:06
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Since that one dude who played Asher from Spartacus is in the show I'd be okay with a book named Jupiter's Cock.
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Apr 30, 2017 01:33
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If proto Eros took on Julie's personality, then that means the proto monster got some child's personality...which explains why it was so child-like with its single minded focus on getting what it wants. hosed up. 
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Apr 30, 2017 03:30
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Phi230 posted:You're assigning malice to an automaton. It wasn't meant to encounter multi-cellular life, let alone sentient life. It was doing its best to do what it was programmed to do. If it’s an automaton, it also follows that it cannot be a victim, so the Caliban metaphor doesn’t make sense either way around.
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Apr 30, 2017 05:39
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Is there a The Expanse book title generator? Because, if not, there should be. Here's mine: JERICHO'S WALLS Platystemon posted:...so the Caliban metaphor doesn’t make sense either way around. Yes it does: flosofl posted:It's clearly a reference to Caliban from The Tempest. The half-human/half-monster that Prospero tries to control/enslave because Caliban is too dangerous otherwise.
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Apr 30, 2017 06:48
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I’ve seen The Tempest live in theatre and remember it fine. So what? Either The Expanse’s Caliban is sapient and exploiting it is wrong, but nothing nearly as wrong as what it itself tried to do. Or it’s not sapient and there’s nothing unethical about exploiting it, as long as you don’t harm or endanger other humans when you do it. In neither scenario do I weep for Caliban. Shakespeare’s Caliban was clearly sapient and also not attempting to kill several hundred times as many people as Hitler. It’s a fine title, but I don’t think the similarities run deep. Platystemon fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Apr 30, 2017 |
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Apr 30, 2017 06:56
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God drat. There's a difference between a loose metaphor and a strict metaphor. Do you want to go into the same level of detail for the Leviathan from the Bible in relation to the Protomolecule, or how the real Cibola isn't just like the place in Cibola Burns, too?
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Apr 30, 2017 07:57
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Did you read any of the posts upthread? My disagreement isn’t with the writers. Platystemon fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Apr 30, 2017 |
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Apr 30, 2017 08:45
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Platystemon posted:Did you read any of the posts upthread? I did, but you said the "Caliban metaphor doesn't work either way", not that those poster's interpretations didn't work and I felt compelled to respond. It's all good. Just a matter of misleading phrasing I suppose. Longbaugh01 fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Apr 30, 2017 |
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Apr 30, 2017 09:54
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Longbaugh01 posted:I did, but you said the "Caliban metaphor doesn't work either way", not that those poster's interpretations didn't work and I felt compelled to respond. Why didn't you just make that distinction after I first replied to you since that was obviously what I meant instead of going all I'VE SEEN THE TEMPEST IN PERSON and doubling-down responding about the semantics of victim-hood? I misunderstood your misunderstanding.  I thought “either way around” made it clear which metaphor I was talking about. I was talking about Macdeo Lurjtux’s aborigine metaphor and the inverted version suggested by Number Ten Cocks. I was trying to establish that my issue was not with tthe allusion made by the title/project name; I understood that. As for “I'VE SEEN THE TEMPEST IN PERSON”, what did you want me to say? “I’ve read The Tempest”? That’s not strictly true. “I am familiar with the content of The Tempest”? That sounds more condescending, if anything. To be clear, all I was trying to say is that accusing Number Ten Cocks of assigning malice to an automaton is unfair. If only for the sake of discussion, NTC had to assume it wasn’t an automaton. If it were an automaton, the metaphor collapses and the discussion is moot. Platystemon fucked around with this message at 10:56 on Apr 30, 2017 |
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Apr 30, 2017 10:43
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Platystemon posted:To be clear, all I was trying to say is that accusing Number Ten Cocks of assigning malice to an automaton is unfair. In my experience all accusations against me are unfair, even if the jurors never see it that way.
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Apr 30, 2017 13:14
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Platystemon posted:If it’s an automaton, it also follows that it cannot be a victim, so the Caliban metaphor doesn’t make sense either way around. edit: didn't read the whole thread. tooterfish fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Apr 30, 2017 |
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Apr 30, 2017 13:31
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crazypeltast52 posted:This. Those two on shore leave hit every bar, brothel and gambling den when they aren't on duty.
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Apr 30, 2017 16:42
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coyo7e posted:It would get really tiresome to have Amos break down in tears or attack someone every time he goes to a brothel though, and Texan Indian is a little too over the top for me in the show. In the book you could pretty much forget he was around, except for his drug binges (which the show showed, but censored badly) In the books, Amos actually does fine in brothels? He talks about how it is an honest profession and he employs sex workers often without issues. Children are Amos's hangup - hurting children makes him real, real mad. Also, what drug binges?
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Apr 30, 2017 17:48
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Doresain posted:Also, what drug binges?
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Apr 30, 2017 17:52
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Doresain posted:In the books, Amos actually does fine in brothels? He talks about how it is an honest profession and he employs sex workers often without issues. Children are Amos's hangup - hurting children makes him real, real mad. Yeah, the A Team does just fine whilst tearing it up portside. I mean, they gamble all their money away, get drunk, and occasionally snort space coke off of strippers but... have you EVER seen a sailor on shore leave? As long as they aren't getting arrested for 13 different felonies at once it's pretty tame in comparison. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Apr 30, 2017 |
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Apr 30, 2017 17:54
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Eiba posted:Honestly, you had a lot of book readers asking that exact question after reading that book. Going back to this, how many goons got real mad that no one named Dulcinea appears in the very first show episode? Making the connection later is what made me realize this show is brilliant.
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Apr 30, 2017 19:29
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Platystemon posted:I’ve seen The Tempest live in theatre and remember it fine. So what? Caliban isn't the protomolecule. Caliban is the PM/Human hybrid. They specifically have the codename of Caliban. Which OBVIOUSLY has agency. As a result of the human part. How much more does the show need to hit you over the head? I mean what the gently caress.
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May 1, 2017 15:17
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flosofl posted:Caliban isn't the protomolecule. Where was this agency made obvious on the show? At what point did it violate its programmed parameters, the parameters that you don't know because they haven't been explained? (Destroying the lab when released only counts as incontrovertible evidence if you think a wild animal that hasn't been tamed has agency.) Even if you could know that it did violate those parameters knowingly, how do you know that wasn't due to remote control by the promolecule on Venus rather than the human part? Did the show hit you too hard on the head?
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May 1, 2017 15:33
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Number Ten Cocks posted:Where was this agency made obvious on the show? The part where it scratched at, then ripped out & threw away, its failsafe bomb, probably counts  The manner in which it did so seemed relatively human-ish and not very protomolecule-y, but obviously only the writers know for sure what was intended.
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May 1, 2017 16:45
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bitprophet posted:The part where it scratched at, then ripped out & threw away, its failsafe bomb, probably counts I don't think the writers of any show know what was intended for anything. Good TV seems to be an accident most of the time. Best of Both Worlds was written because the writer was leaving Star Trek after that season so he wrote a big cliffhanger as a gently caress you to whoever had to fix it the next season.
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May 1, 2017 16:54
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bitprophet posted:The part where it scratched at, then ripped out & threw away, its failsafe bomb, probably counts Um, ok. It's definitely weird that a protomolecule hybrid constrained not to change shape or morph would use its claws to remove a bomb. Are you envisioning a small child force grown to full, mutated size by an alien force (modified and restricted to some degree by human technology) that is known to be able to incorporate and control human minds it comes into contact with as deciding, all child-like and human-y, that it wants to go on a rampage and slice people up? Number Ten Cocks fucked around with this message at 17:04 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 16:53
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Cojawfee posted:I don't think the writers of any show know what was intended for anything. Good TV seems to be an accident most of the time. Best of Both Worlds was written because the writer was leaving Star Trek after that season so he wrote a big cliffhanger as a gently caress you to whoever had to fix it the next season. Uh that's complete bullshit? Michael Piller continued writing for TNG through season 6, did 2 seasons of DS9, 3 of Voyager, and then wrote the Insurrection movie... I really don't think that was a gently caress you to Star Trek...
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May 1, 2017 17:31
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Best of Both Worlds was written to give Patrick Stewart an out, he wasn't really happy on Trek at the time. Since he decided to come back they wrote part two appropriately.
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May 1, 2017 17:38
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Patrick "Fuckin Patrick Stewart" Stewart, owns
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May 1, 2017 17:52
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Number Ten Cocks posted:Going back to this, how many goons got real mad that no one named Dulcinea appears in the very first show episode? Eiba fucked around with this message at 18:59 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 18:57
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Number Ten Cocks posted:Um, ok. It's definitely weird that a protomolecule hybrid constrained not to change shape or morph would use its claws to remove a bomb. Surely it matters as least as much, if not more, how the other characters view the PM monsters. Holden sees them as bio-weapons that need to be destroyed. Prax sees them as (potentially) his daughter, that can be saved and still have humanity.
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May 2, 2017 15:15
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Duck Rodgers posted:Surely it matters as least as much, if not more, how the other characters view the PM monsters. Holden sees them as bio-weapons that need to be destroyed. Prax sees them as (potentially) his daughter, that can be saved and still have humanity. I don't think he actually does, this was just that dumb zombie movie trope where the dad hesitates to blow the head off his little flesh eating princess when she gets bitten because she'll be the one and only one who can be reasoned with. He did finally throw the core, he's not actually that dumb.
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May 2, 2017 15:33
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why couldnt they have floated the nuke using its thrusters outside the breech and get the monster to jump out that way.
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May 2, 2017 15:41
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ptkfvk posted:why couldnt they have floated the nuke using its thrusters outside the breech and get the monster to jump out that way. Needed the core unshielded.
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May 2, 2017 15:41
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Is this gonna be the thread for a year?
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May 2, 2017 15:47
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AlternateAccount posted:Is this gonna be the thread for a year? Yes.
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May 2, 2017 17:46
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Wait its not coming back for a year? drat poo poo. I guess my summer reading will be the novels then.
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May 3, 2017 04:28
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Baronjutter posted:Even Andromeda? Especially Andromeda
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May 3, 2017 15:39
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Yo momma so fat she used the Rocinante's drive torch as a tanning bed.
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May 3, 2017 15:51
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twistedmentat posted:Wait its not coming back for a year? drat poo poo. I guess my summer reading will be the novels then. I watched s1 after it had already ended and it still felt like over a year for s2.
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May 3, 2017 20:14
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Rewatching S1, and there's a surprising amount of far future foreshadowing in early episodes via character dialogue. Even if we never reach book 5 we'll have these early bits, I guess. They really dropped the presumably protomolecule-inspired amor tech of the guys who boarded the Donnager in "CQB" without ever explaining where it went. It's not on the Protogen station later, it's not in use by the security at the Ganymede lab, and there's no hint that it didn't just disappear down a hole. I guess this might count as early foreshadowing, too, since I don't think there's anything like it in the books except some not very plot relevant materials science advances very late in the series based on PM observations.
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May 5, 2017 22:33
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Doresain posted:In the books, Amos actually does fine in brothels? He talks about how it is an honest profession and he employs sex workers often without issues. Children are Amos's hangup - hurting children makes him real, real mad. He's not a junkie but pilots in the expanse universe tend to be hopped to the gills on on-demand uppers and downers as the case warrants. coyo7e fucked around with this message at 05:43 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 05:40
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Grand Fromage posted:Best of Both Worlds was written to give Patrick Stewart an out, he wasn't really happy on Trek at the time. Since he decided to come back they wrote part two appropriately. Stewart is of course awesome in anything and was a great captain, but it's pretty wild to consider what the show would have been like if he'd been killed in BoBW part 2 and Riker took over as captain. Next Gen didn't really have a character with a tortured past, the closest would be Riker with the Pegasus and Picard when Borg are involved, but Riker living with a captaincy built on the grave of Picard would be interesting. If nothing else, it's what they ought to be exploring in Star Trek comics or something.
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May 6, 2017 05:45
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