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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
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65 | 21.52% |
| Total: | 229 votes | ||
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twodot posted:Maybe, but the reason they picked 15 is because English speakers tend to use decimal number systems. $15/hour isn't an actually livable wage in Seattle, it was just an achievable number. We'll need to continue to push on minimum wage increases. Both of you are still  , especially Majorian because his idea is to avoid interrogating why those cities picked $15/hr.
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Apr 30, 2017 21:58
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Brainiac Five posted:Both of you are still Look at this blatant deflection. You're such a dickens. 
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Apr 30, 2017 21:58
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Majorian posted:Look at this blatant deflection. You're such a dickens. Can you explain why activists are pushing for $15/hr? It's okay to admit that you don't know, and to admit you were both the first and second times, and admit that your life has about the value of a bag of Cheezits, though I won't hold my breath on the last two.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:00
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Condiv posted:i didn't say i think trump's idea is a good plan for getting rid of nafta, but i'm not gonna cry any tears if it's gone. i think it should be phased out No. That changes nothing. What we need to do is bring back unions, offer protections for workers (basically the Nordic Model) and stimulate the economy (minimum wage increases, government spending, what have you). We also absolutely need to take care of tax dodgers and global warming, those directly relate to economic ills which will prob ease the hate NAFTA gets. Phasing it out will do nothing but cause retaliatory trade wars.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:00
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Brainiac Five posted:Looking forward to the apologetics for this. Since this is from a while back, you were responding to someone talking about minimum wage protecting against police brutality. I'm pretty sure that when that post was made, I remember some people actually disagreed with it (because it is indeed absurd to think higher wages will stop police brutality). I could be wrong, but I remember that specific post and I think I remember some push-back against it. edit: It's also a valid point that higher wages would have a positive effect towards minorities being able to push-back against police brutality, though I would advise against making that sort of point (even if it's technically true) because it can easily be interpreted as downplaying the need for other kinds of help.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:00
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Ytlaya posted:Since this is from a while back, you were responding to someone talking about minimum wage protecting against police brutality. I'm pretty sure that when that post was made, I remember some people actually disagreed with it (because it is indeed absurd to think higher wages will stop police brutality). I could be wrong, but I remember that specific post and I think I remember some push-back against it. There was not, as a matter of fact. I mean, I understand exactly why there's never any push-back against these things until it gets to the level of a rudatron or NFS. Ytlaya posted:edit: It's also a valid point that higher wages would have a positive effect towards minorities being able to push-back against police brutality, though I would advise against making that sort of point (even if it's technically true) because it can easily be interpreted as downplaying the need for other kinds of help. It's also not a valid point to use because it reinforces the notion of colorblind solutions to racism.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:02
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Brainiac Five posted:A cool thing about the $15/hr minimum wage proposal is that no Bernout can explain why that number was picked. who cares
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Apr 30, 2017 22:06
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Homeless Friend posted:who cares Those who forget their history are condemned to repeat the 11th grade, kid.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:06
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SSNeoman posted:No. That changes nothing. nope, sorry, nafta is lovely republican trade policy that only helps the rich. if you wanna renegotiate it into something that actually protects labor instead of something that destroys it, and all the other bullshit that's fine. but otherwise it's gotta go Condiv fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Apr 30, 2017 |
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Apr 30, 2017 22:06
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Brainiac Five posted:Those who forget their history are condemned to repeat the 11th grade, kid.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:07
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Brainiac Five posted:Can you explain why activists are pushing for $15/hr? It's okay to admit that you don't know, and to admit you were I was actually 100% right in what I posted - that is why there has been a national push for $15/hour minimum wages, as that politifact article clearly states. That said, I don't know why they pushed for $15/hour at the municipal level originally. But I'll bet you can tell me! 
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Apr 30, 2017 22:07
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So, should Democrats take even a $12/hr minimum wage out of their platforms in order to concentrate on combating police brutality? Why is $15/hr so egregious? No one is saying that going up from $12/hr to $15/hr means giving any less attention to these issues.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:09
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it was picked because it's higher than 7.25 
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Apr 30, 2017 22:08
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Oh did they finally graduate you out of despair at having someone old enough to rent a car still in high school? Majorian posted:I was actually 100% right in what I posted - that is why there has been a national push for $15/hour minimum wages, as that politifact article clearly states. Okay, so you refuse to admit you were wrong, and so you will have to live without knowing, since your apparent humility is an obvious posture.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:08
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Brainiac Five posted:Oh did they finally graduate you out of despair at having someone old enough to rent a car still in high school?
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Apr 30, 2017 22:09
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Brainiac Five posted:Can you explain why activists are pushing for $15/hr? It's okay to admit that you don't know, and to admit you were Effectronica, chill dude. He's right. The problem is twofold. The first is the Velocity of Money. That sucks in America . All economies depend on an economic cycle, you pay people to produce work, people use money to buy goods, producers of goods pay money to government and so on. It's called (in an ideal world) the Virtuous Cycle of Economics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT3cm2eTuSg. The issue is that this cycle has slowed down or stopped within the past decade alone. The 2008 crisis had us dedicate enormous bailouts for people who essentially mishandled the economy on a grossly negligent scale. This was a necessary evil (no matter what people in this thread say) and our economy has been back on track, but we don't have anything to stop it from happening again besides maybe Dodd-Frank. And that may soon be repealed so... Problem 2 is wage stagnation. The amount people earn has not risen with inflation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_wages Arguments against the $15 increase are frankly nonesense in that scheme of things. Out minimum wage does not allow for people to have a standard of living and we should not be basing economic policy based on that. Yet we do. That's bad. Increasing wages to $15 is a band-aid solution, but it will help the middle class while also stimulating the economy. VV Dude. Dude.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:11
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galenanorth posted:So, should Democrats take even a $12/hr minimum wage out of their platforms in order to concentrate on combating police brutality? Why is $15/hr so egregious? No one is saying that going up from $12/hr to $15/hr means giving any less attention to these issues. Nobody has said $15/hr is bad, either. These kinds of accusations suggest that you are unwilling to listen to anyone that disagrees with you, since you assume that the disagreement comes from a desire to tear down everything you hold precious.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:11
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Condiv posted:nope, sorry, nafta is lovely republican trade policy that only helps the rich. if you wanna renegotiate it into something that actually protects labor instead of something that destroys it, and all the other bullshit that's fine. but otherwise it's gotta go Sorry automotive workers, Condiv says it's your time. You had a good run, but welp. Sorry farmers, poo poo hasn't been swell for you due to corn subsidies, so this is really just the pragmatic approach if you think about it. Also dear Canada and Mexico, please don't fistfuck us. That article is wrong btw. It's slanted af and ignores or straight-up lies about facts. I am speaking only for the US. Mexico is a different story. Seraphic Neoman fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Apr 30, 2017 |
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Apr 30, 2017 22:12
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Brainiac Five posted:Would you describe "professionals" as rootless cosmopolitan elites divorced from Real America? As an actual answer to this, anyone who makes enough money to have no realistic concerns for their own economic security is going to inherently have different political concerns and priorities than someone who is either economically insecure or faces the realistic risk of future economic insecurity. As someone who has been surrounded by both educated professionals and less educated people at different points in my life, it is very obvious that the former maybe care about issues like poverty on an intellectual level, but they don't feel any real pressure towards fixing it. This is a large reason many liberals are so fond of slow incrementalism; they want to fix these issues on paper, but they aren't willing to take any risks in order to do so.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:12
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SSNeoman posted:This was a necessary evil (no matter what people in this thread say) and our economy has been back on track, but we don't have anything to stop it from happening again besides maybe Dodd-Frank. And that may soon be repealed so... a lot of people are angry because the economy is not back on track. we got the gig-economy instead of a real one thanks to the idiots who hosed everything up getting the majority of stimulus spending. and i'm doubtful that bailing out wall street was ever the right move. especially since our political class is so beholden to wall street firms they refuse to break up too big to fail banks
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Apr 30, 2017 22:14
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I... does Effectronic argue people do not deserve $15?
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Apr 30, 2017 22:16
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Why not vote for the GOP if your goal is to keep people poor and vulnerable.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:17
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steinrokkan posted:I... does Effectronic argue people do not deserve $15? nay, just that those who forget political trivia are doomed to be trivial
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Apr 30, 2017 22:17
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I can't be bothered to follow their reasoning, is it a variation on "you propose a good thing for the wrong reasons" or what
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Apr 30, 2017 22:18
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Condiv posted:a lot of people are angry because the economy is not back on track. we got the gig-economy instead of a real one thanks to the idiots who hosed everything up getting the majority of stimulus spending. and i'm doubtful that bailing out wall street was ever the right move. especially since our political class is so beholden to wall street firms they refuse to break up too big to fail banks Okay Condiv let's do this poo poo. Let's play your scenario on what would happen if we didn't bail out the banks. I'm tired of this economc truthiness.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:19
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SSNeoman posted:Sorry automotive workers, Condiv says it's your time. You had a good run, but welp. i don't really buy the whole "NAFTA is necessary and phasing it out will doom us all" bs. quote:That article is wrong btw. It's slanted af and ignores or straight-up lies about facts. it's an opinion piece, of course it takes a side. also, provide examples of the straight-up lies?
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Apr 30, 2017 22:18
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SSNeoman posted:Effectronica, chill dude. He's right. again. That's three strikes! $15/hr was the living wage, back in the 1990s, for a single parent with a single child. It became the centerpiece of the movement for a higher national minimum wage for that reason, especially after being publicized in Barbara Ehrenreich's book about living off the minimum wage, Nickel and Dimed. Nationally, the current equivalent would be about $25/hr. Note that Ehrenreich didn't insist that this be entirely via cash, because the standard of living does vary significantly from place to place ($15/hr still would be a living wage for a single parent in many more rural parts of the country) and because single parents with multiple children would need more money. (And in current terms, that would drive the minimum wage above the current median household income to take that into account). I am sure the brain trust in this thread will take the preceding statements to be an attack on $15/hr. The point, however, is that that number has a meaning, and it has a reasoning behind it, and it has an inspiring message behind it, where most Bernout justifications for it don't. This is important because "15 bucks an hour because 15 bucks an hour" is not compelling compared to "22 bucks an hour so no child ever goes hungry or without shoes", and because supplementary housing and childcare programs to meet the gap would especially benefit people skeptical that the current Berniecrat message leaves minorities out in the cold or as second-class citizens.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:19
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SSNeoman posted:Okay Condiv let's do this poo poo. Let's play your scenario on what would happen if we didn't bail out the banks. I'm tired of this economc truthiness. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/17/the-miraculous-story-of-iceland/ that being said, i was always in favor of bailing the people out instead Condiv fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Apr 30, 2017 |
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Apr 30, 2017 22:19
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Free trade is good, but not if it is treated as a force of nature rather than a social construct. All FT institutions need an arbitration and deliberation organ, or they are worthless - including the NAFTA.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:19
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steinrokkan posted:I... does Effectronic argue people do not deserve $15? I'm arguing that the Czech people need to be gelded.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:22
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THATS the loving buildup to the $15/hour thing, are you loving kidding me
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Apr 30, 2017 22:22
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Brainiac Five posted:A cool thing about the $15/hr minimum wage proposal is that no Bernout can explain why that number was picked. Actually, the UAW/CUAW made the argument/article during the '09 restructuring of GM and Chrysler that it was the current minimum for a livable wage that can still allow enough for retirement. Also, at that time, it was calculated that if minimum wage increases had kept pace with inflation since the late sixties, the minimum would currently be around $17+. Mister Facetious fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Apr 30, 2017 |
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Apr 30, 2017 22:22
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Brainiac Five posted:I'm arguing that the Czech people need to be gelded. Thank you for your perspective, racists are a long overlooked part of the debate.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:23
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Calibanibal posted:THATS the loving buildup to the $15/hour thing, are you loving kidding me Well, now I know what it takes to get you to make a genuine post instead of smearing CSPAM poo poo all over the walls.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:23
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ive been refreshing every 10 seconds for an hour to catch the big reveal of the whole $15/hour plot, gently caress you mass effect 3 all over again
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Apr 30, 2017 22:23
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Condiv posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/17/the-miraculous-story-of-iceland/ Holy gently caress you are naive as all hell. Iceland's banks do not deal in the global currency nor are their trade contracts as closely tied to the rest of the world as the US is. Iceland also uses the Nordic Model for economics while the US does not. This is some Laissez-faire poo poo jfc.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:23
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Brainiac Five posted:
Which is why, in your fevered imagination, Clinton was right to oppose even a $15 minimum wage, much less a $22 one. Also trying to ding Bernies on lacking an inspiring message is pretty lol when you're a dogged a Clinton apologist.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:23
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You can't explain why the minimum wage should be $15 You can't explain why the minimum wage should be $14 You can't explain why the minimum wage should be $13 You can't explain why the minimum wage should be $12 You can't explain why the minimum wage should be $11 You can't explain why the minimum wage should be $10 You can't explain why the minimum wage should be $9 You can't explain why the minimum wage should be $8 You can't explain why the minimum wage should be $7 You can't explain why the minimum wage should be $6 You can't explain why the minimum wage should be $5 You can't explain why the minimum wage should be $4 You can't explain why the minimum wage should be $3 You can't explain why the minimum wage should be $2 You can't explain why the minimum wage should be $1 You can't explain why the minimum wage should be $0
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Apr 30, 2017 22:24
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I support a $0 wage
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Apr 30, 2017 22:24
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steinrokkan posted:Thank you for your perspective, racists are a long overlooked part of the debate. Ah yes, the well-known racism that afflicts white people. I've been longing for more posts about how "centrists" attack white people, those are always fun. Majorian posted:Which is why, in your fevered imagination, Clinton was right to oppose even a $15 minimum wage, much less a $22 one. LMAO.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:26
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