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Azathoth posted:That's fair, but I guess I don't really think of Bubba as "neoliberal" He literally said "the era of big government is over. "
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# ? Apr 30, 2017 19:33 |
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# ? May 13, 2024 07:02 |
Pener Kropoopkin posted:He literally said "the era of big government is over. "
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# ? Apr 30, 2017 20:04 |
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:He literally said "the era of big government is over. " context, of course, being that his just lost in the midterm in ways that have never been rivaled. I'm sure if he just said "socialism now!" he could have saved welfare
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# ? Apr 30, 2017 20:07 |
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zegermans posted:context, of course, being that his just lost in the midterm in ways that have never been rivaled. I'm sure if he just said "socialism now!" he could have saved welfare He said that in 1996.
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# ? Apr 30, 2017 20:10 |
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Azathoth posted:It seems like neoliberals are what happens when someone is both authoritarian and leftist but has spent their political career assiduously avoiding accusations of being a COMMUNIST or a SOCIALIST by being pro-laissez faire capitalism. That's kind of what I was getting at. I think what offends most blue collar red state types is idiots that will talk a big game, tell them they're the problems with the country, they're the ones that need to change, and then jet off back to their mansion. This is kinda different than say a Bernie Sanders or a Dennis Kucinich who will go back to their districts, speak to people about the problems facing the country, and why their forms of government programs would help the working class.,
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# ? Apr 30, 2017 20:15 |
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People don't go neoliberal because they're afraid of being called a socialist, it's what they actually believe.
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# ? Apr 30, 2017 20:22 |
Pener Kropoopkin posted:People don't go neoliberal because they're afraid of being called a socialist, it's what they actually believe. I think we're starting to see it change though, what with people like Bernie Sanders and Keith Ellison owning the socialist label and not getting immediately ousted from their seats, a lot of the "reds under the bed" type of messaging just isn't effective. Hopefully that keeps happening.
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# ? Apr 30, 2017 20:53 |
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The truth is very little elected officials hold any true ideology beyond what is enforced by their own perceptions of electability (which can easily be warped). "Neo-liberalism" is the default setting for most because it's as bland and unoffensive as possible. The stupid thing is that the average person is far less right wing than the democratic party thinks.
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# ? Apr 30, 2017 21:14 |
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zegermans posted:context, of course, being that his just lost in the midterm in ways that have never been rivaled. I'm sure if he just said "socialism now!" he could have saved welfare 2010 lol
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# ? Apr 30, 2017 21:43 |
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FuzzySkinner posted:I think what offends most blue collar red state types is idiots that will talk a big game, tell them they're the problems with the country, they're the ones that need to change, and then jet off back to their mansion. quote:You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? (Laughter/applause)
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# ? Apr 30, 2017 22:05 |
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While there are certainly true believers, the ideological and political arguments are mostly an ex post facto explanation to provide a facade over what the donor class wants: to make themselves wealthier.
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# ? Apr 30, 2017 22:05 |
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comedyblissoption posted:While there are certainly true believers, the ideological and political arguments are mostly an ex post facto explanation to provide a facade over what the donor class wants: to make themselves wealthier. It's also important to keep in mind that in most cases, our elected officials are themselves capitalists or at least wealthy professionals. They have their own class interests despite their voting constituencies. Pener Kropoopkin fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Apr 30, 2017 |
# ? Apr 30, 2017 22:06 |
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comedyblissoption posted:i'm sure hillary did nothing like that to confirm their worst stereotypes of out of touch coastal elites What about her statement is false? It was stupid to say out loud, but spot on for his screaming hordes at the rallies.
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# ? Apr 30, 2017 22:36 |
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If anything the main problem with the statement was that the dems were unable to own it largely because their appeal was meant to try to turn away voters who were the worse deplorables (white flight suburbans). Also their immediate backpedaling didn't help.
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# ? Apr 30, 2017 23:04 |
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comedyblissoption posted:i'm sure hillary did nothing like that to confirm their worst stereotypes of out of touch coastal elites Whats amazing about that quote is that she hits the nail perfectly on the head, identifying exactly the segment of Trump supporters who could be appealed to with a little effort, and then proceeded to continue ignoring and failing to empathize with 'the other basket' for the entire election. And, of course, the quote displays the usual Hillary tactic of insulting and attacking a broad swathe of people first, thus tainting everything that comes after it.
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# ? Apr 30, 2017 23:20 |
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what a dumb
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# ? Apr 30, 2017 23:27 |
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Basically if she'd just not said the first part it would have been a good quote, after all clinton's not a stranger to racist pandering lol
Forums Terrorist fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Apr 30, 2017 |
# ? Apr 30, 2017 23:28 |
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Whats amazing about that quote is that she hits the nail perfectly on the head, identifying exactly the segment of Trump supporters who could be appealed to with a little effort, and then proceeded to continue ignoring and failing to empathize with 'the other basket' for the entire election. And, of course, the quote displays the usual Hillary tactic of insulting and attacking a broad swathe of people first, thus tainting everything that comes after it. [/quote] Trump pounced on it too, and used it in ads. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPfGxdx7dK8 But this is something a lot of lefties were calling out before this election. Hillary's surrogates kinda did the same tactic to Hillary's leftwing critics. It actually weakened actual claims of sexism/racism. Also? Unlike the Left, the right doesn't give a poo poo, and will own up to the label.
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# ? Apr 30, 2017 23:30 |
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Talmonis posted:What about her statement is false? It was stupid to say out loud, but spot on for his screaming hordes at the rallies. also the net of her statement is essentially cast super wide to denigrate conservative voters and independents.
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# ? May 1, 2017 00:31 |
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also if you want to believe what she is saying is factual, please provide any statistical evidence absurdly attempting to objectively define bigotry that also doesn't ironically show her own supporters are similarly bigoted
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# ? May 1, 2017 00:47 |
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Venom Snake posted:The truth is very little elected officials hold any true ideology beyond what is enforced by their own perceptions of electability (which can easily be warped). "Neo-liberalism" is the default setting for most because it's as bland and unoffensive as possible. The stupid thing is that the average person is far less right wing than the democratic party thinks. That is ideology at work.
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# ? May 1, 2017 00:53 |
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since when has this thread been in D&D?
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# ? May 1, 2017 02:17 |
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Now? E for content: The democratic party (and new labour, the french socialists, etc.) were partly victims of their own success. The post war years saw huge improvements in living standards and social welfare and that made established liberals less focused on class struggle and the rising tide to lift all boats and more invested in other issues of social justice and power politics. The neoliberal consensus emerged at a time when everyone was distracted by culture war issues and the fall of communism and since then has been maintained through inertia and the capture of the old left by monied interests. Neoliberalism is great if you're an educated technocrat and so much of its opposition comes from ignorant assholes that a toxic elitism has been allowed to fester for far too long. The idea that the same rubes who are dead wrong on issues of war, justice, and civil rights might have legitimate greivances on trade and rural infrastructure runs counter to ingrained tribalism and the corresponding failure of the conservative "intellectual" class to address these issues in coherent and humane ways has created a vacuum for frauds and blowhards to claim this bloc instead. Since people like Trump are anathema to educated liberals if any stripe, the only conclusion must be that the people who voted for him are too stupid or evil to listen to. Duckbox fucked around with this message at 02:53 on May 1, 2017 |
# ? May 1, 2017 02:17 |
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Not a Step posted:Whats amazing about that quote is that she hits the nail perfectly on the head, identifying exactly the segment of Trump supporters who could be appealed to with a little effort, and then proceeded to continue ignoring and failing to empathize with 'the other basket' for the entire election. And, of course, the quote displays the usual Hillary tactic of insulting and attacking a broad swathe of people first, thus tainting everything that comes after it. eh around here we're guilty of all this too it's difficult not to lust for death in this era of unmattering
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# ? May 1, 2017 02:55 |
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Condiv posted:since when has this thread been in D&D? whaaaaaaaa...
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# ? May 1, 2017 08:40 |
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comedyblissoption posted:just because you may support some trump policies doesnt make you a bigot. there are legitimate economic grievances when someone is against globalism or illegal immigration and would prefer protectionist policies. The second part of the quote addressed those folks who agreed with that messaging, what little of it there was. The same people, who ignored blatant race baiting, promises of a Muslim registry and other swaggering idiocy that won him his primary. They're people who should have known better, and are more culpable than the morons screaming for Clinton's arrest. comedyblissoption posted:also if you want to believe what she is saying is factual, please provide any statistical evidence absurdly attempting to objectively define bigotry that also doesn't ironically show her own supporters are similarly bigoted Sorry, statistical evidence is no longer a means of determining the truthiness of a subject, according to our new regime. I mean, I'm sure some are good people, but they're not the ones we need to worry about. And come off it. It's blatantly obvious to anyone watching that his are the people demanding a wall to keep "Mexicans" out.
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# ? May 1, 2017 14:52 |
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Talmonis posted:The second part of the quote addressed those folks who agreed with that messaging, what little of it there was. The same people, who ignored blatant race baiting, promises of a Muslim registry and other swaggering idiocy that won him his primary. They're people who should have known better, and are more culpable than the morons screaming for Clinton's arrest. It might be racism, it's also fueled by the fact that companies have exploited Mexican workers to the detriment of American workers. "They took our jobs!" is a cliche thrown around D&D, but it is something that has happened. The most stark example I know of is the IBP meat packing planting in Sioux City, Iowa. Circa 1980, IBP locked out the unionized work force, built a shanty town on company property, and imported Mexican workers to do the jobs a a greatly reduced rate of pay. Eventually the union was broken and even if the American workers were hired back, it wasn't for the same wages and benefits they had enjoyed before. Obviously the villain here is the company, but if you're someone who was displaced by imported labor, it's completely understandable that you would be angry at the immigrant. And the solution to that is not to just point a finger at the American worker and call him a racist.
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# ? May 1, 2017 17:31 |
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SimonCat posted:It might be racism, it's also fueled by the fact that companies have exploited Mexican workers to the detriment of American workers. "They took our jobs!" is a cliche thrown around D&D, but it is something that has happened. The most stark example I know of is the IBP meat packing planting in Sioux City, Iowa. Circa 1980, IBP locked out the unionized work force, built a shanty town on company property, and imported Mexican workers to do the jobs a a greatly reduced rate of pay. Eventually the union was broken and even if the American workers were hired back, it wasn't for the same wages and benefits they had enjoyed before. Agreed. It just astounds me that anyone would trust the idea of protectionism or worker protections coming from the Republican Party. The party who killed their unions, pushed NAFTA, cuts their benefits, openly calls them lazy for being poor and gives the world to the Trumps in the country. Why would you trust a man known for not paying his workers, cheating his clients and being a general shitheel with bringing you prosperity instead of lining his own pockets as he always does? You wouldn't if you were paying the slightest bit of attention. But you might if he "knocks down them uppity scientists a peg or two" and talks poo poo about all the people that sub-rural bumfucks hate. Spite and hate for the educated and progressivism in general were big factors.
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# ? May 1, 2017 18:09 |
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Talmonis posted:Agreed. It just astounds me that anyone would trust the idea of protectionism or worker protections coming from the Republican Party. The party who killed their unions, pushed NAFTA, cuts their benefits, openly calls them lazy for being poor and gives the world to the Trumps in the country. Why would you trust a man known for not paying his workers, cheating his clients and being a general shitheel with bringing you prosperity instead of lining his own pockets as he always does? You wouldn't if you were paying the slightest bit of attention. But you might if he "knocks down them uppity scientists a peg or two" and talks poo poo about all the people that sub-rural bumfucks hate. Spite and hate for the educated and progressivism in general were big factors. And the Democratic party was hand in hand with passing NAFTA and rolling back protections in the name of compromise. If the Democrats don't protect a worker's livelihood, and otherwise have different values and norms, what do they offer? The people get it too. Here's a quote from a 1987 article about the strikes. IBP started as a "small business", it disrupted the the status quo of the meat packing industry, made money for the company, and hosed over the workers. NY Times posted:Iowa Beef was started in 1960 with a $300,000 loan from the Small Business Administration and a strategy for transforming the staid meat-processing business, in which most of the principal cost is labor.
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# ? May 1, 2017 18:22 |
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SimonCat posted:And the Democratic party was hand in hand with passing NAFTA and rolling back protections in the name of compromise. If the Democrats don't protect a worker's livelihood, and otherwise have different values and norms, what do they offer? can't wait for time travel to exist so we can have temporal immigrant workers "us from 15 years ago took our jobs!!!"
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# ? May 1, 2017 18:41 |
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Condiv posted:can't wait for time travel to exist so we can have temporal immigrant workers Not sure what you're getting at here.
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# ? May 1, 2017 19:47 |
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SimonCat posted:Not sure what you're getting at here. it's a south park reference i think
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# ? May 1, 2017 19:49 |
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SimonCat posted:Not sure what you're getting at here. not actually getting at anything, it was just a joke Typo posted:it's a south park reference i think south park did do that didn't they... Condiv fucked around with this message at 20:01 on May 1, 2017 |
# ? May 1, 2017 19:58 |
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Poor people say cringey poo poo all the time.
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# ? May 1, 2017 21:08 |
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Electoral strategy aside, I'm not really comfortable saying that someone willing to sell out their equally powerless neighbors in the hopes of saving themselves isn't a piece of poo poo.
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# ? May 2, 2017 20:20 |
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Electoral strategy aside, I'm not really comfortable saying that someone willing to sell out their equally powerless neighbors in the hopes of saving themselves isn't a piece of poo poo. Pieces of poo poo deserve healthcare, justice, food, and housing too. If you think that basic human rights should be available only to those who "deserve it", you're hardly different from them.
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# ? May 2, 2017 21:14 |
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Main Paineframe posted:Pieces of poo poo deserve healthcare, justice, food, and housing too. If you think that basic human rights should be available only to those who "deserve it", you're hardly different from them. What on Earth made you think I think any of that?
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# ? May 2, 2017 22:27 |
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# ? May 13, 2024 07:02 |
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Edit: wrong thread
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# ? May 21, 2017 18:07 |