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I'd say HARM the remaining fixed radar sites in the dictator's territory. I also want to give the Bulgarians one chance to surrender or defect, given the hopelessness of their position. And I want to seize Kuito airfield. We know Von Hoff has the helicopters for it, given what he used to retrieve the downed Phantom pilots; we also should have a good idea what (if anything) the opposition at Kuito would look like, given we've had a recon asset sitting on top of the base since day one. Once we take it, we use the cargo planes to start shipping in heavier ground forces. If we're not going to hit the ports, we should at least put what passes for the Angolan Navy out of commission by raiding their home base; that ensures they can't come out and interfere with any ships inbound to us or von Hoff, and maybe lets us start sinking ships bringing the dictator new toys to play with. Also, if we have the defecting Kfirs close the airfield they just took off from, we should consider throwing a strike at that base, or at least some cruise missiles.
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May 1, 2017 04:23
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I'm trying to put together an op that focuses on clearing out the radar installations and other threats on the east side. That's easy access to two more mines, and putting together an op near the center gives us an opportunity to get those four Kfirs. The issue is response time; our longest range weapons are cruise missiles that will take around 20 minutes from launch to impact to travel the maximum range to the airport. While not designed explicitly for taking out runways, the massive warheads on the cruise missiles should have enough damage to gently caress up the runway temporarily and prevent additional fighters from taking off. Doing this would require cutting off the access road to the strip instead of the runway itself, as the Kfir's take-off distance doesn't seem to be all that much. The cruise missiles pack enough punch that two of them will do as much damage to the airfield as is even possible in the game (short of nukes). That is if they hit, though, since pretty much everything except SA-2s can target them.
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May 1, 2017 04:37
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Ok, so I'm thinking something like this: Leave the majority of our forces in Lubango. Break them into three groups: two Gripens and two Phantoms on CAP; the Prowler, Saudi Tornadoes with ALARMs and four Gripens with SDBs to go Buk hunting; and all the remaining ground attack guys (minus SK60s who will just die immediately in this environment, but throw in the Mirages with AS.30Ls and the AMX A-11s with GBU-31s) in a third. Baby the Reaper around, maybe send the Sperwer in front of it, to spot things of interest and the instant an unknown target is spotted hang back at maximum spotting range and let someone with standoff weapons prosecute it. Ground attack follows areas the SEAD group clears and blows the crap out of the armored group, especially any artillery. SEAD will need to keep doubling back so we don't get flanked by a one of the SAMs and embarrassed since they're driving around. CAP wanders around probably doing nothing, but since every time we think the Angolans are out of planes a bunch more show up so I don't want to take chances. On the right, we take the VC.10, a pair of CAP Gripens and another pair of CAP Phantoms, and borrow one each of the Pantsir and Shilka groups for paranoia's sake. If the Kfirs show up there, send up everybody to welcome them home. Hopefully that many missiles is enough to stop whatever comes chasing the Kfirs or we have serious problems. Targets of opportunity secondary. Let the Count's forces clean up that stuff. Let's just flatten all the dictator's fancy vehicles so that our ground forces can press the attack, especially with that $15M of party favors it looks like we're buying them.
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May 1, 2017 04:36
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Can we rearm our proposed strike packages to attack the airfield in time before the 24 hours are up? Ideally I want a strike package to go after the air defense network first then rearm to hit the airfield.
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May 1, 2017 04:38
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I do like seeing if the Bulgarians will surrender, because then we don't have to spend 15m on ground forces.
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May 1, 2017 04:41
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I made the outline of a plan from the situation map. It might get more filling in once the intel map comes out, but I'd like to solicit input now. Power crystals' force distribution is about what I was thinking, except with maybe a couple more Phantoms in the east. The theory is that Operation Gestas is all about suppressing the immediate threats to us--the two radar stations, the armored push, Lobito airport--and Operation Dismas is about clearing a line of advance from where the Kfirs take off in Saurimo to where they land--it's not a full destruction (in theory), but blowing the radars and maybe cratering the runway at Luena Airport could give the Kfirs a chance. If it turns out they're launching from Maulange, we can extend Gestas up towards Mussende radar, and suppress Huambe Airport. What do you all think?
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May 1, 2017 04:44
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I honestly don't think the fixed radar installations are a huge threat. Everything we do is roughly as subtle as a brick to the face; at best, if we wiped out all of them we might be able to delay their fighter response times, but they'd probably still know where we were. Granted we have little else for our HARMs to do, but we might as well just not carry them and boost our flight range. I'm also not convinced we have enough time/munitions to take out the armor and an airport in the same operation, let alone doing that on two fronts. Especially since we need to beware rear end in a top hat SAM operators that can launch without spiking our planes, so we're relying on pilots' eyeballs and the newer RWRs that can spot rocket motors to alert us when someone gets shot at. Blindly flying over Angolan territory seems like a great way to lose a bunch of aircraft, or at least trade a bunch of expensive cruise missiles to do literally nothing. Actually that's an interesting idea: what if we try to spot the SAMs by firing cruise missiles at things and seeing where they get shot down? The most American idea I've had yet 
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May 1, 2017 04:58
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Why buy someone else vehicles? We'd get paid more the longer this war goes on and it's not like they don't bankroll the majority of the lithium themselves. gently caress 'em. Get those defectors, bomb a port to encourage our Lithium to be purchased.
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May 1, 2017 05:01
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I figure its a loan, not a gift.
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May 1, 2017 05:00
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Gamerofthegame posted:Why buy someone else vehicles? We'd get paid more the longer this war goes on and it's not like they don't bankroll the majority of the lithium themselves. I figure since they're the ones taking and holding the bloody ground, they need all the help they can get!
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May 1, 2017 05:01
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Gamerofthegame posted:Why buy someone else vehicles? We'd get paid more the longer this war goes on and it's not like they don't bankroll the majority of the lithium themselves. because the longer we are here the more planes we lose and we need ground forces to even take the mines
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May 1, 2017 05:05
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Buy them the tanks, because 15 million so that they can handle a little more ground stuff themselves is worth us not having to task as many elements to ground attack. All we'd have to lose is one Phantom doing extra CAS and we'd already hit the same cost. E: Also, I figure if we get the Kifrs back here, the pilots can go on their merry way with their 5 million apiece. A delivery fee, not a signing bonus. We don't really want traitors joining up with the outfit, we just want 4 decent jets at 1/4 their usual cost. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 05:08 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 05:03
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Seriously, the price of those vehicles is a rounding error compared to our expenditures, and we (probably) can't do procurement mid-theater again anyway so what the hell else are we going to spend it on? e: man I love edits. Anyway: What we're actually buying them is a bunch of South African IFVs: 4x Ratel 90 (90mm cannon) 4x Ratel 60 (60mm mortar) 2x Ratel AA (23mm AA turret, more or less the same thing that took out Rock Paper/Fungus and Tapco. Also this vehicle is hilarious, apparently the turret's been lifted from some Ukrainian APCs?) 2x Ratel ZT3 (ATGMs) 6x Mbombe 6x6 (basically a south african MRAP) The Count's forces have been able to do precisely dick-all against the dictator's armor so far. Those ZT3s would be huge, and the mortars would certainly go a long way too. Plus they seem to have no anti-air whatsoever and those two AA vehicles could at least keep the Hinds and the like away from them. power crystals fucked around with this message at 05:17 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 05:08
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power crystals posted:Seriously, the price of those vehicles is a rounding error compared to our expenditures, and we (probably) can't do procurement mid-theater again anyway so what the hell else are we going to spend it on? Obligatory hookers and blow answer, even though I 100% agree we should pick up some presents for our boss. Maybe meaningfully mention he should remember we've been real good employees at Christmas.
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May 1, 2017 05:11
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power crystals posted:Seriously, the price of those vehicles is a rounding error compared to our expenditures, and we (probably) can't do procurement mid-theater again anyway so what the hell else are we going to spend it on? Wow, yeah. 15M for that kind of help is nothing. All the bombing by us will do nothing to actually hold ground, so if buying the Count a bunch of 90mm cannon and ATGMs will cost us a bit of scratch I say do it. We get how much for each Lithium mine taken, and how does that compare to this loan?
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May 1, 2017 05:25
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Since I have nothing better to do, I rewatched the footage from the last mission and tallied our kills.
*6 Su-24s *6 MiG-21s *4 Su-30s *2 F-16s *2 Su-27s *1 Yak-28 ECM *1 Chinese AEW That's 32 aircraft down for the lost off 1 Rafale (RIP Silent Bob) and 2 Phantoms. A good trade. That Chinese AEW aircraft hurts them bad. They can't have too many lying around. Same with the Sukhoi 27s and 30s. We have massively attrited their superiority fighter force over the past 3 missions. I know the Dictator is rich, but I don't think he can sustain losses like this. sparkmaster fucked around with this message at 05:36 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 05:29
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Let's not forget he might be losing pilots, too. Pilots are expensive and hard to replace.
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May 1, 2017 05:34
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power crystals posted:Actually that's an interesting idea: what if we try to spot the SAMs by firing cruise missiles at things and seeing where they get shot down? The most American idea I've had yet Beer4TheBeerGod posted:So maybe push hard in the center and east, maybe using cruise missiles against fixed targets to encourage their SAMs to make an appearance and give us something to target? 
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May 1, 2017 05:35
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Added bonus: If no SAMs shoot down the cruise missiles, we cruise missile something! And that's always a special time.
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May 1, 2017 05:37
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Night10194 posted:Let's not forget he might be losing pilots, too. Pilots are expensive and hard to replace. I must have missed that, I apologize! Great minds etc.
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May 1, 2017 05:41
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Yooper posted:Post Grognard Update I'd still picking bits of bone out of my legs at the moment, so I can't make a detailed plan. (Me getting shot down and Yooper's new planning rule coincided rather well) Here are my suggestions. One, focus on interdiction operations. The Dictator has three options to move new aircraft and weapons into the country. Same applies to his oil and lithium exports. Sea, air, or land. His air routes are nor more limited, his land routes, and almost closed. That leaves the sea route. I'd suggest we issue NOTAMs to all pilots and aircraft and NTMs to all sailors that Angola is a no-go zone, unless you're working for us. We do a Cuban Missile Crisis style blockade. Use the UAVs, the S 100, and maybe the Sk 60s with ferry tanks to patrol a 50-100nm exclusion zone offshore. Alert 15 interceptors ready to scramble in support to kill their fighters or transport birds. Von Hoff can probably get a few fishing boats with radio to help us patrol. Ships move slow, so we don't need 24 hour coverage to get a decent picture. Any ship that violates it, we scramble a Gripen with RB 15s to sink it. We need to choke the Dictator financially and stop him from getting more weapons. A blockade is the best way to do that. e: since Von Hoff also seems to have some helos and maybe some light ships -- we could also try to board and seize freighters entering and leaving the country. Two, we focus on ID'ing and destroying the Buks and other air defenses in localized areas in the West. Use the Sperwer, Reaper, and Prowler to sniff out their radars or visually ID them. Then move in a strike package of the Prowler and two Gripens with SBDs to kill them. Clear out enough airspace for our ground attack aircraft to operate with impunity. And keep the ground attackers above 10000 feet AGl so they don't get eaten by AAA... Once airspace is clear, we can provide CAS and let Von Hoff's troops make a thunder run north along the coast to grab as much real estate as possible. If we do want to make any deep strikes, I'd suggest we go after their C3 nodes. Command posts, radio towers, etc. We go after the center of Warden's Five Rings. Won't gently caress up the country too badly once Von Hoff wins and it creates less collateral damage.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warden%27s_Five_Rings As for Operation Kfir Pull. Keep a tanker (ideally the VC10) on standby, along with a least four fighters at Menongue with some SHOARD covering them. The fighters can fly regular CAP and bombing sorties, but should be ready for the Kifr pull. As soon as the Kfirs get airborne across the border, get in touch with them and tell them to go full burner for as long as possible. We try to get them into our airspace as fast as we can. CAP coverd their retreat. Bacarruda fucked around with this message at 07:13 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 05:43
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power crystals posted:I must have missed that, I apologize! Great minds etc. No apology necessary. Two of us thinking the same thing means it's not a terrible idea.
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May 1, 2017 05:44
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Take the The Kfirs are a decent bargain if they arrive and we get 10mil per captured lithium mine so the Ratels will pay for themselves if they eventually get us two. Plus they're already proven themselves in the Angolan arid parts during the past brief unpleasantness...which, come to think of it, ol' Grampa Hoff was probably there for. They'd be better off being used in the central or east regions, imo. Great for moving guys to flank or bypass enemy infantry strongpoints, and can help fast assaults with a surprisingly large amount of direct and indirect fire. But trying to attack entrenched armor head on with upgunned IFVs is no bueno, ATGMs or no. He could split them off for defense against an amor attack, I guess. Whatever, it's his problem.
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May 1, 2017 05:45
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The Angolan Air Force had three hundred or so craft at the start of this operation, but only around 80-90 are combat airplanes (factoring in that they probably bought a couple more in the years between modern day and the in game date), if they continue to take ten to one losses against us they will be out of planes before we are (assuming a comparable rate of replenishment). Of course we'll be quite shot up mind you.
Cimbri fucked around with this message at 06:21 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 05:47
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Very very raw planning idea, looking for feedback more than approval as I'm still struggling with some of the distance issues and the like. This is merely phase 1 (it's meant to be a 24 hour operation so I figured doing multiple missions would be the right way to go.quote:Operation Timekiller The 4 remaining Gripens would act as some form of support patrol (I'm thinking air cover for Tyger Flight but maybe 2 Flights covering Xanadu and Ozymandius and then providing cover for Tyger?) The logistics obviously still need to be worked out, plus the follow up etc. Like I said I'm mostly looking for feedback to see if I have a decent idea or am being an idiot. Renaissance Spam fucked around with this message at 06:13 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 05:54
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I think Id like to see an Eastern focus, but with maybe a sea patrol to pew pew lithium ships. Make them strike their colors, etc. edit: Do the Bulgarians want to surrender yet? Loel fucked around with this message at 06:12 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 06:09
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We don't have the resources to enforce a blockade and trying to cut off the world supply of lithium like that would get international intervention decrying us as pirates from more than just the Chinese, its a no-go
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May 1, 2017 06:18
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god drat dis is some good cmanos
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May 1, 2017 06:21
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UberJew posted:We don't have the resources to enforce a blockade and trying to cut off the world supply of lithium like that would get international intervention decrying us as pirates from more than just the Chinese, its a no-go This is your reminder that Britain, with access to a relatively full navy and many MPAs, was not able to effectively blockade Rhodesia of oil. We would be facing a similar challenge to this with even less resources. A blockade is likely impossible.
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May 1, 2017 06:29
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Will wrote a plan tomorrow, but let me float a target for your approval - http://www.sonangol.co.ao/English/AreasOfActivity/Downstream/Pages/Refinery.aspx
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May 1, 2017 06:53
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Davin Valkri posted:This is your reminder that Britain, with access to a relatively full navy and many MPAs, was not able to effectively blockade Rhodesia of oil. We would be facing a similar challenge to this with even less resources. A blockade is likely impossible. Those operations failed because of restrictive ROE and political considerations. This is within our power to address. The Dictator has been burning ammo, weapons, and planes at a huge rate and he has to have been getting lots of replenishment. If we can knock out even 2-3 of his ships, that'd go a long way towards weakening him. It's also safer to go after ships than to try and kill land targets or SAMs.
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May 1, 2017 06:59
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Currently thinking up a two part plan. First part is aimed at the dictator, called "General dos Santos' Terrible Horrible No-Good Very Bad Day", would involve us trashing the port and naval base at Luanda, taking the airfield at Kuito and ferrying troops there to overrun the center of the country, and eliminating the Bulgarians by bombing and/or surrender before the vehicles we're buying for Von Hoff take Lobito. We can cap it off by just roaming at will engaging military targets. The second part is aimed at the Free State, called "Operation Trololo". We have the defecting Kfirs take off loaded with Mk83 1000lb bombs, then immediately hit the runway and SAM sites at that airfield before flying south to Kuito, which we would have taken earlier in the day. We then launch cruise missiles at the airfield the Kfirs came from, followed by a bombing run against anything that isn't dead yet. Radio the message "So long and thanks for all the planes" in the clear to the Free State after our new Kfirs are safely home.
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May 1, 2017 07:04
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Bacarruda posted:Those operations failed because of restrictive ROE and political considerations. This is within our power to address. Restrictive ROE and political considerations are also a factor here. We blew up one little hotel with a handful of executives and nearly killed the whole war effort. gently caress up the global lithium market and we run the risk of a carrier group being redirected to deal with us like somali pirates e: we've even been warned Yooper posted:
atelier morgan fucked around with this message at 07:28 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 07:22
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UberJew posted:Restrictive ROE and political considerations are also a factor here. We blew up one little hotel with a handful of executives and nearly killed the whole war effort. gently caress up the global lithium market and we run the risk of a carrier group being redirected to deal with us like somali pirates There's also the issue of we won't necessarily know what's ON those boats we sink; yes we are in a warzone so it's not like we'll be blowing up a cruise liner filled with septuagenarian snowbirds eager to see the wonderland that is Angola, but there's plenty of things we could sink that could piss a lot of people off. That being said, I don't think it would be an unreasonable choice to just take out a harbour. We make it harder for that materiel to get to dos Santos and we're basically doing the same as a blockade with far less risk of it blowing up in our faces. Hell, maybe we can convince some of those freighters to swing down to Namibe and drop off their cargo, or buy our shiny shiny lithium.
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May 1, 2017 07:31
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We do have 24 hours, so I want to wait until past nightfall to take out those SA-11s. Probably their only weakness we can exploit is that they don't have infrared cameras, and our UAVs do. At night then they can't even see a Sperwer flying overhead. So I want to hit all their search radars during the day, and then search for and destroy the SA-11s at night when they're blinded. If it turns out the SA-11 is radiating at night, then we have the option of either waiting for it to turn off, or saturating its defenses with two SDB Gripens like we did the SA-10 -- only this time we don't even need to send in a jamming Prowler and extra HARM tornados.
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May 1, 2017 07:34
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Bacarruda posted:If we do want to make any deep strikes, I'd suggest we go after their C3 nodes. Command posts, radio towers, etc. We go after the center of Warden's Five Rings. Won't gently caress up the country too badly once Von Hoff wins and it creates less collateral damage. I'm going to have to dig this out of my dad's old bookshelf the next time I visit: 
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May 1, 2017 07:49
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Bacarruda posted:Those operations failed because of restrictive ROE and political considerations. This is within our power to address. Yooper posted:Yes to both. Yooper, can we get details on where those refinieries are? I feel like that's something we should be aiming to capture. Added Space posted:Will wrote a plan tomorrow, but let me float a target for your approval - http://www.sonangol.co.ao/English/AreasOfActivity/Downstream/Pages/Refinery.aspx I swear to god, it's like some of you people want an international intervention against us. It's a shame that this can't abstract ground operations, it would so satisfying to direct those mortars onto the Bulgarian air defences so we could then bomb them with relative impunity. I feel any plan we have should probably have us perhaps focusing on a Western advance to capitalise on Von Hoff's new toys. Taking Benguala, for example, would disrupt his shipping and improve ours, while hopefully not bringing down the hammer on us. Bombing it would be counterproductive, not only turning the inhabitants against us but then we would need to fix it once we capture it. Hell, could we suggest he sends them up the coast to bypass the Bulgarians (or at least to hit them in the flank)? It seems like their current position would be a bad idea to assault head-on, even with air support. Then again, I suppose if we do take them out, they'll be able to make more major gains anyway. I think we should put our heads together to figure out what the Free State's likely targets are going to be for their air strike the Kfirs will be defecting from. That might be key for planning Grand Theft Kfir.
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May 1, 2017 08:12
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Yvonmukluk posted:It's a shame that this can't abstract ground operations, it would so satisfying to direct those mortars onto the Bulgarian air defences so we could then bomb them with relative impunity. This is actually possible. Systems are also modeled well enough that even if the mortars don't take the air defenses out, they can still damage radars, optics, weapons systems, etc. I'd just be worried that the Bulgarians will start attacking targets with their artillery in turn. Every side has instant and perfect communications in the game, so if we let ground forces start shooting at each other then it might turn into a deadly game of rocket tag.
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May 1, 2017 08:49
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With a 24-hour mission, we can exploit the day-night cycle. We can operate most of our strike aircraft at night. The Free Staters' Kifrs can't. Their air defenses can't spot contrails at night, so they have to rely entirely on their radars (which we can jam). Night is the best to run SEAD. We can break out the Sky Shadows, Tauruses, SBDs, and Paveways. I like the proposal to kill the Buks and the fixed radars from long range with SBDs. It'd also be good to drop some JDAMs or something on their AAA to clear the skies for our CAS birds. Night's also good for deep strike missions. Given the PR issues and the fact we don't want to gently caress up the country further, I think we ought to focus on military targets. Airfields, ammo depots, barracks, command and control, communications, maybe even try and kill off the Dictators with some cruise missiles. The German Tornadoes have the Taurus KEDP anti-runways missile, so they're a good choice for stand-off anti-runway work. Day is when the Kfirs will have to make their break, so we'll need to keep some fighters and tankers ready to escort them to safety. It's also the best time for our light strikers to work, so we should sic them on Western CAS to help Von Hoff break out and take the capital. Psawhn posted:This is actually possible. Systems are also modeled well enough that even if the mortars don't take the air defenses out, they can still damage radars, optics, weapons systems, etc. This is excellent. Combined arms are thing of beauty. Yvonmukluk posted:So yeah, disrupting the shipping may cause us a major issue. If we can get 100% reliable intel that a ship is carrying weaponry? Then yes, I can approve of sinking it, but going after Lithium ships? That's not going to end well. Let's look into our options for spotting and shadowing ships. I think it's worth being able to go after any weapons shipments we spot. As the lithium, we can make our operations deniable -- with the RB 15s, we don't have to overfly the ships. Sinking ships is easier to cover up than bombing mins or ports. Bacarruda fucked around with this message at 09:48 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 09:39
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Yeah, don't think we should hit the ports and interdiction doesn't seem reasonable. Vote for the Guns for Ground and Take the Kfirs. Also airdrop Jack some kegs of whiskey if we can.
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May 1, 2017 10:26
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