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Break it then, let it all burn
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Apr 30, 2017 23:33
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Newer stealth is a step in the right direction, I almost - god forbid - enjoy scarface stealth. I'm just bitter and scarred from one too many loving Framing Frames.
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Apr 30, 2017 23:34
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Of the fact that the cook order changes mid-heist, usually for each cook. And Bain has to look it up each time. Hey, his memory ain't what it used to be what with sniffing all that meth cooking from thousands of miles away. "*SNIIIIFFF* Yeah seems to be cooking fine *SNOOOORT* Uhhh... now what comes next again?"
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Apr 30, 2017 23:40
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Discendo Vox posted:Ooh, thread question: What's the worst concept in Payday 2? Like said, stealth at least semi-works well on some of the maps and newer stealth is even pretty fun. I'd say card drops but then they've largely been obsoleted by continental coins anyway, so they're whatever. It's probably melee in general, just for being so unsatisfying despite having so many fun looking weapons in there. If I'm gonna swing a chainsaw around I wanna see parts fly, it's already there in part too, since Jiro can decap cloakers.
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May 1, 2017 01:26
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the worst concept in payday 2 is having Shadow Warrior masks & melee weapon, yet no playable Lo Wang
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May 1, 2017 01:32
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Discendo Vox posted:Ooh, thread question: What's the worst concept in Payday 2? For still-extant concepts: RNG forms of escape (truck vs boat on Transport: Train, van vs boat on Scarface). As a close second, armour bags. I'm amazed they're still in the game.
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May 1, 2017 02:38
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Being part of the elite Experimental Build Team, I'd have to say the worst thing is headshot values across various difficulties. It would be pretty easy to classify weapons based around the assumed number of headshots they are designed to kill in per enemy. This is the sort of design meta most weapons adhere to. Thus, violating the design makes these weapons incredibly awkward to use even with the addition of a single extra head shot needed. 'Fun for OVK and bad for anything else' is such a common descriptor for weapons for a reason, and it's easy to frame the issue in the window of how many headshots they're designed for. Though even weapons that can be doctored to retain their feel do so by sacrificing any kind of build diversity in the process. It's pretty bad when you're not paying to get something extra.. but instead paying to keep what you already have. I think by now I've tried every primary, and most secondaries, on OVK and DW. Fuuka Ayase fucked around with this message at 02:57 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 02:41
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Discendo Vox posted:
No it wouldn't - as a person who has had knowledge of modifications which disable guard pagers, it's still easy enough to screw up a stealth run by simple blundering or forgetting where cameras and NPC pathing goes. What should be reworked is the "extra security" consequence for wanton guard murder - there should still be a lone guard sent to wander the map, but more as a "taking headcount" measure - once the guard has crossed through every guard node, they should automatically call in an alarm. If the guard is killed or captured at any point prior to this or if an ECM is activated, the alarm will also automatically sound. Maybe change Bain's soundbite to: "The security chatter's getting pretty upset; they're sending someone by to do a final headcount. Finish your poo poo up quickly if you want to get out quiet."
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May 1, 2017 03:06
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I don't see a problem with just calling the mod by name. So long as the individual makes an honest effort to earn achievements without it first. I enable it to do gimmick stealth runs myself, usually revolving around MELEE ONLY challenges. As fun as it is to piss away some time, my experience is the same. It's pretty easy to gently caress up wanton murder sprees. In many ways I find it harder to do than playing legitimately. Simply put, there's far less that can go wrong with simply staying out of sight. There's far more that can go wrong with constantly exposing yourself in the open. The times you really want a guard dead also involve being spotted by mistake, meaning you still lose a pager. I'd wager most people would actively do worse in stealth if they constantly give in to the temptation of 'free' guard kills. As a single solid example; Killing a guard in front of a cam you didn't see is an unrecoverable error. Wandering briefly in to a cam you didn't see can be fixed by a moment of panicked flailing at your keyboard. Either of these are far more likely based on how you play stealth. Murder Sim favoring the former.
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May 1, 2017 03:41
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Word of warning: anybody running Lobby Player Info is advised to turn off the feature that pulls hours played from a person's Steam profile. It's causing hitching and crashes, at least for me, since the last game update.
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May 1, 2017 06:07
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Worst concept is infinite assaults. Used too often
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May 1, 2017 09:13
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Discendo Vox posted:Ooh, thread question: What's the worst concept in Payday 2? Payday 2 isn't a remotely complex game but consensus has it that if you don't have 100 hours under your belt, you don't know poo poo. Then again, the community are morons...
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May 1, 2017 10:14
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Some general Science notes from recent experiments: Yakuza may be a bad deck, but HBV frenzerk yakuza with jokers and aced Transporter is hilarious for lugging around a bag of gold faster than an unencumbered LBV user. Gambler may be a bad deck, and the minigun a bad weapon, but a HBV gambler with aced Body Expertise, aced Fully Loaded, aced Bulletstorm build and a minigun is hilarious and good and a thing you should try. No one in the crew will object to you hogging your ammo bags since you're filling them up with ammo all the time off drops anyway, and the drops are real easy to get with the body expertise'd minigun setup. Ex-Pres and Grinder are both still really good, and reports of their viability demise premature. Crook is excellent, but Rogue is lackluster. I'd rather use a loud Burglar build than Rogue Pubbies think Biker is a bad perk deck. They are wrong. Biker is one of the absolute best perk decks.
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May 1, 2017 11:31
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Gambler isn't bad at all. It's just fallen to the wayside with powercreep. Also Burglar better than Rogue? 
UnknownMercenary fucked around with this message at 12:39 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 12:36
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Discendo Vox posted:Ooh, thread question: What's the worst concept in Payday 2? the penalty for shooting civilians
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May 1, 2017 13:12
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Discendo Vox posted:Ooh, thread question: What's the worst concept in Payday 2? The sheer number of additional layers of crap that has built up over the years. Like, most of them aren't strictly bad or were necessary additions, but there's such a wide variety of obtuse stuff in the game now ranging from the Perk Deck system, to the monthly quests that nobody has a reason to do anymore, to Continental Coins, to Crime Sprees. Or as we were just talking about, even older stuff like Escapes.
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May 1, 2017 13:52
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Discendo Vox posted:Ooh, thread question: What's the worst concept in Payday 2? Jules or House Party update. Same thing in my mind.
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May 1, 2017 14:21
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UnknownMercenary posted:Gambler isn't bad at all. It's just fallen to the wayside with powercreep. Burglar has utility and a few tricks up it's sleeve, but I'll let Chair cover that as he's the one that's been screwing with it. I'll cover what's wrong with rogue specifically, instead. To better understand the nature of dodge, it would be fair to look at it as resist instead. You can convert a percentage chance to dodge in to a percentage based damage resist (ignoring a few quirks in how dodge behaves for now) on a one for one basis. Dodging 50% of all attacks becomes the same thing as 50% damage resist. Why? Don't look as dodging as dodging individual instances of damage from a single enemy. Think of it more like having to dodge 100, or even 1000, instances of damage from a single enemy. For simplicity, treat every attack as having the same damage. If you dodge half of all of them, you've achieved 50% resist. So at 55% standing dodge, it's fair to consider you have 55% effective resist at all times. The problem is defenses don't exist in a vacuum. Raw HP value is itself a form of defense. Granted it's an inferior form that does not inherently scale compared to resist or dodge. Except defenses combine and layer on top of each other, and not necessarily in a linear manner depending on what you are putting together. Rogue has 20 armor before you reach health, and that health does not regenerate innately. Meaning Rogue has 20 points of regening HP value to work with for it's own sake. Full stop. Even if you gave it 55% resist, that's simply not enough to make it's underlying HP value meaningful. You could invest in some form of health sustain, allowing you to tap your otherwise taboo health, but many decks without inherent regen can make the same investment in the same skills for the same effect. The most notable direct comparison is crook, at an astounding 82.4 armor in LBV before any further skill investment. That's just a hair's width over 4 times rogue's armor. Only losing 15% max possible standing dodge in comparison. With the further option to invest MORE in their armor than that. A measly 15% comes nowhere near making up for the lack of HP value even if you don't have the crook invest further in armor. Quite frankly this is such an astoundingly good deal, if you use rogue as the benchmark for dodge builds, that you have to wonder what the hell rogue is doing. The typical rogue build starter kit will inherently rely on skills anyone can take as well. Mathmatically, rogue might be the worst perk deck in the game. Mechanically, it has fewer suitable solutions for it's sake as well. It can't even handle a frenzerk patch work without falling to pieces. It simply doesn't have the innate HP to work with.
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May 1, 2017 14:35
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Dodge as damage resistance is such a false equivalence simply because they're not meant to be played remotely the same way, and 15% dodge goes a longer way than 15% extra damage resist when damage resist gets diminishing returns as you stack more while increasing your dodge increase your chances of fully mitigating an enemy attack. I don't even know why you're thinking of your armor stat at all when considering Rogue; Rogue lives entirely on how much dodge you get from it, as well as the crazy rear end movement and weapon swap speed it grants you. Trying to fit Frenzerker into a Rogue build sounds incredibly dumb when Frenzerker is designed with armor builds in mind and is basically handcrafted for the invincibility frames granted by Anarchist and Armorer. I'll grant you that Crook has been buffed to a state that's comparable to Rogue but I would still say Rogue has the edge on One Down.
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May 1, 2017 15:37
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It's not meaningfully helpful to compare dodge and damage resistance for a number of reasons, but the most important one IMO is the way damage cooldown and dodge interact in a way that gives you more than one dice roll if you're facing a homogenous group of enemies. It's simply not appropriate to treat 50% dodge as if it were 50% damage resistance.
Dr Cheeto fucked around with this message at 15:50 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 15:46
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It's true, dodge is much worse than DR or armor.
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May 1, 2017 15:54
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Discendo Vox posted:It's true, dodge is much worse than DR or armor. For reasons like those I said to ignore for the sake of simplicity of understanding how dodge works. Meaning I was purposefully trying to be kind to make rogue look better than it is. Even then it still looks bad.
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May 1, 2017 16:01
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I've never figured out Biker. Do I treat it like Grinder? Because reading the descriptions, that's what it seems to be, but with an extra element of teamwork because your regeneration is dependent on team kills. Anyone have a good build to offer?
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May 1, 2017 16:10
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Frenzy Biker. The low capped health makes your cool down much shorter. Additionally, active regen stacked with high resist is a good combination. They feed in to the other's potency. As an armor deck, using frenzy to cap your health is also not nearly so dangerous.
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May 1, 2017 16:19
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Burglar build for loud. Works out to being basically Crook in terms of combat abilities, 10% less flat dodge but a bonus 10% dodge while crouching still and a movement bonus to crouching, so in practice you just crouch more and get roughly the same effect. It's like Fuuka said, the issue with rogue is the armor value under the dodge. Suit Rogue gets 20; a decent LBV build gets over 100. 20-30% dodge difference is worth it for ~5x the armor pool to work with. Even suit ex pres winds up better than suit rogue since ex pres can tank with health since it regens constantly. Rogue really needs another 10-20% dodge to fairly compare to Ex-Pres, Crook, Grinder, or even Burglar.
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May 1, 2017 20:17
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John Murdoch posted:The sheer number of additional layers of crap that has built up over the years. Like, most of them aren't strictly bad or were necessary additions, but there's such a wide variety of obtuse stuff in the game now ranging from the Perk Deck system, to the monthly quests that nobody has a reason to do anymore, to Continental Coins, to Crime Sprees. Or as we were just talking about, even older stuff like Escapes. If they can take everything they learned from PD2 and funnel all that down to just necessary and fun poo poo though Payday 3 should be stellar.
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May 1, 2017 20:23
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chairface posted:Burglar build for loud. Rogue hasn't been good since it was first initially nerfed by 5%. 50% base dodge, 25% extra while sprinting, 15% while crouching was the poo poo and I miss it so, but unfortunately Overkill's balancing method of "listen to the idiots screaming in the steam forums" has ruined it more and more over time. It only gets to like 65% max now, right? 75% felt like the sweet spot of balancing a deck that mostly doesn't get hit but when it gets hit it loving sucks, but apparently people sprinting literally through an entire assault wave breaks people's immersion in their serious crime simulator or something
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May 1, 2017 21:07
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I know this is gonna be a can of worms and people will disagree with some assumptions in steps, but I've been working on modularizing build elements, likely someone with more technical know-how than me can turn this into a cool webapp or something, but here's how I make builds with pd2tools modular pieces: Step 1: Armor Suite Choose an armor type below: A. Suit: 16 points B. LBV or HBV: 32 points C. ICTV: 36 points Step 2: Movement/Dodge Suite Choose a movement/dodge model below: A. None (Valid for B w/ HBV or C in step 1): 0 additional points, total cost 32 points w/ HBV, 36 w/ ICTV B. Detection 4 Dodge for Suit (Valid for A in step 1): 13 additional points, total cost 29 points C. Detection 23 Dodge for Suit (Valid for A step 1): 21 additional points, total cost 37 points D. Detection 4 Dodge for LBV (Valid for B w/ LBV in step 1): 13 additional points, total cost 45 points E. Detection 23 Dodge for LBV (Valid for B w/ LBV in step 1): 21 additional points, total cost 53 points Step 3: Conceal/Crit Suite Choose a concealment/crit model below: A. None (Valid for any choice in step 2): 0 additional points B. Detection 4 Crits in Suit (Valid for B step 2) 10 additional points, total cost 39 points C. Detection 23 Crits in Suit (Valid for C in step 2) 16 additional points, total cost 53 points D. Detection 4 Crits in LBV (Valid for D in step 2) 10 additional points, total cost 55 points E. Detection 23 Crits in LBV (Valid for E in step 2) 16 additional points, total cost 69 points So we've spent between 32 and 69 points on armor/movement/conceal/crits, the next decision to make is weaponry, I'm assuming anyone messing around with dodge or crits will be able to adjust weapons to meet detection requirements. Step 4: Weapon Suite Choose a weapon loadout below: A. None (No weapon skills; this is a rough life, but it's free, and the Little Friend + any high-pickup SMG secondary like an UZI can actually work surprisingly well, with or without a silencer skill suite later) - 0 additional points B. Minimal Automatic (Automatic weapons accurate enough to headshot, likely combined with a silencer skill suite later) - 9 additional points C. Moderate Automatic (Automatic weapons accurate enough to headshot, with the capability to pierce tan armor, likely combined with a silencer skill suite later) - 15 additional points D. Heavy Shotguns (SPAS, M1014, Street Sweeper with a Piglet, GL40, China Puff, Arbiter or slug/explosive/dragons-breath-equipped second non-removable magazine shotgun, may or may not be combined with a silencer skill suite later) - 20 additional points E. Minimal Akimbo (Akimbo handguns or SMGs, likely combined with a silencer skill suite later, a secondary GL or 5/7) - 20 additional points F. Autoshotguns (Steakout, Izhma or Goliath, with a Piglet, GL40, China Puff, Arbiter or slug/explosive/dragons-breath-equipped second autoshotgun, may or may not be combined with a silencer skill suite later) - 23 additional points G. Handgun Akimbo (Akimbo handguns, likely combined with a silencer skill suite later, a secondary GL or 5/7) - 28 additional points H. Heavy Automatic (Automatic weapons too inaccurate to headshot reliably, may or may not be combined with a silencer skill suite later) - 30 additional points Step 5: Deployable Choose a deployable suite (I'm leaving out ECMs, Tripmines/Breaching Charges and Turrets under the assumption that they are more advanced choices): A. Ammo Bags (Fully upgraded Ammo Bags) - 16 additional points B. Doctor Bags (Fully upgraded Doctor Bags with Aced Inspire) - 28 additional points C. First Aid Kits (Damage reduction-granting First Aid Kits with Aced Inspire) - 28 additional points D. Ammo Bags with secondary Doctor Bag (Fully upgraded Ammo Bags with an unupgraded Doctor Bag, no Inspire) - 28 additional points E. First Aid Kits with secondary Doctor Bag (Damage reduction-granting First Aid Kits with an unupgraded Doctor Bag and Aced Inspire) - 40 additional points F. 2 +1 Option (Two fully upgraded Doctor Bags OR Ammo Bags with a secondary fully upgraded Ammo Bag or Doctor Bag) - 56 additional points Step 6: Extras 6A: Jokers Choose one of the following: A. No Jokers - 0 additional points B. 2 Jokers (Two 99%-DR Jokers) - 18 points C. 2 Slightly Better Jokers (Two 99%-DR Jokers that convert faster and deal double damage) - 22 points 6B: Silencers Choose one of the following: A. No Silencer Skills (note that since silencers disable Muscle's terror procs, Muscle decks should always choose this) - 0 additional points B. Minimal Silencer Skills (Bonus stability and +15% damage for silenced weapons) - 6 additional points C. Moderate Silencer Skills (Bonus stability and accuracy and +15% damage for silenced weapons) - 10 additional points D. Heavy Silencer Skills (Bonus stability and accuracy and +30% damage for silenced weapons) - 16 additional points 6C: Drill Skills Choose one of the following: A. No Drill Skills - 0 additional points B. Minimal Drills (Faster setup/repair of drills, silent drills) - 1 additional point C. Fast Drills (Faster setup/repair of drills, silent drills, fastest drilling times) - 7 additional points D. Fast Autorestarters (Faster setup/repair of drills, silent drills, fastest drilling times, most-autorestarting chance) - 13 additional points E. All Drill Skills (Faster setup/repair of drills, silent drills, fastest drilling times, most auto-restarting chance, 50% chance to restart w/ melee) - 19 additional points 6D: Melee/Frenzerking Choose one of the following: A. No Melee/Frenzerking - 0 additional points. B. Frenzerk with Pumping Iron (Frenzerk + higher damage melee to all foes) - 28 additional points C. Frenzerk with Bloodlust (Frenzerk + Aced Bloodlust for storing charged high damage melee and faster reloads upon release) - 28 additional points Step 7: Extra Survivability Choose one of the following: A. No Extra Survivability - 0 additional points B. One Additional Down (4 total downs before custody on non-OD difficulties, 2 downs before custody on OD) - 4 additional points C. Swan Song (Option B + Aced Swan Song) - 13 additional points D. Feign Death (Option B + Aced Feign Death) - 13 additional points E. Swan Song + Feign Death (Option C & D combined) - 22 additional points F. Messiah (Option E + Aced Messiah) - 32 additional points Obviously this is leaving out some bits like High Value Target, Tripmines/Breaching Charges, Turrets and lots of other considerations, but it provides some nice tinkertoys to start with even for making builds like those, as they'll still need an Armor Suite, Movement Suite, Weapon Suite, etc.
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May 2, 2017 01:08
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I use rogue builds for OD because the difference between 20 armor and 200 armor means nothing. You need over 225 armor to survive more than 1 SWAT bullet on OD. The only successful builds I've seen are dodge or anarchist/armorer ICTV builds.
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May 2, 2017 05:52
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I wouldn't base any value judgements on OD performance. No one plays OD to have fun. They play it to clear it the once then never look back.
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May 2, 2017 08:12
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Fuuka Ayase posted:I wouldn't base any value judgements on OD performance. No one plays OD to have fun. They play it to clear it the once then never look back. merc literally cannot get hard anymore unless he is facing an unstoppable army of T-1000s
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May 2, 2017 08:14
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Fuuka Ayase posted:I wouldn't base any value judgements on OD performance. No one plays OD to have fun. They play it to clear it the once then never look back. Not quite true, I run only OD with my usual team and pub the other difficulties. OD is the height of artificial difficulty but is also the only level that can offer even a semblance of challenge aside from high level Crime Spree.
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May 2, 2017 12:57
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Wastrel_ posted:Not quite true, I run only OD with my usual team and pub the other difficulties. OD is the height of artificial difficulty but is also the only level that can offer even a semblance of challenge aside from high level Crime Spree. Hello, I'm looking for a group like this to play 1Down with. Pls help. Steam: WASD| bam margera
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May 2, 2017 13:48
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I would personally get bored to death of using the same strict build all the time just to play OD, but if that's what people need to do to get it up at night then I can't judge...
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May 2, 2017 18:06
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idk about you but i start reciting hamlet's 'to be or not to be' monologue when i play one down because his lines about ending the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune sounds exactly like walking across a room with ZEAL swat at the windows
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May 2, 2017 19:36
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I can think One Down is poorly designed poo poo and still have the ability to help people through it without cheesing it with Vox's computer. These are not contradictory positions.
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May 2, 2017 19:35
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Well, when asked what we should do for fun, I'm more the type to say, "hey we should all do loud burglar on overkill!" than, "hey lets play OD!"
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May 2, 2017 19:36
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And my response would be gently caress you I'm not using Burglar.
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May 2, 2017 19:37
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UnknownMercenary posted:I can think One Down is poorly designed poo poo and still have the ability to help people through it without cheesing it with Vox's computer. These are not contradictory positions. what i'm hearing is that you're donating 90% of your paycheck to living metal projects
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May 2, 2017 19:43
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| # ? May 29, 2024 04:59 |
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I don't get your dumb joke. 
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May 2, 2017 20:01
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