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R. Guyovich posted:no you posted a google earth photo which only proves what you say it proves if you assume the entire thing is a potemkin sham in the first place. the best anyone can do is people having the feeling it was fake despite nothing corroborating that belief whatsoever. the guy who's been there over 100 times is a far more reliable source than the dipshits in this thread Other people in the thread have posted a bunch of info from other people who have been plenty of times as well. It seems like you're the only dipshit, here. That's why I was curious if you were getting paid. It just seems nuts to actually come across someone astroturfing DPRK in the wild. Also that one pic is just a small snapshot. You can follow all the major tour routes and they're filled with the same fake bullshit.
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May 1, 2017 14:13
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i also don't know where you got that shot from anyway since i just did google earth on the major parts of pyongyang where landmarks are located and found a bunch of regular rear end buildings. also apparently the skyline is fake from hundreds of angles, too. you guys are very smart
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May 1, 2017 14:15
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it's also classic d&d derangement syndrome to take "the dprk doesn't give a poo poo about the handful of western tourists it gets every year, and definitely not enough to spend billions on making a fake capitol city" as "astroturfing for north korea"
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May 1, 2017 14:17
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R. Guyovich posted:it's also classic d&d derangement syndrome to take "the dprk doesn't give a poo poo about the handful of western tourists it gets every year, and definitely not enough to spend billions on making a fake capitol city" as "astroturfing for north korea" Spending billions implies that 1. people were actually paid for the work they did, and 2. it was built with quality workmanship/materials. You are the only person that disagrees here. Everyone here is saying you're wrong.
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May 1, 2017 14:18
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I'm not on board with the Potemkin village line of argument, but that does raise a question. Homework Explainer, is the North Korean Peace Village on the north side of the DMZ real?
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May 1, 2017 14:22
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Mr. Nice! posted:You are the only person that disagrees here. Everyone here is saying you're wrong. the same "everyone" who were in fear 24/7 despite nearly everyone spoken to after their tour saying everything was fine i don't really care if everyone in this thread is a crackpot gullible enough to believe everything they hear about dprk but everyone believing it doesn't make it right Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:Homework Explainer, is the North Korean Peace Village on the north side of the DMZ real? probably not R. Guyovich fucked around with this message at 14:36 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 14:33
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Well, that's something. Leaving aside some of the more daring claims that have been made, the point is this: in a country where there's a literal list of places a foreigner is allowed to go, and where said foreigner must be accompanied by agents of the state whenever they go sightseeing, the idea that tourism gives one any particular insight into the reality of local life is laughable. You get stuff like the following: Dermot Hudson, of The Korean Friendship Association posted:JC: In relation to the last question, obviously the DPRK is portrayed in western media as a hostile and erratic government. This narrative is constructed with the help of half truths or blatant lies originating from elites in South Korea and Japan. In order to dispel some of these myths, could you describe how the government in the DPRK supports its citizens and what’re some of the benefits from the state that are visible in everyday life? Now, it'll be pretty interesting to see what comes out over time if true unrestricted tourism for Chinese nationals becomes a regular thing. Tacky-Ass Rococco fucked around with this message at 15:13 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 15:11
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North Korea had a higher GDP than south korea up to the 70s and a reasonable one until the 90s and they still have a higher one than plenty of african countries that have cities so I'm not even clear why they wouldn't have a city with a skyline.
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May 1, 2017 15:26
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chitoryu12 posted:Their supermarkets give change in sticks of chewing gum instead of hard cash, so maybe the Chinese really need something to chew on while hitting the slots. Nah, in the Special Economic Zones like the casino is located in, they almost entirely deal in foreign currency and certainly won't bother with gum as change. The catch of course is that North Koreans themselves who do not live within the Special Economic Zones only get limited access to them. Mr. Nice! posted:No one is trying to say that you'll see the military or anything like that on your tour. What started this is people saying that the tours are strictly government controlled and take place along a route that is filled with false buildings and other facades to make the country seem more vibrant and less like a third world shithole. Eh nah most of the tours these days go past actual buildings and such, because they've been built out now. You're still limited to specific areas the government wants you to see. One thing to keep in is that a lot of the "fake" buildings that weren't at the DMZ villages, were projects that had to be suddenly halted partway through construction due to lack of funds and resources, particularly after Soviet collapse. The most prominent example of this is of course the Ryugong Hotel, tallest building in Pyongyang, which sat empty and visibly unfinished from 1992-2008 when it finally started to be worked on again through an international partnership. (Though the Ryugong Hotel is still unoccupiable, as it'll need massive internal refurbishment to become a functioning hotel or anything else) Many of the apartment buildings and such that were reported to just be shells when tourists saw them a decade or so ago are now functioning buildings. I believe that the big apartment complex Kim Jong Un held a fancy opening ceremony for just a few weeks ago was one of those, even.
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May 1, 2017 15:50
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Tias posted:Yeah, no, we're taking them just fine. Hell, millions of refugees would not bring Europe to it's knees. Sure, our politicians and populations are racist fuckholes who paint it that way, but infrastructurally the problem simply does not exist. It's precisely because of that lack of infrastructure and economic prosperity that Lebanon has been able to handle Syrian refugees: the cost of living is low, the range of social services available to the poor is relatively limited, and access to public assistance and basic necessities is even more limited for refugees. Moreover, Lebanon is not attempting to lift their standard of living or rebuild Syria; it's simply permitting them to take refuge in Lebanon for a limited time, after which it expects that they will return to a peaceful Syria that someone else will foot the bill to rebuild. The refugees aren't (officially) allowed to work, their children aren't allowed to attend public schools, and despite that they're still expected to pay for their own housing (or join the legions of ramshackle tents springing up all over the Lebanese countryside) as the government has refused to set up refugee camps. The lucky ones live in barns, garages, and unfinished buildings, as rents on low-income accommodations have tripled while the value of Syrian money has plummeted and many refugees have burned through their meager savings. They've largely taken Palestinian refugees' title as the poorest group in Lebanon, and the enormous stress on Lebanese public institutions has largely been dodged mostly by refusing them access to most of those institutions. Frankly, I want to know where the hell you got your news if you thought that Lebanon was just effortlessly absorbing a 33% increase in population over the course of just a year or two without any problems. Infrastructure doesn't work that way. Obviously, this situation differs in many key aspects from what the collapse of North Korea would be like. For one thing, the surrounding countries wouldn't be able to just stall and buy time while waiting for a successor state to arise so they can send the refugees back. Since such a collapse would almost certainly lead to Korean unification, South Korea in particular would have a very hard time simply excluding North Koreans from society and public services while waiting to send them away. Additionally, the cost of living in South Korea is much higher than it is in Lebanon, and South Korea has much more extensive infrastructure. And of course, South Korea already has an income inequality crisis brewing, with the poor getting worse and worse off while insufficient social services and a week social safety net exacerbate the problems - a situation that won't be helped by adding 25 million new deeply impoverished North Koreans into the mix. And of course, even if South Korea was able to exclude and stall the North Korean refugees, it would just be delaying the inevitable, since South Korea would almost certainly end up footing the bill to rebuild North Korea and integrate the country (and its people) into the South Korean economy and society.
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May 1, 2017 15:56
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:North Korea had a higher GDP than south korea up to the 70s and a reasonable one until the 90s and they still have a higher one than plenty of african countries that have cities so I'm not even clear why they wouldn't have a city with a skyline. During the occupation, Japan invested most of its heavy industry projects like factories and dams for hydroelectric power in the North while the South was hillbilly farmland. They kind of had a head start.
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May 1, 2017 15:59
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Would it be possible for the North Koreans to remain in their homes as long as they weren't blown up, or is everyone going to be forced across the border as refugees? On that note, what are the chances that North Korean civilian areas will be destroyed by the conflict similar to Syria?
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May 1, 2017 16:05
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I feel like it's possible for a place to put on a good face for visitors and make sure people doing PR aren't going off-script without their entire capital being a novelty Western set.
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May 1, 2017 16:20
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chitoryu12 posted:Would it be possible for the North Koreans to remain in their homes as long as they weren't blown up, or is everyone going to be forced across the border as refugees? Any war or other major disruption is going to break down the existing ways people get by for the most part. You may want to stay in your home, but if the local food supply just got cut back to the worst of the 90s famine, you're not really going to be able to do that for long. We can expect that most refugees will stay within the country ultimately, that's how these things tend to go, but there will be millions outright trying to leave and it will be in circumstances where North Korean authority will not be able to prevent that. It would be up to China to guard their border against it, and up to SK/USA to figure out how to handle the situation south of there. You probably wouldn't have civilian areas destroyed in quite the same level and way as in Syria, but there would surely be a lot of civilian death and destruction.
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May 1, 2017 16:22
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chitoryu12 posted:Would it be possible for the North Koreans to remain in their homes as long as they weren't blown up, or is everyone going to be forced across the border as refugees? Depends on a) how much disruption there is to local infrastructure, and b) what happens to the local economy. If access to basic necessities like food and water break down, people aren't going to stick around. Even if the area remains livable, people are inevitably going to migrate to wealthier South Korea in search of economic opportunity and prosperity, and that's especially going to affect educated and skilled workers, causing a brain drain problem. And most importantly, it doesn't matter on a macro level whether people leave or not because South Korea will end up having to pay for the needs of people who stay in former North Korea too.
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May 1, 2017 16:49
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkgLUw7CvK8R. Guyovich posted:the same "everyone" who were in fear 24/7 despite nearly everyone spoken to after their tour saying everything was fine
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May 1, 2017 16:55
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:I agree with you. It just doesn't make sense to me that North Korea would spend all these resources on keeping up a facade just to trick tourists. But I like the Cockerell quote about how North Korea is actually quite normal and banal in terms of day-to-day life, but because it's such a weird and tightly-controlled society that tourists get a really disassociated feeling about what's reality and what's stage-managed. right. from what i've seen it seems most people in the country are like people everywhere else — living their day-to-day lives without much thought given to their political situation. westerners tend to focus only on that because it's literally everything reported about dprk and every story about the country is given that context
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May 1, 2017 16:58
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The Jaka Parker videos on YouTube also provide a window into North Korea. Note that I don't trust this guy, but it's more that I don't trust why he's showing this stuff more than what he's showing -- most of the time. There's one time when his minder wanders into the frame after a car wreck and is blurred out, and then a caption appears: "oh a friend was happening to be passing by." Right. In a sprawling city of 2.5 million in the immediate seconds following a car accident, your friend happened to be passing by and intervenes in the situation while wearing a distinct, bright red t-shirt. But it's interesting to watch these videos since North Korea is trying to (I think) attract outside investment more than anything else. Tourism is important but because that's what we're familiar with, we tend to ignore the importance of foreign business setting up shop. North Korea's entire mobile network was set up by an Egyptian company (which was then not paid and kicked out of the country). Also from what I've read, there is quite a lot of private firms in the DPRK now -- look up videos of Pyongyang traffic jams and see all the cabs operating. These are not really state-owned companies but are kinda dual-tracked. So a company will be private and have one set of paperwork, and then another set of perfunctory paperwork required to be filled out and sent to the state. (Because the company is still "state-owned.") But the reality is that there's a lot of economic activity that's a kind of cutthroat capitalism, and the lack of formal rules about how to manage disputes; not being paid; contracts, etc. makes it all very uncertain. Resolving disputes is about who you know in the upper ranks of the system, your family members and so on. It makes China look like a paragon of private property rights. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 17:18 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 17:13
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I saw 90 posts and thought North Korea had tested a nuke or successfully launched an ICBM.
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May 1, 2017 17:19
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R. Guyovich posted:right. from what i've seen it seems most people in the country are like people everywhere else — living their day-to-day lives without much thought given to their political situation. westerners tend to focus only on that because it's literally everything reported about dprk and every story about the country is given that context Yeah, people tend to think of places that are different like a sci-fi setting where everyone in the setting knows they are in a sci-fi setting so constantly talk and think about the parts of the setting that distinguish their setting from the real world. But in real life something being normal means people talk and think about it directly way less even if it's still shaping their behavior. Like America is one of the few countries on earth that refrigerate eggs, it's really weird, it's a whole thing with how we chemically wash eggs and make them require refrigeration, but we never ever walk around talking to each other about how we are refrigerating our eggs, we just don't even think about it enough to even ask if it's weird. Like you only know things are even things by contrast with some other place.
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May 1, 2017 17:30
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R. Guyovich posted:the belief that as a westerner everything on earth revolves around you apparently extends to tours of a foreign country, where your presence is so important the dprk government sends stern minders to track your every move, rather than some people with basic tour guide training coming along to point out landmarks and not having any answers for your stupid political questions Counterpoint: People who have actually been there. 
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May 1, 2017 18:02
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Main Paineframe posted:Depends on a) how much disruption there is to local infrastructure, and b) what happens to the local economy. If access to basic necessities like food and water break down, people aren't going to stick around. Even if the area remains livable, people are inevitably going to migrate to wealthier South Korea in search of economic opportunity and prosperity, and that's especially going to affect educated and skilled workers, causing a brain drain problem. And most importantly, it doesn't matter on a macro level whether people leave or not because South Korea will end up having to pay for the needs of people who stay in former North Korea too. My thinking in regards to the theoretical refugee problem is that unless the war is destructive on a Syrian level, there's a good chance that a lot of the land will remain livable and relatively free of conflict. The Middle East is home to seemingly nonstop civil wars and guerrilla conflicts that have both turned cities to blasted post-apocalyptic rubble and left the areas a continuous threat to live in or try to rebuild. I can't see a war with the DPRK resulting in an endless low-level insurgency, but rather South Korea completely taking over the area's governing with the aid of other nations. The fact that there's an established government to fight instead of a terrorist insurgency also makes it easier to bring the conflict to a close. In this case, even if the infrastructure is disrupted it's still repairable and in an area that's not being hit by IEDs and mortars 24/7. I don't think it would be necessary to empty out the country for a decade like Syria is currently doing.
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May 1, 2017 18:04
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The government forces usually turn into the insurgency, especially if the US makes a good a job of it as they did with the CPA in Iraq.
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May 1, 2017 18:05
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R. Guyovich posted:the us was so chill and calm in that scenario they put nuclear missiles in range of the soviet union years before the plane was shot down Cuba and the USSR setting up RADARs right next to the US had nothing to do with that. The US didn't throw a tantrum over RADARs or even air defenses in Cuba despite the comparatively poor relationship between the parties involved. Also, again, there are already RADARs with similar capabilities in Japan and on ships and aircraft tooling around in international waters closer than the South Korean THAAD site. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 18:58 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 18:50
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I don't think anyone was suggesting that every regular person that someone came across was an actor. Of course there are normal people going about their normal lives. Their lives just happen to be extremely curated and any deviation is harshly punished. The normal populace isn't full of actors. It's full of people under the oppressive boot of a totalitarian regime with no choice but behave in extremely specific ways. This also does not change the fact that the places that people are allowed to actually visit have large portions that are fabricated entirely for showing off to western visitors.
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May 1, 2017 19:04
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkgLUw7CvK8 That's why I brought up the hypothetical of "if all tourism in the US was required to have government minders and only allowed through government approved areas, would you trust what you saw?" The very insistence on having agents present (of for the few nationalities and areas where you can do tourism without minders, the limited area you're allowed) makes normal things feel fake, and that there's something to be hidden. And it doesn't help that in the past they really were hiding things, particularly in the 90s and early 2000s when things were at rock bottom. Mr. Nice! posted:This also does not change the fact that the places that people are allowed to actually visit have large portions that are fabricated entirely for showing off to western visitors. Again, that's not really the case. Besides things like the border villages which are wholly fake props, not meant to be seen close up, most of the "faked" building is really just things that were partially complete when the Soviets collapsed and stopped sending all that aid. Some of those were then selected to have outward facing components gussied up while the money and resources to really complete them waited. You actually see stuff like that a decent amount in Western cities, just it's usually one building out a few blocks that's left that way due to a bad business deal, rather than a whole street that was in progress. If for whatever reason the new Russia had been willing to continue subsidizing North Korea at the same rate throughout the 90s etc, much of those "fake" buildings would have already been finished. Today, they're slowly being finished anyway on a 25 year lag from when they were supposed to be finished. fishmech fucked around with this message at 19:09 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 19:05
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Mr. Nice! posted:I don't think anyone was suggesting that every regular person that someone came across was an actor. Of course there are normal people going about their normal lives. Their lives just happen to be extremely curated and any deviation is harshly punished. The normal populace isn't full of actors. It's full of people under the oppressive boot of a totalitarian regime with no choice but behave in extremely specific ways. This also does not change the fact that the places that people are allowed to actually visit have large portions that are fabricated entirely for showing off to western visitors. Okay, but if the people that have been to north korea only have false information how do you have real information? By what source does your knowledge originate?
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May 1, 2017 19:19
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chitoryu12 posted:My thinking in regards to the theoretical refugee problem is that unless the war is destructive on a Syrian level, there's a good chance that a lot of the land will remain livable and relatively free of conflict. The Middle East is home to seemingly nonstop civil wars and guerrilla conflicts that have both turned cities to blasted post-apocalyptic rubble and left the areas a continuous threat to live in or try to rebuild. I can't see a war with the DPRK resulting in an endless low-level insurgency, but rather South Korea completely taking over the area's governing with the aid of other nations. The fact that there's an established government to fight instead of a terrorist insurgency also makes it easier to bring the conflict to a close. Oh, I'm not even talking about a hypothetical war. I'm just talking about the collapse of the North Korean government and the opening of the border between the two Koreas. Even if it happens entirely peacefully, it will almost certainly destabilize what remains of the North Korean economy, allow large-scale brain drain as skilled and educated North Koreans head south in search of economic opportunity, and force enormous infrastructure and welfare obligations on South Korea overnight.
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May 1, 2017 20:45
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Okay, but if the people that have been to north korea only have false information how do you have real information? By what source does your knowledge originate? Defector accounts, which are many and varied. They make fascinating reading, although how highly you rate them is up to you. People sympathetic to the DPRK regard them as having little value, being tainted with anti-communist bias and warped by a system which rewards more sensationalist accounts of life in NK with e.g. book deals and TV interviews. Which is fair enough, but as long as we're accounting for biases, surely we ought to treat reports from Westerners on state-run tours with at least as much skepticism?
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May 1, 2017 20:46
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I just want to pipe up about the apartments. Those aren't walls of fake apartments, that's just soviet style development. Certain eras of apartments were very thin and snakey. There would be little to no interior hallways, no "main entrance" but rather dozens of doors along the bottom leading to a stairwell with only 2-4 apartments off each floor. This is because instead of having windows only on one side of the building, you'd have windows on both since your apartment spanned the entire width of the building. This allowed for cross-breezes and to more easily ventilate the buildings, but because the buildings were only 1 apartment wide you'd get these very long narrow buildings. They also tended to build them along highways or main roads Here's some areas I'm familiar with in Kiev, but you can find this pattern of development anywhere that was under the soviet or soviet-inspired yoke.  
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May 1, 2017 21:05
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The US should pull out of South Korea but also give them some nukes instead.
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May 1, 2017 21:12
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Mr. Nice is being dumb, there's a bunch of videos posted by foreign contractors where they just video tape daily life, and there's ton of poo poo in them that a 'carefully curated government' view wouldn't allow, like black-market currency exchanges.
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May 1, 2017 22:43
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Baronjutter posted:I just want to pipe up about the apartments. Those aren't walls of fake apartments, that's just soviet style development. Thanks for posting this, it's really interesting. I think they look strange to Americans since we generally build giant boxes and then slap on as many AC units as needed to keep the interior temperature bearable. Anyways, only 1 week until South Korea's presidential election!
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May 1, 2017 22:50
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I believe Kim Il-sung's birth village is pretty fake, or at least it seems fake as it's basically kept in brand-new condition. (The whole village is probably fabricated / reconstructed, but I'm not sure.) This is typically shown to tourists. The tourists then go "aha! It's all a show!"    But I've also heard an explanation for the seeming fakeness, in that North Korea treats time much more fungibly than we do. History is constantly rewritten. Kim Il-sung is still technically the leader and is venerated as a God, and he's still kinda "with us" (even though North Koreans don't believe he is actually still alive). It's more about the general spirit of the thing and about living in the here-and-now as much as possible. Kim Il-sung's reign and the war with the Americans is not treated as "history" so much (Kim Il-sung can't be allowed to be a mere historical figure), at least in the same way we would treat it, but still part of the "present" so to speak, at least as much as the Workers Party can get away with it. It may seem strange but I would think of it like believing Christ is present in the world now, and then shaping the "historical" sites to reflect Christ's eternal presence. That's the best way I can relate with it. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 23:09 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 22:56
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karlor posted:Thanks for posting this, it's really interesting. I think they look strange to Americans since we generally build giant boxes and then slap on as many AC units as needed to keep the interior temperature bearable. Yep, new buildings never have central HVAC.
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May 1, 2017 23:04
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They are still technically at war with, constantly exchanging sabre rattles with, and being economically targeted by, the United States, so it's not that weird for the origin of that conflict to be part of the 'now'. At least insofar as I understand what's being said. I look at that and I think 'historical reconstruction', are you saying they claim it's the literal original buildings?
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May 1, 2017 23:10
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:I believe Kim Il-sung's birth village is pretty fake, or at least it seems fake as it's basically kept in brand-new condition. (The whole village is probably fabricated / reconstructed, but I'm not sure.) This is typically shown to tourists. The tourists then go "aha! It's all a show!" I remember a few years back the news reported that somebody had set some ancient, historical bridge in South Korea on fire and it totally burned down. It was treated like a horrible loss of a historical landmark. But then they just rebuilt it. And it turned out the bridge had burned down like five times before.
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May 1, 2017 23:15
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:But I've also heard an explanation for the seeming fakeness, in that North Korea treats time much more fungibly than we do. History is constantly rewritten. Kim Il-sung is still technically the leader and is venerated as a God, and he's still kinda "with us" (even though North Koreans don't believe he is actually still alive). It's more about the general spirit of the thing and about living in the here-and-now as much as possible. The actual religious aspects of the cult stuff seem to be a mostly western invention. Like the propaganda in north korea is unfathomably positive about the kims and is full of lies to make them look better with totally unrealistic claims about them in the military and their personal involvement in history and stuff. But as far as I can tell every single time you see one of the really mystical magical things and look more into it it always turns out to be not real. Like the claims about a perfect golf game is just a newspaper reporting a game scored relative to par as if it was absolute and like the claim "he never poops or urinates" is from a quote about believing teachers don't poop and knowing about their personal lives would lessen their authority and how they wanted the same for the party Like there is a ton of totally fake and not even close to real claims in north korea about family members super single handedly doing historical things that they definitely did not do. . But the whole "it's like their GOD" stuff is something to take with a grain of salt. The most magical thing that I can't seem to find as a fabrication from the western media is the claim the kims talk and walk really early as babies. There is plenty, PLENTY of other lies and propaganda but in real life it's more about people being at historical events and less about wizards.
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May 1, 2017 23:27
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Like there is a ton of totally fake and not even close to real claims in north korea about family members super single handedly doing historical things that they definitely did not do. . But the whole "it's like their GOD" stuff is something to take with a grain of salt. The most magical thing that I can't seem to find as a fabrication from the western media is the claim the kims talk and walk really early as babies. There is plenty, PLENTY of other lies and propaganda but in real life it's more about people being at historical events and less about wizards. Maybe it's more like an Ancient Greek hero cult: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_hero_cult BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 23:50 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 23:42
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:No, I think the Kims are pretty much deities and North Korean media has described them explicitly as such. But yeah, like you I take a lot of the "Kim Il-sung pooped gold" stuff with a grain of salt. That seems like a lot of religion bashing for sure, but it seems like a christian missionary group turning it to claims of divinity. Like if some russian had said "lenin is greater than jesus, better than mohammed", you'd take it as just christian and muslim bashing, not a claim lenin was a wizard. The idea they are claiming divinity because they are displacing the christian calendar is just eye rolling. Like gently caress, north korea claims all sorts of wacky crap but that whole religion/magic thing almost exclusively is coming from sensational claims by weirdos. Christian missionary groups do not have a good track record of reporting people's faiths correctly.
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May 1, 2017 23:55
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